Persona series

He's also drawing influence from his V As past role of Char Aznable, a guy who took over Zeon that were literally Nazis in space, while he was an omnicidal egomaniac.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 18th 2019 at 9:07:48 AM

This whole convo really should be moved to the Japan thread, it is inappropriate for this thread.

I mean, we're talking about a character in the game, aren't we?

P Ersona 5 is literally a game about trying (And mildly failing) to tackle issues with Japanese Society.

Its going to come up, even if its on the Japan thread or not.

This honestly feels like criticizing Persona 5 for what it never tried to do in the first place. P5's theme may be rebellion, but upon further analysis it's specifically "rebellion against corrupt authorities". Almost all targets are people who abuses their powers and authorities for personal gains. When the thieves target the people as a whole, it's because their sin is Sloth, the sin of letting bad things be and not doing good things. P5's message to society is basically "Holy shit, dudes! Why are you letting these jerkwads do whatever they goddamn please??". It's a criticism against a pretty specific aspect of Japanese society.

Consider it Values Dissonance, but with how homogenized Japan is, this is probably a more important concern to them rather than discrimination against minorities, unlike in the western world.

Considering how those views are tied into corrupt authorities in real life? Not really. Yakuza are heavily entrentched in the Right Wing politics of Japan. Evrn trying to present themselves as "good guys". Not to mention the abuse of corruption in the police alone is extremely heavy, getting so bad cameras were installed in an attempt to counter it. P5 even showing how well that works.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 18th 2019 at 10:56:00 AM

Uh, yeah? Persona 5 explicitly says that abuse of corruption is a problem that society needs to stand up against. Are you saying that authority abuse is what leads to discrimination?

Regardless, I feel like handling society's stigma against the minorities deserve an entire story on its own, not crammed in P5's already packed plot. P5 did leave some threads hanging in case they want to follow up on them. Hey, maybe a speculative Akechi-based spinoff would handle that, what with him being discriminated bastard child.

Im saying those kind of authority figures use said discrimination to help benefit themselves. Its part of their corruption, not magically separate from it. Part of the reason they can step on those around them is because a lot of their victims are kids, and discriminating on the younger generations is itself a tale as old as time.

From what I know of it, the plot of Q2 is about individuality being quashed.

We're saying Persona 4 and 5 display a pattern of maintaining the status quo of Japanese society by removing offending influences. These problems are bad solely because of an outside force, not because Japan's own societal issues created those situations to begin with. It's reflected in the Social Links and Confidants of these games as well, since no matter what none of those characters ever "rock the boat" and try to really change themselves or the society they live in.

Contrast Persona 3, where the story and Social Links don't have this problem because they are explicitly themed about things you can't change and must learn to live with.

Even though it is societal issues do help give rise to these issues? Many of them were themselves shaped by societies influence on them, and its only when their desires become too distorted that they separate from it. Peoples sloth was directly born of how Japanese values societal harmony over everything, including morality, and many of those people know about corruption, like Kamoshida, but as long as they benfitted from it parents and teachers turned a blind eye to it to benefit themselves. In other words society welcomes corruption if they think it aids it.

Yaldabaoth himself reflects that. He's Order over Morality taken to its natural conclusion as a YHVH EXPY made by all of Society. Not to mention corruption in the likes of police still exist and the like still, with only a minority like Sae being willing to do whats right. This is really emphasized with how the Police are the ones not affected by the panic caused by Mementos merging with reality, even as the Archangels died.

But I'm sure part of it could be they weren't really clear what they were doing. With them delving more into it with PQ 2 as Asterism remided me.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 19th 2019 at 5:16:13 AM

That should be the case in practice, but the game never does anything with or about Japan's faults as a society. The game is focused on, at best, individuals taking advantage of said society for their own gains with some lip-service to serve as backstory.

We're shown with Kamoshida and the Police otherwise, because the Volleyball Kids knew he was abusing them, and if they didn't hide the abuse their parents did. Like the Principal as well.

But you're right that's really the only time it comes into action. Beyond that they don't try, which is probably why Yaldy feels tacked on to some.

Granted I feel showing evil people playing a broken system for their own benefit is relevant commentary in and of itself.

In the past when the topic of politics in games has come up, I did try to mildly defend P5 by saying it's more philosophical than political. It is not a game about Japan as such but a game about the human condition. This makes sense as all Persona games are about this. Japanese politics is simply being used as the lens in which the same issues are tackled that were tackled in P4 and P3 and P2. Those issues are the frailty and flaws of human beings and the possibility that we can all change and become better.

Politics is a secondary concern to the main concern because Japan of now doesn't matter. It's one country in one point in time and will probably cease to be at some point just like most countries. Persona meanwhile is concerned with timeless, universal questions like can we improve ourselves, can we improve ourselves so that we can make a better world when that time comes.

I find myself completely agreeing with Nikkolas every time he posts here lately. It's surprising, but I really like it because he words it better than I could. Thanks.

Edited by Yumil on Jan 19th 2019 at 4:07:49 PM

Yes Order Versus Chaos is eternal. The battle has no end. That's what the universe runs on. Whether humans are destroyed or enslaved in the process these chaotic beings will crawl from the muck to defy it.

That and happiness prevents the Heat Deah of the Universe.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 19th 2019 at 7:06:57 AM

Huh that’s a good comeback to Kyuubey

Nah if anything it makes it worse, considering Philemons avatar Nodens is the one who says it. Spawned a few of Philemon Kyubey pics back when EPP was released for the PSP. Cause, y'know, the bet he started.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 19th 2019 at 7:19:35 AM

Kyuubey is that adorable little cat thing, right?

Never watched Magoca Madoka

@ Yumil

Hey, thank you! I aim to seem vaguely insightful. The Persona games are pretty great and I'm sad it took me so long to give them a try.

Although this means I got to start with FES and Golden so maybe it's all for the best.

It's rare for me to agree with one of Nikkolas' posts, but that's not a bad way to look at the Persona games. I already explained how 3 was entirely about living with things you can't change, which is one of the cornerstones of human condition topics, and thematically its possible to make the same argument for 4 and 5.

I mean, the "human condition problem" addressed in 3 is not death, which is indeed insurmountable. The thing to be overcome theee was the fear of death or a perverse longing for death. It's been a while but I feel like P3 was channeling the idea of the Death Drive. The heroes rejecting Ryoji's offer is them saying death is nothing to tremble at or run away from. Turning away from the inevitable won't save you.

All the Persona games talk about this. Running away from death in 3, burying your head in the sand and languishing in ignorance in 4, surrendering to apathy and giving up your autonomy in 5... All of them are about fleeing from the harshness of reality and essentially wasting the life you've been given.

You can disagree with this position of course but it's the thesis the Persona games run on.At least from my reading. Don't want to be arrogant and say I'm right and the sole valid interpreter of these games I've only beaten once.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jan 19th 2019 at 7:36:44 AM

I don't want or mean to be redundant Nik, but nothing you said about Persona 3 challenged anything I said. It's because you can't change anything about death that you have to learn to live with it, such as learning not to fear it. Persona 3's social links aren't directly about death, but they do keep to that same thematic point of learning to live with things in life you can't change. And barring an optional event in FES that still results in a death of personality, nothing in the games main plot or Social Links goes against that.

Oh, okay. I see what you mean. I was the one being a bit redundant there. Sorry about that.

Some meme about Persona spinoffs◊