Young Justice

I guess it was supposed to be a message: I want endanger our mutual agreement, so don't you either or else?

Of course, since this alliance started with Darkseid undeniably being in the stronger position and he still seems to be in the stronger position, it's debatable if that's a wise point to make or not.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 1st 2019 at 12:32:40 PM

I've seen Gargoyles. I liked it. Thing is that the villains argue amongst themselves more (Demona and Macbeth hate each other, Demona pulls one over on Xanatos, Xanatos spends a good chunk of season 1 in prison etc) whereas the light whenever we see the leaders on screen they're complimenting each other or if there are arguments it's limited to the help taking issue.

I like young justice but at times it feels like Greg Weisman is WAY to enamored with his villains, nor can he accept that most Visionary Villains are really just selfish monsters who would let the world burn if no one accepted THEIR vision.

Okay stop projecting your belief on what a villain should be always be.

That’s not an actual critique.

I am guessing he wanted to retain his relationship with Darkseid, but not bring deception into the mix. Still it could have backfired, hell Darkseid may have lied to him anyway and plans to attack. As Metron stated that it was likely that Darkseid would kill them all.

So, here's something interesting regarding voice acting. Teen Titans Go has run for 5 seasons and over 200 episodes, and has used 56 voice actors. This series has gotten 72 episodes over 3 seasons , and has used 116 voice actors. Talk about irony. The show with less episodes has used more voice actors.

Edited by jessicadicicco610 on Sep 1st 2019 at 10:21:01 AM

Maybe but the light does bounce back from things that should do more damage (ie Kaldur’s sting operation should have resulted in at least lex being incarcerated alongside brain and manta, the lights existence should be more public)

But no. I do think that most visionary villains are either fill of shit or so narcissistic they do more harm than good and that Weisman is in denial about the former

Edit: complex villains can work (I like new 52 orm and ozymandias) but fanboys thinking the villains are right pisses me off and there are people who say that the light are the good guys

That more reasonable villains make heel turns is also a factor

Edited by LordYAM on Sep 1st 2019 at 10:28:44 AM

Again projecting & getting upset at the fandom Dracoing villains is an utterly pointless act.

They always Draco the villain, that’s just how it is.

I feel like a difference between the Light and the antagonists in Gargoyles is that the latter characters had very close and passionate relationships with each other. Demona and Macbeth are former friends and possible lovers turned mortal enemies while Xanatos is an embodiment of everything that Demona hates but feels she has to work with in order to further her goals. There's a lot of intense feelings there that the Light doesn't have.

By contrast, the members of the Light seem to have purely professional relationships with one another and don't really, say, try to mix business and emotion. Their interactions are almost purely goal-oriented most of the time, and I get the feeling that whether they like each other on a personal level is largely irrelevant.

Even so, it's not true that there's no friction between any of them or their underlings. An example of that would be Sportsmaster turning against the Light in season two, and needing to be replaced with Deathstroke. Or them plotting and scheming against Granny Goodness in this season. Also, the group clearly has no particular loyalty to any of their ranks — when a member fucks up too badly and gets captured (i.e., Ocean Master, the Brain and Black Manta), they make no efforts to bust them out and instead just replace them.

I don't think Greg has any delusions about the Light being anything other than the bad guys, and I don't think he intends for the viewer to think of them as anything else. Vandal is a charismatic aspiring dictator, and he can make people uncritically idolize him. But ultimately, he's seeking power, and has been doing so since before he even knew about Darkseid or other extraterrestrial life.

Edited by DrDougsh on Sep 1st 2019 at 10:34:13 AM

I said before I was referring to the leaders arguing. Sportsmasters the help not a leader so using him isn’t a good example. The abandoning members who are in jail is a better one as is the granny stuff. Though one has to wonder why the arrested members never pull their guts on their fellows (I sure wouldn’t be loyal to the guys who abandoned me to prison)

Also I never tried to say Greg never intended them to be the bad guys. What I take issue is the fact many are sincere when in practice those who THINK they are sincere are as utterly selfish as the guy who floats about doing it for money.

I brought up Unalaq and Nighthawk a while back. They both genuinely believe that they are saviors but both of them have a lot of narcissism mixed in (ie they feel that if society doesn’t do things THEIR way than everyone else can burn). Again they may even believe their own hype but if push comes to shove they’ll choose themselves over the world

Edited by LordYAM on Sep 1st 2019 at 10:49:22 AM

From what we've seen of Vandal, he's no less narcissistic. His daughters' attitude towards him suggests he's raised them to practically worship him as their god and saviour. The guy clearly has a massive Messiah complex.

As for the captured Light members, I don't think they do have any continued loyalty to the group. Orm definitely didn't, what with him prioritizing his own revenge over following the Light's rules, and paying for it with his life. More likely, they just don't have that much compromising information to give authorities on the group. Which makes sense, because really, the only Light member who's vulnerable to legal action is Lex, and I don't see why the Brain, Manta or Orm would have any credible proof of his illegal activities.

The Light might be easier to understand if we knew what their ultimate goal was. It's conceivable that these guys would fight amoungst themselves more, if it weren't for the fact that every one of them was also committed to the ultimate goal of the Light, whatever that may be, and prioritized that ultimate goal over fighting with other members of the organization.

We know what the Light’s end goal is now, or at least we know Vandal Savage’s: he specifically both wants Earth to be powerful enough to never be threatened and under his control in that regard, because he believes himself the only authority capable of guiding the world. Savage’s win condition is to be able to take out Darkseid and declare Earth the kingpin of the universe.

In this season that goal expresses itself as them wanting a monopoly on Earth’s most powerful resource: metahumans and “heroes.” While at the same time appeasing Darkseid’s desire for the same.

Luthor wants that as well, but seems to primarily care about the “under our control” aspects. The rest of them are either aligned in part with the goal or are there for personal reasons, or (like Luthor) a balance of both.

The Light is odd, in that they're more slow and steady about ruling the world. And it is odd that Kaldur didn't get any dirt on Lex, and you have to wonder what is being shared with various intelligence agencies. I don't think any theoretical Markovian intelligence agency, or the EU, would take a threat to Markovian sovereignty lightly. But this series is focused on young heroes. And the Light has faced set backs. For 'but why would they work together', Queen Bee has clearly benefited from working with the Light, as has Lex Luthor (not to mention the Light's goal fits his view of human supremacy). I'll admit it's weird they never argue on screen, but we can chalk that up to 'we're focused on the heroes and their drama', and there is evidence that loyalty is dependent on usefulness.

In regards to Vandal and Darkseid still having their deal I would imagine it depends on how their conversation went since at most we have an shortened version rather than what was exactly said.

Why is it odd that Kaldur got nothing on Lex. Lex never interacted with Kaldur.

The Light was involved with the reach drink, as was lex corp. He also could have accessed the light's database if possible

It’s funny, because they’ve evidently had solid dirt on Luthor all this time, but just didn’t use it because Conner didn’t want to.

Probably because Conner was the "dirt", so to speak.

Which is kind of hilarious. "Hey Conner, can we use you to finally bring down Lex Luthor?" "Nah, I want to live a quiet life." "Okay."

TBF, it would have been kind of assholish to demand that Conner "come out" (in a matter of speaking) to score a blow against Lex Luthor.

Edited by M84 on Sep 1st 2019 at 9:36:43 PM

I mean, I can get that.

The way he came into existence was probably not something he wanted to get any guff over.

Still I expect a lot of people who knew him (like his High School mates who aren't members of the Team) are pretty surprised at the reveal....I think. Wendy noted he hadn't aged in Five years (but probably though he just does so gracefully) but I figure there must have been a few people who were suspicious.

Oh, I don't blame Conner for not wanting to come out. I just find it funny because s2 and s3 had the heroes use all sorts of plots to get one over on the Light. And Conner did so just by using his existence in a minute. Hell, if he had done that before the end of season 2 then all the issues caused by Lex being Secretary General would have been avoided.

Kaldur trying to access the Light's database would be very difficult if not impossible. Not only would it be likely very guarded against lower members like him but Kaldur was very likely put under a huge microscope due to formerly being associated with the heroes.

Clarion managed to escape right?

Yeah. We see him in the Light's video conferences later. I mean, I guess he could be communicating from within the Tower of Fate, but that seems unlikely.

I doubt the Light has any common database with all of their info on it. Manta probably does not have access to any sensitive information from Lexcorp or Bialya or anything like that. All of the public members' connections to one another is probably mostly or entirely off the books.

Lex, Queen Bee and Bad Samaritan are kind of the only remaining "public" members of the group, though, so it's not that big a stretch. And of those three, Queen Bee wouldn't be open to any kind of legal prosecution as the head of state of a sovereign country anyway. Now that Lex is out of office as UN head, Bialya might be open to sanctions, though. The rest of the members are presumably wanted fugitives, so getting info on their activities doesn't really mean much if you can't physically capture them or their assets.