Type-Moon: Fate/stay night, Tsukihime, and Kara no Kyoukai discussion

Eh, it's humans. They will find a way to fuck it up.

This sure was a pagetopper.

A better one would be: “Pass the chicken.”

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Still accurate, though.

Might as well use the opening to segue into a topic I wanted to say something about.

So I don't mind stories that focus on Immortality Immorality when they remember to really focus on the immoral part, because the issue is inherently a Fantastic Aesop. Kinoko Nasu remembered to do this in the past, that's why I liked how he handled Dead Apostles and Zouken. Throwing away your humanity in search of or for a near eternal lifespan actually meant something bad in those cases. My problem with the modern Nasuverse is the decision to make the setting's mechanics bend to Nasu's real-world opinion of species wide immortality being bad because we aren't ready yet. The result tends to be arguments with no real substance when applied to new stories.

Amakusa's Heaven's Feel plan in Fate Apocrypha isn't bad in terms of ends, just barely worth criticizing on the means, and the only reason it could have failed is both the arbitrary notion that a Servant making that wish causes the whole thing to glitch up, and the idea of the universe being pruned because of an unsupported idea that humanity would stop trying to do anything else with themselves.

Luckily Goetia's plan is better about this because it involved a horrific amount of genocide to perform. So while it also conforms itself more to Nasu's opinion on transience being beautiful there's enough wrong with it already that you could ignore it.

Edited by VeryMelon on Feb 26th 2019 at 7:48:15 AM

Also, Goetia wanted to rule and nurture humanity so it would reach its apex according to his vision.

If you have problems with how that would be bad, the 3rd Lostbelt shows a pretty similar world to what he envisioned, and it is pretty sucky.

His does not have people dying in his version of a humanity he'll nurture so it has some things up on Qins at least.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Okay, let's put it in simple terms: how would you like to live under the watchful eye of a metaphysical Big Brother that controls every aspect of your existence and forbids any action or desire that goes against it?

If anything, people being able to die in Qin's Utopia is a blessing: if people there are akin to farm animals, then in Goetia's world people are naught but potted plants.

No they are less than farm animals. It actually makes Koyanskaya mad how non human they are in atititude.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Mono no aware

There is definitely a cultural divide between us and the Japanese who wax on about transience

Well it is noticeable that the anime tab for Assimilation Plot is pretty massive.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Read an article once on Kuja, the villain from FFIX, which stated that his motivation is far more sympathetic to a Western audience who generally have the idea of an afterlife pretty well-rooted in culture, differently from Japan which is quite a bit more secular and the concept of Cessation of Existence is more normalized, so Kuja's motivation is basically a teenager whining about how unfair the world is.

Or so I half-remember, anyway, read it a long time ago, but it might have something to do with how Nasu approaches the subject.

Mind, individual immortality isn't as bashed: Huang Di is Living Forever Is Awesome incarnate, after all.

I see Nasu approaching it from the perspective how since life is transient, the best humans can do is how to cope with it, and we create meaning through it

Of course this gets weak in the face of literal fantasy and magic

Not a really big brain take

Honestly, would you even call Goetia's end goal even involve humans? I honestly see it ultimately being like Tiamat but insteat of "new humans" it is more like humanity before humanity would exist.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

Think about it like this, Zouken's plan was to use the Third, which is making humans like self sustaining terminals like living ghosts, it's an idea that doesn't take into account the future of such an idea and what the mentality of people will change into being like that. Ideals such as how we think about progeny, and life in general with such a change but people think his ideal is good on paper.

And while the Japanese idea of things is that life is transient and fleeting, life itself is still ironically important despite how conveyor belt like some stories make it out to seem such as Nasu's take on reincarnation being that many lives share the same origin (which also can make their lives hell or change them) but whenever someone dies they are recycled and their data is flushed to use for the new life unless you are super ultra special and gain an afterlife through means like Artoria with Avalon if you're not pulled into service for your specialness as a Heroic Spirit, so it is actually unfair without dispute a lot of the time. The way life is still important in Japanese history was the idea of sacrifice being a very big thing, like using people (whether willingly or forcefully) to protect the land or the people with their bodies, blood, souls, you get the picture. It's very much a majority matters over the individual perspective, but life matters. It's why people like Fujino (with a caveat), Sakura, and Kohaku suffer so much, they were the cog in the procedure used for a purpose, and why Nasu uses that type of story often because sacrifice of the one to preserve the many is pretty much an ideal represented quite clearly. We humans sacrifice the Earth that spawned us and dump it out as refuse to one day tour the Solar System, Sakura is sacrificed as an individual because their society is all about propagation of the line at all cost, so when the situation came up the spare was ejected. Sacrifice isn't just seen as necessary at times, but preffered.

Edited by AOG-2 on Feb 26th 2019 at 3:47:00 AM

honestly I'm rather annoyed that no Servant brings up the fact that the afterlife doesn't exist after the Ao G.

Secret Signature

full version of the nef and ozy illustration◊

Song of the Sirens

That was pretty good AOG

... Is this an Extella thing? Because it sounds like an Extella thing (specifically, the Velber stuff), and it could explain why it's not reflected in the Type-Moon wiki yet; how much of that material has been solidly translated?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

It's Extella/GO stuff. And it's not on the Type Moon wiki because the people who know this kind of stuff hate the Type Moon wiki for being full of crap.

Gods have three basic origins. Aliens, anthropomorphized natural forces and responses to humans desires. Amaterasu is an alien, as are the original Olympians. The Sumerian gods are natural forces. Gods that are responses to mankind are those like Euryale and Stheno but I'm not sure that's as simple as 'humans believe in feminine beauty, beautiful girls poof into existence.'

Dream of every weeb.

Type of feminine beauty the Nippon believe in this case.

Cause if the Gorgons sisters were more accurate to Greek tastes then they’d be full-figured gals like Medusa.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 26th 2019 at 8:39:26 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

14-year old me would've had a field day trying to get his shitty waifu into existence.

Been reading Lord el-melloi II case files, and wow, now I see why Rin has such contempt for Luvia. An "elegant hyeana" is really an apt description.

Also, I love this one guy who just flat out says that Mages are fools and their obsession with the root a worthless waste of time that wrought misery with nothing to show for it.

Isn't Luvia just Tohsaka with boobs, ojou laugh and drill hair?