The Wheel of Time

Got to agree; I can think of a bunch of ways the character could be handled, but considering that the show will need to prune a bunch of characters and subplots to wrap up in a timely manner anyway, and Balthamel isn't exactly critical to the plot, I think the whole Aran'gar business simply being cut is the most likely.

It's wholly possible they simply won't have a lot of the Forsaken.

Which would suck because I love all of the Forsaken. Even the shit ones.

Gimme my useless boy, Aginor.

Especially the shit ones. Well, the intentionally shit ones, anyway. Fuck you Demandred.

I genuinely can't think of a Forsaken I don't like in some way. Maybe Be'lal. But he gets damn near NOTHING to do. Even less tham MY BOY Aginor.

Aginor at least has a Mad Scientist thing going on.

Aran'gar is kind of important, so I'm not sure they'd be dropped entirely. One way around it is to make Balthamel a woman from the start, and when she gets her new body, the Dark One makes her a one-of-a-kind saidin channeler.

The Dark One's ability to make a woman a Saidin channeler would probably raise more questions than anything. I would suggest making the second body male as well and say he was disguised as a woman.

Why not make Balthamel kind of a fluid guy in general prior to the body swap? So when it happens he isn't really bothered by it.

I guess then you run into the "The only gender fluid character is a villain" thing.

Edited by GNinja on Sep 5th 2021 at 4:11:06 PM

All of this would require a good bit more intricate explanation than the makers of television shows usually care to do.

Given how much of the cosmology of The Wheel of Time is based on traditional notions about the genders, I wouldn't expect the TV adaptation to do much with gender-fluid folks (the way Jordan conceived of things, I don't think the One Power would know what to do with gender-fluid folks) or trans people—though I'd be happy to be proven wrong, and interested to see how they swing it if so. Perhaps there are rare instances of people born male being able to channel saidin, and people born female being able to channel saidar, and this is Wheel of Time code for trans people? Perhaps the One Power turns them into the other gender, which is why it appears that there are no male channellers of saidin, or female channelers of saidar.

Edited by Robbery on Sep 5th 2021 at 10:22:44 AM

I honestly feel like the gender binary is so central to the WOT cosmology that trying to bring in trans or genderqueer themes would just clash horribly with it.

The question there is whether to try to update the story and address the issue, or just leave it as-is. There's honestly good arguments for both.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd be more supportive of updating the story if Jordan were still alive to give his opinion on it. Rewriting one of the main themes of the series (even if they haven't aged gracefully, to put it mildly) when the author is dead just seems... distasteful. I'm sure there's a "death of the author" crack to be made.

Robbery: You have saidin and saidar reversed. Saidin is the male one, and saidar is the female.

The gender role thing has the potential to be awkward, but they're clearly taking some liberties already. Like, it's a big plot point that The Two Rivers has been isolated for centuries yet in the show has quite a bit of racial diversity, so maybe Harriet will let them have a Supernaturally Validated Trans Person.

Edited by VampireBuddha on Sep 6th 2021 at 8:58:14 PM

I believe the showrunner has also said that they'll be putting a lot more emphasis on the "pillow friends" and reinterpreting Rand and the girls' relationship to be polyamory rather than polygamy, as well.

It's a hallmark of any gender-exclusive institution that same-sex relationships would occur there pretty frequently, from convents and monasteries to private schools to prisons (it's interesting to note that in the past same-sex relationships have been viewed in a variety of cultures as childish rather than "wrong," something that one is supposed to leave behind when one reaches adulthood). One imagines they'd be especially prevalent in the White Tower, given that by and large most men seem to try to actively avoid the Aes Sedai; it's interesting to note, though it was never especially commented upon that I remember, that such was not the case (that men avoided them, not that same-sex relationships occured, as I'm sure they did) with the Wise Ones of the Aiel or with the Windfinders of the Sea-Folk, who had much closer ties to their respective societies (the dangers of sequestering yourselves in a literal ivory tower, one expects).

I recall that we heard about "pillow-friends" fairly early in the series, while I don't remember there being any reference to male homosexuals until after Sanderson took over (there was, I think, a noblewoman who was trying to interest some general, and Faile thought she was wasting her time as Faile knew the general "preferred the company of men").

I remember Nyneave and Elayne taking passage on a boat where Nyneave was surprised to discover that the captain actively disliked women (or at least disliked having them as passengers on his ship, as he viewed them as troublesome passengers), though he did reputedly have a wife and children at home. She claimed he was the first man she'd met who actually seemed to genuinely dislike women, so she drove herself nuts trying not to complain or be disagreeable and thus potentially justify his opinion.

Edited by Robbery on Sep 10th 2021 at 11:04:55 AM

I think Jordan at some point drops a line about "men who have no interest in women", but I don't have the books with me and I'm damned if I'm going to go through all of them to find one specific line.

For what it's worth, The Shadow Rising makes it clear that Rhuarc's wives are married to each other as well as to him. There's a bit... somewhere in the books where Egwene ponders that there don't seem to be any Aiel women with two husbands, but there's no reason they can't change that for the show. For some reason I think Sorilea would work well there.

I think Jordan's view on the subject was that the multiple wives usually viewed each other as sisters. I don't know if that was always the case, and the TV show is certainly free to interpret it any way they want.

I recall as well the Aiel Wise Ones saying that few men ever elected to undergo the ritual that made two people siblings (the one Elayne and Aviendha went through, to become "sisters"). Make of that what you will.

Historically, polygamy came about in cultures where, for some reason or another, marriageable people of one sex or another—usually, but not always men— were hard to find. This is not to say that there was a shortage of men, necessarily (though sometimes that was the case) but a shortage of men considered marriageable—that is, wealthy by the standards of their people, or at least able to sufficiently provide for his spouse. Usually, the rules of such an arrangement dictate that the man be able to provide and maintain separate households for each spouse.

A woman having two husbands is pretty rare, and I've only read of one culture where that happened (which is not to say it's the only one), and in that case it only ever occurred when two brothers would share a single wife, and in that case only because that's the best arrangement their family could make for them.

On the subject of the upcoming show's racially diverse cast in light of The Two Rivers being a fairly isolated area, it occurs to me that, in The Eye of the World (or possibly at some other point) the Emond's Field council discusses the rumors of war, one of the consequences of which they see as refugees likely moving into the area. We see this happen later in the series, with people from other lands settling in, and bringing new crafts and such to the area; Haral Luhhan the blacksmith takes on a whitesmith—a term I didn't know existed, but I suppose I should have (a whitesmith works in lighter-colored metals like pewter and tin, and the term is also used for someone who does finishing work on steel)—for instance, and Cenn Buie the thatcher partners with a newcomer who makes roof tiles. It isn't said outright, but one gets the impression that such things have happened in the past, if possibly not for many years. This might easily account for a degree of apparent racial diversity in the Two Rivers.

Edited by Robbery on Sep 11th 2021 at 10:06:20 AM

And it's a boring thing to have to justify in a fantasy world (or, indeed, in a period piece) anyway because people have always moved.

I like Sanderson enough that I wish the Jordan estate would let him write the Seanchan trilogy.

I dont think its (just?) the Jordan Estate thats opposed to the idea of him writing those books. Sanderson himself doesnt want to since he feels Jordan would not want him to do more. Furthermore why should he try to play second fiddle in Jordans universe, when he is already one of the most well liked and successful fantasy authors currently writing?

Personally i would like Sanderson to stay far away from major projects in other authors universes (and vice versa). The man has an incredible output, but even with that his remaining plans for the cosmere are ambitious. Also personal bias against Wheel of Time (i have weird feelings/oppinions regarding the series).

@Ninety, after Native Jovian's post:

It's late so I'm just going to toss in this penny I found in my back pocket: you're...kinda making that sound pretty bloody skeevy, much more skeevier then it seems to be. Like they'd be rewriting his will, is the tone I get, not that I'm saying you're doing that, just that it kinda comes off like that.

I...also don't think it would be narrative-contradicting or destroying? It'd be an interesting little challenge, in fact. If the "central conceit" hasn't aged very well, it'd be nice to see an adaptation "update" it, as, well, that's one of the benefits of adaptations: the ability to make changes.

Edited by fredhot16 on Dec 2nd 2021 at 11:25:04 AM

For what it's worth, Harriet McDougall and Brandon Sanderson both have consulting roles, so any changes have at least been approved by people directly involved in writing the books.

Rafe has ultimate say though, and has disagreed with those two on several points.

I'm not meaning to ascribe malice to Rafe or any of the other showrunners, but the series has already made massive changes to pretty central lore concepts, as I hear. Like Egwene being a ta'veren and a possible candidate for Lews Therin's reincarnation, which just completely flies in the face of the saidin/saidar split.

As to the showrunner "rewriting Jordan's will", I mean... yeah? You're saying yourself that the central conceit is due for an update. It's fine if you think that, but if you're (general you) taking a central pillar of the setting (however outdated or problematic it might be) in the divide between men and women and start to ignore, alter or invert it because it's more in agreement with your values, then I'd say it's fair to say you're rewriting the author's will. I'm not even saying it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's just what's going on.