The Military Thread

Switchblades are blade weapons

Minse does have a point. XD

It's both a small bladed weapon, AND its wings deploy like said knife's blade.

You guys missed the joke

Pendrake: the link in your post is dead.

I believe you might be confusing USV and CUSV: the former is a general term for a category of craft much like UAV, the latter is the name of a specific system. Note that in the press conference where this was discussed it was stated that US Vs were being sent, not CUS Vs. You can also look at the official Do D fact sheet [1], which specifies Unmanned Coastal Defense Vessels and not Common Unmanned Surface Vessels. The Navy has plenty of other USV types, many of which would make a whole lot more sense to be sending. If I had to hazard a guess I’d say they’re probably sending MARTAC T-12’s, which fit with that description and have a very light footprint in terms of logistical support needed.

There’s no armed version of the Textron CUSV because, much like the Switchblade 600, the thing is barely out of the concept phase yet. There are four of them, all hand built. That’s it. As far as anyone can tell, they are all at NAVSEA presumably getting ready for weapons testing which is supposed to happen early next year. There’s also no classified CUSV, like I mentioned at the top that term refers to a specific vessel. There are definitely classified US Vs, though. As far as whether classified equipment is being sent to Ukraine, that depends on whether you’re referring to so-called “black budget” programs or simply any equipment that has a security classification associated with it. The former, not likely. This isn’t a James Bond movie. The risk of the Russians capturing sensitive equipment is way too high. The latter, almost certainly, as most military equipment will have one aspect or another that’s been classified.

The second.

All the list on Oryx's site says is "Unmanned Coastal Defense Vessels"

It's under his "Answering the call" Foreign aid page under Naval assets at the bottom.

And I do mean the latter. It's likely something the US was going to have go fully public soon and show off anyways, and it being used in Combat by the Ukrainians gives them a chance to field test said system in combat conditions. Anyone's guess as to what exactly its setup is, though.

An article about the US Vs being sent does theorize it's either the CUSV or MANTAS T-12 that got sent, though, the second being considered due to the fact Ukrainian Sailors were spotted training at the base the T-12 went through its test trials at. Might be used to eyeball and target designate Black Sea Fleet ships for Neptuns or those Block 1 Harpoon Land Batteries the Danes are sending.

Edited by Pendrake on May 25th 2022 at 11:56:14 AM

Please, please link sources. "An article" could be from a reputable defense journalism outlet or from Newsweek, and especially these days defense journalism needs to be scrutinized quite a bit. The authors of that article, for example, don't seem to be aware of the fact that only one of those systems can actually be sent anywhere.

All of the systems being discussed here are a matter of public record. This is the case for most military equipment, but just because a program is public doesn't mean parts of it aren't classified. For example, something like the exact range of a tank's main gun, or the chemical makeup of the RAM coatings for aircraft. You seem to be referring to a "black project", a colloquial term for a project that is classified from top to bottom and kept entirely secret. There is a snowball's chance in hell any projects of that nature are in Ukraine. Things like that are generally kept within CONUS and certainly kept out of active and confusing warzones.

As a side note, what's with the fixation on Harpoon content? The amount of news coverage about them is insane (and seemingly like 75% clickbait) and people talk about them nonstop. Ukraine doesn't even want the things, and yet here we are. Have I been overlooking some kind of fandom for this particular weapon?

Edited by archonspeaks on May 26th 2022 at 12:35:22 PM

It is, as far as I'm aware, the primary anti-ship missile used by the US, otherwise I dunno.

The USV donation was announced directly by the US State Department and he was deliberately vague on it. And Oryx has been pretty reliable about confirming announcements of things: https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html Bottom of this list, has a further link to the announced list, per John Kirby.

As for the Harpoon "Fixation," it's more the fact that it is an ASM they'll be able to use. As far as I'm aware, the Neptun is Ukraine's sole ASM and they only came out within the last two years, so they're not a particularly numerous system, not to mention Russia's been attempting to prioritize blowing up its production facilities. And anything that forces the Black Sea fleet back to standoff ranges is a good thing for Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1529780002065195008 On a note for that, Ukraine's gotten 14 more Su-25 Frogfoot Strike Aircraft donated from various partners in "disassembled" form lately.

Edited by Pendrake on May 26th 2022 at 5:46:28 AM

LRASM and the SM-6 now cover the majority of the anti-shipping role for the USN, I believe. Harpoon is getting a bit long in the tooth.

Do you have links for the analysis you’ve been citing? That’s just a list of items.

And not to be flippant but “Harpoon is an A Sh M they’ll be able to use” is a little comical when you consider that they actually won’t be able to use the majority of the ones that countries have proposed sending them. I mean, all other issues aside, Denmark retired their Harpoons from service in 2003 and their land-based launchers are configured for the original RGM-84A Block 1. There’s no guarantee those systems are in working order right now much like the UK’s.

Harpoon is just the flavor of the week for the internet talking about all the wunderwaffens the Ukrainians are getting sent.

First it was NLA Ws, then Javelins, Switchblades (weeks before they were even sent) Byraktar, Neptunes for a few days, Pz H-20000s, CAESAR.

Twitter and the like just blow up whatever current system or buzzword gets mentioned and treats it like something amazing is happening.

I'd imagine that HIMARS or whatever it's spelled is next in line. Nobody cares about gasoline.

HIMARS has been there for a while now and seems to have slipped under the radar.

If anything that's good proof how much all this is just an internet meme and not really related to how important or useful the systems are to the Ukrainians right now.

Edited by LeGarcon on May 26th 2022 at 1:40:23 PM

It seems that artillery is the Boring, but Practical weapon since it doesn't get memeified that much (who makes songs and videos about self-propelled howitzers, compared to missiles?) but they are hugely useful against practically anything.

The vast majority of casualties in any conflict ^note not that battlefield casualties are the be-all-end-all of a conflict fought since the 20th century have been inflicted by artillery.

Yeah, this is kind of what I figured. Everyone on Twitter suddenly being interested in defense stuff is exhausting.

To be fair to Twitter, pre-February online military discussions also tended to overemphasize technical traits of weapons systems at the expense of their purpose, numbers and logistical tails.

Most of them still are, they just change what they're talking about every other week or so.

See anything about "Saint" Javelin protecting our brave Ukrainian boys.

South Korea's OPLAN for the decapitation of North Korea's leaders was leaked to North Korea

Last month, a ROK Army captain from the 'decapitation brigade', the special forces unit tasked with taking out enemy leadership in case of war was arrested for selling secrets to a North Korean agent in exchange for Bitcoin. When he was arrested, it was reported that he sent photos of army security procedures and the login screen for the ROK's joint C 4 I system. However, his indictment said that the OPLAN for his field battalion was leaked. The North Korean agent asked for the OPLAN for his brigade too, but he was caught trying to take pictures of them. Investigators say he also sent a document titled 'Evaluation of Identifying Enemy Personnel/Equipment'

That's no good.

Is there an article on this in english anywhere to share around?

Is that the OPLAN that used to go by "Korean Massive Punishment and Retaliation" before the Moon Jae-in admin renamed it?

Can't find any right now. I'll try to post it if I come across any articles in English

Yes, it was part of KMPR.

Harpoon Missiles are still widely fielded by the US. It is going to take a while for LRASM to fully replace it. It is also operated by a number of nations outside the US. Harpoon Missiles are not going out of service anytime soon

The SM-6 is not an anti-shipping missile by any measure. It can be fired at surface targets but that is an ancillary role and meant more as a backstop to other options. It is not filling in the anti-shipping role for Harpoon or any other purpose built anti- shipping missile.

The US has shipped some solid artillery pieces to Ukraine. There was that vid of the Russians missing with a LAM it was diving on a gun battery supplied by the US.

Edited by TuefelHundenIV on May 26th 2022 at 8:47:03 AM

And I didn't claim that Harpoons would "instantly clear the Black Sea." At this point, the only one who's claiming stuff newly being added to the Ukrainian Arsenal is wunderwaffen is you two.

The only thing that I was saying is that they'd help support Ukraine's native Neptun ASM in making sure the Black Sea fleet has to keep its distance from Odesa and allow Ukraine to defend more of its coastline. And something being retired from active service doesn't mean it's useless, even against modern equipment (CIWS can be overwhelmed by volume, for instance). The fact Ukraine's GRA Ds, Mig-29s, Su-24s and Su-25s, all of which are 40-50 years old at this point are still holding on, intercepting, or even taking down far newer equipment is proof of that.

On a side note, there has been mention that the US is going to okay sending MLRS to Ukraine within the next week or so, and something to keep an eye out for news on. Some HIMARS, but given how few there are compared to M270s (and Poland's recent order of 500, which is more than have even been produced so far), it's likely the bulk of said shipment would be M270s, which there are a few thousand of.

Speaking of older Equipment, those T-62s the Russians're now fielding iirc do have some issues with having a lot weaker armor than even the T-72 or T-64, and those 115mm guns are going to cause some ammunition supply issues as well, as, if I assume right, 115mm is not a standard round size for Russian tanks (I believe 120mm is?). They're still going to be dangerous due to the sheer quantity, but I imagine the sheer number of T-62 losses coming up is going to be horrendous.

I have done additional reading. Denmark still uses Block 1 Harpoon Coastal defense batteries. They're specifically attached to their "Fishery Protection" unit, not the Navy proper, but they're still in service. Likely just as second line, but I highly doubt the Danes would just sit and let their Harpoon stock for them go without proper maintenance and replacement if they're still actively using them. And the Harpoon is still produced. My home country is still one of the ones that uses them, specifically on our Halifax-class Frigates.

Edited by Pendrake on May 26th 2022 at 9:34:45 AM

Thanks. I don’t keep up on naval stuff as well as I should.

I can’t help but feel like the talk about A Sh Ms is a lot of hot air though, considering nobody seems willing to actually hand anything over or offer anything besides leftovers.

Uhhh…I’m not sure what you’re responding to, but I don’t think anyone here said that. On my part, I certainly didn’t imply that older means worse. My post above was a reference to the shelf-life of mothballed missiles, which is known to be so-so.

I would strongly suggest doing some additional reading on these topics, most of what you find online (National Review, defense You Tube, etc) really shouldn’t be taken at face value. The quality of defense journalism online can be horrendous at times and it’s very easy to tell when info has been pulled from poor sources. Over in the Ukraine thread I posted a big list of reliable sites for defense coverage, I’ll track it down and link it here as well.

Gonna put this in a new post for clarity’s sake, the ups and downs can be hard to follow. L

I think you may be confusing Denmark’s ship-launched Harpoons, which are still in service, with its coastal batteries which were retired in 2003. [1] Ship launched Harpoons are not necessarily compatible with the coastal launch system, and the launch system in question is configured for the original first generation Harpoon, which has numerous differences from modern ones. There’s no reason to think Denmark has been maintaining whatever stocks of these they have left over, that’s not what militaries do with things like that.

If I might politely suggest something, maybe try some new sources. A lot of the claims you’ve been bringing to the table seem like they come direct from tabloids, if you’d like I’d be happy to pull up that list of sources I mentioned and see if I can’t add a few more on.