I actually wanted to be Resileaf
Necessary or not, it is humerous that an important plot point will get resolved off-camera because of raiding limitations.
Team Rocket Boss.
Honestly, I would prefer it be locked behind raid progression, so maybe that way LFR might get more use here. Worked for Denathrius's post raid quest.
It just took me out that Anduin had this big dramatic moment with ghost dad and Saurfang off camera just when we were getting ready to invade.
Edited by RedHunter543 on May 26th 2022 at 12:34:09 PM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Lost in Space
Consider what happens if someone in your group hasn't beaten Anduin and done the follow-up Crown of Wills quest. Do they get locked out of the last three bosses in the raid? Are they unable to access the Crucible and upgrade to tier gear?
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Team Rocket Boss.
Well yeah.
Incentive to get people to help to clear Anduin either with the guild or LFR.
Like FF XIV has the same system of unlocking raid tiers by having to clear the other ones so you can get access to gear.
Edited by RedHunter543 on May 26th 2022 at 12:39:13 PM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Lost in Space
All so you don't get out of sync in story progression? Sorry, no. Most players will not agree with that.
Unlocks were tried early on in WoW and they were near-unanimously hated by everyone except the hardcore elitists who resented that other people should be given what they had to work for. At a minimum, as long as any one player in a group has unlocked content, everyone in the group should be able to do it. Otherwise you are creating classes of players, and that never ends well.
Edited by Fighteer on May 26th 2022 at 12:42:20 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Team Rocket Boss.
There's difficulty tiers for each raid, like LFR, normal, heroic ETC.
So just give the LFR more incentive for the hardcore raiders so the solo players can clear the raid tier, then prog.
Works for FF XIV, it locks the raid tiers behind story progression and have the higher difficulties for the hardcore people to clear.
Edited by RedHunter543 on May 26th 2022 at 12:45:11 PM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Lost in Space
What? Incentivize progression raiders to "slum it" in Raid Finder so that more casual players can catch up on story content, so that those players can unlock world content? That is absolutely insane.
Raid Finder doesn't even unlock until a week after a raid opens, and in the case of Sepulcher the wing with Anduin doesn't open until much, much later. By that time, organized raids will have cleared the instance multiple times. You are saying, "Join a real raid guild or miss the story, unless a big boy deigns to come down and hold your little pleb hand?"
No, no, no, NO.
Edited by Fighteer on May 26th 2022 at 12:48:51 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Team Rocket Boss.
Bro you need to chill out. It's okay, playing with casuals isn't going to hurt you.
System worked for FF XIV after all, and that MMO is doing far better.
Or maybe just leave all the story elements at the end of the raid like Legion did?
No wonder LFR is so bad, the rewards for it are a pittance.
Edited by RedHunter543 on May 26th 2022 at 12:53:23 PM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
Raids opening in a staggered manner is itself something of a problem, if you ask me. "Congratulations, you've beaten the third boss, now you can wait a week or two for the next part of the raid to open!"
Team Rocket Boss.
Gotta milk that subscriber money somehow.
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Lost in Space
Wow, and I get accused of being abrasive. If it helps you to accuse me of elitism, knock yourself out, but I am being anti-elitist. I want all players to be able to experience the story without arbitrary gating. Content unlock requirements (other than simple time gating) are anti-casual.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Team Rocket Boss.
Well you did make that over the top reaction to the idea of playing with casuals. 
And "GASP" cringing at the idea of helping "plebs" progression in raids.
Edited by RedHunter543 on May 26th 2022 at 1:07:12 PM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Lost in Space
I don't enjoy random matchmaking, period. It has nothing to do with casuals vs. elitists; I am equally fed up with people who act all snobby in Raid Finder and kick players for not knowing the mechanics on the first week as I am with people who raid with both fingers up their nose and do less DPS than the healers. It's just not worth my time.
Let me note that you are the one who suggested that organized raiders should be incentivized to help out Raid Finder groups, as if they are too dumb to beat the content by themselves.
Edited by Fighteer on May 26th 2022 at 1:08:51 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Team Rocket Boss.
Well yeah, some of the LFR groups are first timers who want to fight the raids but don't have guilds, so why not incentivize experienced players to help out new ones?
And note, I said that the LFR system is terrible because of the awful loading times, not because people are dumb, that's on you, you're the one describing how awful WOW players are.
Again, random matchmaking works far better in FF XIV. Hell you can't even progression past lvl 50 unless you clear the first series of Alliance raids that need 24 people, in a raid that's been around since 2014. But people still have no problem getting past that because the Duty Finder in FF XIV actually incentivizes veterans to help out noobs.
Edited by RedHunter543 on May 26th 2022 at 1:11:56 PM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Lost in Space
I don't play FFXIV. I don't know anything about it, save how people keep going on about it being better than WoW, so these comparisons are lost on me. I'm just a grump who prefers group play only when it's with players I know because I have no patience for the majority of players whom I don't know.
If you like Final Fantasy better, go play that. No skin off my nose.
Edited by Fighteer on May 26th 2022 at 1:15:14 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Team Rocket Boss.
Fair, let's drop this, because we're both becoming increasingly unpleasant at this point and continuing this is pointless.
SO! Moving on to another lore discussion, what's the history of Azeroth learning Fel magic? Like the Orcs of Draenor learned it from Gul'dan who learned from Kil'jaeden, so how did the people of Azeorth learn of it?
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
International Man of Mystery
IIRC people on Azeroth first learn about Fel magic during the Burning Legion's initial invasion attempt, with the Highborne seeing it as even more potent than Arcane magic. At least Illidan received Fel powers in War of the Ancients and Xavius also did so when he got resurrected as a Satyr.
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
First warlocks probably were Night elves when the Burning Legion was first contacted, then stopped existing in great numbers until the Orcs invaded. Eventually, through continued contact against the Burning Legion, some mages would eventually be attracted to the Burning Legion's power and contact it for power.
Team Rocket Boss.
Makes sense that the Night Elves would be the first Azerothian Warlocks but they also confused it with Arcane Magic too? Or just thought Arcane magic was dangerous since it attracted the Legion in the first place? It would make sense for Tyrande and Malfurion to eliminate all knowledge of fel magic save for how dangerous it is and how to counter it, since no Night Elf can be a warlock.
I'm actually quite interested to learn how regular people contract demons in the Twisting nether or open up communications with the Legion itself. It makes sense that the mages of Dalaran would be quite interested in the magics that the Orcs used.
Kel'thuzad in particular must have been amazed at Gul'dan's death knights.
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Team Rocket Boss.
Doing more Zareth quests, and I realize Ven’ari is nowhere to be found. Where is she? I miss her.
Does she show up later or not? Unlocking the secrets of the first ones to make profit is her primary motivation after all.
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
The Pun Dragon
She fell into the "This expansion is a failure, wrap it up and move on" hole, the closest we get to the conclusion of her story is a single quest at max rep.
It's a shame that this expansion will (rightfully for the most part) go down in the game's history as a worse Dork Age than WOD, because I do think we had some great and fun characters introduced like Ve'nari, Denathrius and Marileth.
Edited by NaraNumas on May 26th 2022 at 5:05:48 AM
Oh, bother.
We've actually already encountered the original Night Elf Warlock Xavius. Though by that point he hasn't been a Night Elf for a very long time.
Edited by M84 on May 26th 2022 at 9:30:02 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
I don't really consider satyrs to count as warlocks, since they're demons themselves.
Oh, bother.
Xavius at least started out as a Warlock before being "remade" by Sargeras into the first Satyr. Xavius then turned other power-hungry Highborne into more Satyrs.
It kind of seems like the Legion-aligned Highborne aside from Xavius skipped straight to the "become a demon" stage thanks to Xavius.
Edited by M84 on May 26th 2022 at 9:48:16 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
My guild beat Anduin after the world unlock as well. Clearly some other group of adventurers got to him first. It's not feasible to have the world story and your personal story sync up when the world story depends on the raid, unless you prefer to be locked out of world content until you've beaten particular raid bosses.
And by that I mean world content that helps with progression; it's fine if the boss defeat quest has purely RP-based follow-ups.
Shadowlands has a lot of campaign content that links to raid progression, so if your character hasn't beaten the boss in question, the campaign catches you up by showing you the relevant cutscene(s) and then moves on.
It's either this or keep raid and world progression locked away from one another, which is something that many players have complained about in the past. You can't have it both ways.
Edited by Fighteer on May 26th 2022 at 12:12:17 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"