Discussion History YMMV / Undertale

Except again, that goes against the game\\\'s aesop, which is \\\"Violence is bad, regardless of the context or situation.\\\" because again, it portrays the monsters heroically when using violence against you in the No Mercy route. It never extends that same courtesy to you, even in the Neutral route, because if the player was ever in a situation where they ended up killing an enemy or boss because they couldn\\\'t find out the way to stop the battle without killing them, or if you didn\\\'t befriend all of the major characters, the game still tells you at least once(twice if you killed someone) that you should\\\'ve done better. To me, that is a shitty attitude; try saying that to someone in real life who had to go through a similar traumatic event and you would be labeled as a douchebag. Even if the player character is a genocidal bastard in that route, by the game\\\'s own aesop, the monsters broke it because the game portrayed them using violence heroically instead of searching for another way to stop you without having to use violence on you. That\\\'s why the aesop is broken, the game pushes such a moral standard to you regardless of the situation, but it doesn\\\'t do the same thing to its own nonplayer characters.

[[spoiler: It was going to end in genocide regardless. If you hadn\\\'t stopped Asgore and the monsters got a seventh soul, whether it be from someone else or from you if you didn\\\'t had the power to Save and Load, then Asgore would\\\'ve still carried out a war against the humans that would end in genocide, and again it wouldn\\\'t have come to that if Asriel didn\\\'t sacrifice himself. Plus, that still doesn\\\'t make the killing of six innocent lives any better, since they were still innocent. At least in the No Mercy route you can argue that the player character is guilty that warranted the use of lethal violence, but that would still go against the game\\\'s aesop of violence being bad and wrong regardless. As for Asriel\\\'s reminder, it still is rendered null and void since the game\\\'s solutions to getting that are still boiled down to being nice to everyone.]]

I\\\'m not advocating an absolute white and white, sugary-sweet lovey dovey where everyone\\\'s nice to everyone: the game is, as shown with the Pacifist route. And I never said \\\"violence is bad\\\" is an entirely impossible aesop to have. That is your assumption, and I don\\\'t appreciate you strawmanning me like that. I think pacifism has it\\\'s place, but because it\\\'s not always applicable in real life, there are valid reasons to not agree with it, and I don\\\'t think it\\\'s morally better or superior, and in worse cases it can be foolish and selfish in regards to other important matters. But just because I don\\\'t like or agree with a pacifist moral doesn\\\'t mean I think it\\\'s impossible to do one in a story, but it needs to be done with a lot of thought and effort put into it. A lot of pacifist stories that I\\\'ve read can\\\'t do such an aesop right, and I find Undertale\\\'s take on it to be just as poorly executed.

Except again, that goes against the game\\\'s aesop, which is \\\"Violence is bad, regardless of the context or situation.\\\" because again, it portrays the monsters heroically when using violence against you in the No Mercy rout. It never extends that same courtesy to you, even in the Neutral route, because if the player was ever in a situation where they ended up killing an enemy or boss because they couldn\\\'t find out the way to stop the battle without killing them, or if you didn\\\'t befriend all of the major characters, the game still tells you at least once(twice if you killed someone) that you should\\\'ve done better. To me, that is a shitty attitude; try saying that to someone in real life who had to go through a similar traumatic event and you would be labeled as a douchebag. Even if the player character is a genocidal bastard in that route, by the game\\\'s own aesop, the monsters broke it because the game portrayed them using violence heroically instead of searching for another way to stop you without having to use violence on you. That\\\'s why the aesop is broken, the game pushes such a moral standard to you regardless of the situation, but it doesn\\\'t do the same thing to its own nonplayer characters.

[[spoiler: It was going to end in genocide regardless. If you hadn\\\'t stopped Asgore and the monsters got a seventh soul, whether it be from someone else or from you if you didn\\\'t had the power to Save and Load, then Asgore would\\\'ve still carried out a war against the humans that would end in genocide, and again it wouldn\\\'t have come to that if Asriel didn\\\'t sacrifice himself. Plus, that still doesn\\\'t make the killing of six innocent lives any better, since they were still innocent. At least in the No Mercy route you can argue that the player character is guilty that warranted the use of lethal violence, but that would still go against the game\\\'s aesop of violence being bad and wrong regardless. As for Asriel\\\'s reminder, it still is rendered null and void since the game\\\'s solutions to getting that are still boiled down to being nice to everyone.]]

I\\\'m not advocating an absolute white and white, sugary-sweet lovey dovey where everyone\\\'s nice to everyone: the game is, as shown with the Pacifist route. And I never said \\\"violence is bad\\\" is an entirely impossible aesop to have. That is your assumption, and I don\\\'t appreciate you strawmanning me like that. I think pacifism has it\\\'s place, but because it\\\'s not always applicable in real life, there are valid reasons to not agree with it, and I don\\\'t think it\\\'s morally better or superior, and in worse cases it can be foolish and selfish in regards to other important matters. But just because I don\\\'t like or agree with a pacifist moral doesn\\\'t mean I think it\\\'s impossible to do one in a story, but it needs to be done with a lot of thought and effort put into it. A lot of pacifist stories that I\\\'ve read can\\\'t do such an aesop right, and I find Undertale\\\'s take on it to be just as poorly executed.

Except again, that goes against the game\\\'s aesop, which is \\\"Violence is bad, regardless of the context or situation.\\\" because again, it portrays the monsters heroically when using violence against you in the No Mercy rout. It never extends that same courtesy to you, even in the Neutral route, because if the player was ever in a situation where they ended up killing an enemy or boss because they couldn\\\'t find out the way to stop the battle without killing them, or if you didn\\\'t befriend all of the major characters, the game still tells you at least once(twice if you killed someone) that you should\\\'ve done better. To me, that is a shitty attitude; try saying that to someone in real life who had to go through a similar traumatic event and you would be labeled as a douchebag. Even if the player character is a genocidal bastard in that route, by the game\\\'s own aesop, the monsters broke it because the game portrayed them using violence heroically instead of searching for another way to stop you without having to use violence on you. That\\\'s why the aesop is broken, the game pushes such a moral standard to you regardless of the situation, but it doesn\\\'t do the same thing to its own nonplayer characters.

[[spoiler: It was going to end in genocide regardless. If you hadn\\\'t stopped Asgore and the monsters got a seventh soul, whether it be from someone else or from you if you didn\\\'t had the power to Save and Load, then Asgore would\\\'ve still carried out a war against the humans that would end in genocide, and again it wouldn\\\'t have come to that if Asriel didn\\\'t sacrifice himself. Plus, that still doesn\\\'t make the killing of six innocent lives any better, since they were still innocent. At least in the No Mercy route you can argue that the player character is guilty that warranted the use of lethal violence, but that would still go against the game\\\'s aesop of violence being bad and wrong regardless. As for Asriel\\\'s reminder, it still is rendered null and void since the game\\\'s solutions to getting that are still boiled down to being nice to everyone.]]

I\\\'m not advocating an absolute white and white, sugary-sweet lovey dovey where everyone\\\'s nice to everyone: the game is, as shown with the Pacifist route. And I never said \\\"violence is bad\\\" is an entirely impossible aesop to have. That is YOUR assumption, and I don\\\'t appreciate you strawmanning me like that. I think pacifism has it\\\'s place, but because it\\\'s not always applicable in real life, there are valid reasons to not agree with it, and I don\\\'t think it\\\'s morally better or superior, and in worse cases it can be foolish and selfish in regards to other important matters. But just because I don\\\'t like or agree with a pacifist moral doesn\\\'t mean I think it\\\'s impossible to do one in a story, but it needs to be done with a lot of thought and effort put into it. A lot of pacifist stories that I\\\'ve read can\\\'t do such an aesop right, and I find Undertale\\\'s take on it to be just as poorly executed.

Except again, that goes against the game\\\'s aesop, which is \\\"Violence is bad, regardless of the context or situation.\\\" because again, it portrays the monsters heroically when using violence against you in the No Mercy rout. It never extends that same courtesy to you, even in the Neutral route, because if the player was ever in a situation where they ended up killing an enemy or boss because they couldn\\\'t find out the way to stop the battle without killing them, or if you didn\\\'t befriend all of the major characters, the game still tells you at least once(twice if you killed someone) that you should\\\'ve done better. To me, that is a shitty attitude; try saying that to someone in real life who had to go through a similar traumatic event and you would be labeled as a douchebag. Even if the player character is a genocidal bastard in that route, by the game\\\'s own aesop, the monsters broke it because the game portrayed them using violence heroically instead of searching for another way to stop you without having to use violence on you. That\\\'s why the aesop is broken, the game pushes such a moral standard to you regardless of the situation, but it doesn\\\'t do the same thing to its own nonplayer characters.

[[spoiler: It was going to end in genocide regardless. If you hadn\\\'t stopped Asgore and the monsters got a seventh soul, whether it be from someone else or from you if you didn\\\'t had the power to Save and Load, then Asgore would\\\'ve still carried out a war against the humans that would end in genocide, and again it wouldn\\\'t have come to that if Asriel didn\\\'t sacrifice himself. Plus, that still doesn\\\'t make the killing of six innocent lives any better, since they were still innocent. At least in the No Mercy route you can argue that the player character is guilty that warranted the use of lethal violence, but that would still go against the game\\\'s aesop of violence being bad and wrong regardless. As for Asriel\\\'s reminder, it still is rendered null and void since the game\\\'s solutions to getting that are still boiled down to being nice to everyone.]]

I\\\'m not advocating an absolute white and white, sugary-sweet lovey dovey where everyone\\\'s nice to everyone: the game is, as shown with the Pacifist route. And I never said \\\"violence is bad\\\" is an entirely impossible aesop to have. That is YOUR assumption, and I don\\\'t appreciate you strawmanning me like that. I think pacifism has it\\\'s place, but because it\\\'s not always applicable in real life, there are valid reasons to not agree with it, and I don\\\'t think it\\\'s morally better or superior, and in worse cases it can be foolish and selfish in regards to other important matters. And just because I don\\\'t like or agree with a pacifist moral doesn\\\'t mean I think it\\\'s impossible to do one in a story, but it needs to be done with a lot of thought and effort put into it. A lot of pacifist stories that I\\\'ve read can\\\'t do such an aesop right, and I find Undertale\\\'s take on it to be just as poorly executed.

Except again, that goes against the game\\\'s aesop, which is \\\"Violence is bad, regardless of the context or situation.\\\" because again, it portrays the monsters heroically when using violence against you in the No Mercy rout. It never extends that same courtesy to you, even in the Neutral route, because if the player was ever in a situation where they ended up killing an enemy or boss because they couldn\\\'t find out the way to stop the battle without killing them, or if you didn\\\'t befriend all of the major characters, the game still tells you at least once(twice if you killed someone) that you should\\\'ve done better. To me, that is a shitty attitude; try saying that to someone in real life who had to go through a similar traumatic event and you would be labeled as a douchebag. Even if the player character is a genocidal bastard in that route, by the game\\\'s own aesop, the monsters broke it because the game portrayed them using violence heroically instead of searching for another way to stop you without having to use violence on you. That\\\'s why the aesop is broken, the game pushes such a moral standard to you regardless of the situation, but it doesn\\\'t do the same thing to its own nonplayer characters.

[[spoiler: It was going to end in genocide regardless. If you hadn\\\'t stopped Asgore and the monsters got a seventh soul, whether it be from someone else or from you if you didn\\\'t had the power to Save and Load, then Asgore would\\\'ve still carried out a war against the humans that would end in genocide, and again it wouldn\\\'t have come to that if Asriel didn\\\'t sacrifice himself. Plus, that still doesn\\\'t make the killing of six innocent lives any better, since they were still innocent. At least in the No Mercy route you can argue that the player character is guilty that warranted the use of lethal violence, but that would still go against the game\\\'s aesop of violence being bad and wrong regardless. As for Asriel\\\'s reminder, it still is rendered null and void since the game\\\'s solutions to getting that are still boiled down to being nice to everyone.]]

I\\\'m not advocating an absolute white and white, sugary-sweet lovey dovey where everyone\\\'s nice to everyone: the game is, as shown with the Pacifist route. And I never said \\\"violence is bad\\\" is an entirely impossible aesop to have. That is YOUR assumption, and I don\\\'t appreciate you strawmanning me like that. I think pacifism has it\\\'s place, but because it\\\'s not always applicable in real life, I don\\\'t think it\\\'s morally better or superior, and in worse cases it can be foolish and selfish in regards to other important matters. And just because I don\\\'t like or agree with a pacifist moral doesn\\\'t mean I think it\\\'s impossible to do one in a story, but it needs to be with a lot of thought and effort put into it. A lot of pacifist stories that I\\\'ve read can\\\'t do such an aesop right, and I find Undertale\\\'s take on it to be just as poorly executed.

Except again, that goes against the game\\\'s aesop, which is \\\"Violence is bad, regardless of the context or situation.\\\" because again, it portrays the monsters heroically when using violence against you in the No Mercy rout. It never extends that same courtesy to you, even in the Neutral route, because if the player was ever in a situation where they ended up killing an enemy or boss because they couldn\\\'t find out the way to stop the battle without killing them, or if you didn\\\'t befriend all of the major characters, the game still tells you at least once(twice if you killed someone) that you should\\\'ve done better. To me, that is a shitty attitude; try saying that to someone in real life who had to go through a similar traumatic event and you would be labeled as a douchebag. Even if the player character is a genocidal bastard in that route, by the game\\\'s own aesop, the monsters broke it because the game portrayed them using violence heroically instead of searching for another way to stop you without having to use violence on you. That\\\'s why the aesop is broken, the game pushes such a moral standard to you regardless of the situation, but it doesn\\\'t do the same thing to its own nonplayer characters.

[[spoiler: It was going to end in genocide regardless. If you hadn\\\'t stopped Asgore and the monsters got a seventh soul, whether it be from someone else or from you if you didn\\\'t had the power to Save and Load, then Asgore would\\\'ve still carried out a war against the humans that would end in genocide, and again it wouldn\\\'t have come to that if Asriel didn\\\'t sacrifice himself. Plus, that still doesn\\\'t make the killing of six innocent lives any better, since they were still innocent. At least in the No Mercy route that the player character is guilty that warranted the use of lethal violence, but that would still go against the game\\\'s aesop of violence being bad and wrong regardless. As for Asriel\\\'s reminder, it still is rendered null and void since the game\\\'s solutions to getting that are still boiled down to being nice to everyone.]]

I\\\'m not advocating an absolute white and white, sugary-sweet lovey dovey where everyone\\\'s nice to everyone: the game is, as shown with the Pacifist route. And I never said \\\"violence is bad\\\" is an entirely impossible aesop to have. That is YOUR assumption, and I don\\\'t appreciate you strawmanning me like that. I think pacifism has it\\\'s place, but because it\\\'s not always applicable in real life, I don\\\'t think it\\\'s morally better or superior, and in worse cases it can be foolish and selfish in regards to other important matters. And just because I don\\\'t like or agree with a pacifist moral doesn\\\'t mean I think it\\\'s impossible to do one in a story, but it needs to be with a lot of thought and effort put into it. A lot of pacifist stories that I\\\'ve read can\\\'t do such an aesop right, and I find Undertale\\\'s take on it to be just as poorly executed.