Elementalist
And, once again, it appears I'm going to be the primary responder to your post. I should probably get “responds to SmokingBun's posts” as my title or something.
So, let's start from ... somewhere in the middle, actually, because if I start from the beginning I'm going to have to skip to the middle anyway and then go back to do the beginning justice. I will have to assume, based on what you wrote, that the story focuses on James's journey, coming-of-age style, and that the world has some unrealistic elements in it but when it comes to emotions it is supposed to be realistic.
The pills seem legit as a device, but there is something I have to point out. Namely, the fact that the whole “locked for nine months” thing doesn't ... feel to me, let's say, like it is the best choice for what is happening. This is because either James is taking a new pill once the current one's effect runs out (in which case there'd be no ovulation, meaning no egg, meaning no conception) or before the effect runs out in which case the whole lock thing feels like something of a cop-out (because it takes the choice to stay pregnant from James, when the story is supposed to be James's coming of age story, and when the “friendly secret agent” could be used as a plot device to solve this one once James actually comes to the conclusion that the pregnancy is to be kept as he could just happen to find something that would lock James's body in that state for longer, maybe even permanently or semi-permanently).
Likewise, James stealing the pills doesn't feel in tune with the kid's character, as far as you've shown him one. I suppose I would be more ready to accept a situation in which James sees the pills, is tempted to take them but conflicted, and the secret agent guy basically sees this and decides to give James the pills without being overt about it, resulting in him taking James for a mental spin that ends with James leaving with the pills and having little idea how that happened.
The thing with James's parents feels weird. If they are “supportive” but never really do anything about it when the kid could use a piece of parental advice ... yes, it does feel quite irresponsible to me. Unless your world is markedly different, or the story takes place years back when the fact that trans people exist wasn't something a lot of people were aware of (and I doubt you'd have a crossdressing contest then). So here's an idea: if you go with the take on it that the agent gives the pills to James stealthily, you could later reveal that part of why he did it is because James's parents confided in him that they think James is really a girl mentally. I feel that if there is any reason for them being unable to help James with it, if they are supposed to be good parents then this has to come from James actually hiding what is happening and them not having anything concrete to go with; even so, I would expect (again, based on the assumption that they are good parents) that they, especially James's mother because girl stuff, would try.
Likewise, James being in denial would have to actually be caused by some external factor, like being attacked for being girl-like in the past or something. It's not possible to be in denial from simply not knowing that this is a thing, that's just being unaware and as soon as James learns that this is a thing you'd have no more “denial” really.
Now, is Jack worth helping ... well, that's a good question. Generally, when you help a friend you don't do it based on the objective truth of them being worth helping or not, you do it because they're your friend and you think you should help, that is all that matters to you. It is the same here, the story focuses on James's journey and if the kid makes the decision to help Jack because they're friends then that's what happens and that's it. And the line between not knowing how to behave due to lack of experience and being a sexual predator is a fairly simple one, someone who is the former will be unsure of where the boundaries lie and thus sometimes go through them without noticing, especially in the heat of the moment, but you can rein them in with relatively little effort and they do learn where the boundaries are, some faster and some slower; as such, show Jack getting better at not going too far, show him actually stop when James tell him to stop because that's too much, and you should be fine.
James wanting to be a singer doesn't feel like it's going to be any kind of problem. If played well, it can work to make the kid more life-like, and with James having more stuff to throw at Jack during the break-up it will be easier for you to keep it realistically broken.
The ending feels like a little bit of a let-down, to be honest. When you have pills that can reconfigure your body perfectly for some time, it stands to reason that they do have the technology to induce the same thing permanently, so James's body changing back later and the kid going through standard-issue transition feels ... yeah, like a let-down. “Oh hey, you got a kid now so now you're going to never get more and have to slowly go through changes that are inferior compared that what you already had” (because yes, unless you make the transition somewhat fantastical too, trans people as of now cannot have kids afterwards, not the way you want Jane to), talk about broken paradise ...
Referencing the above bit about the pills and about the parents, it feels weird to me that the parents would only try to step in once James got pregnant, and likewise it feels really weird to me that James would have to have the whole “you're really a girl on the inside, honey” thing explained by basically an outside person. To add to that one, there doesn't seem to be much of a reason for James to notice being pregnant without having much context for it (unless James simply has that bad pregnancy symptoms, it would require the kid to miss a period, and that means staying on the pills non-stop without letting the body change at all, because I don't see James thinking of getting a pregnancy test done otherwise ... heck, without any advice from the parents I don't see that decision happening at all really). Considering the requirements for that (i.e. the pregnancy) to happen, in context of how the pills work, I feel that for a coming-of-age story it would be more appropriate to make it something like this:
James starts taking the pills occasionally, to help Jack. As it progresses, however, James discovers that for some reason it feels better to be Jane than to be James, so she starts timing the pill-taking so that the body never changes back. James's parents notice that something is different, but Jane is trying very hard to hide that from them because the something that caused her to go into denial is still there and she's feeling pressure from it, something like shame for wanting to be Jane. Even so, the parents do succeed at giving Jane some advice, despite her pretending very hard to be James. The pregnancy is more or less a mutual mistake, with both Jane and Jack being naive enough to let it happen, but because of the advice she got Jane does take notice that her period is missing and uses a pregnancy test, confirming that it happens. She blows up on Jack, despite being partly at fault too, and they break up, after which Jane returns home and just doesn't care enough to try to hide which is how her parents find out that yes this is happening. Jane ends up confessing what exactly is happening, and is afraid about how far it got, but when her parents talk with her about trying to undo this in some way she realises that she can't, she just can't get rid of the pregnancy. Afterwards, she also realises that the pills, though many, are limited, so she and maybe her parents too go to the friendly neighbourhood secret agent and he does help them again by providing something that will keep Jane's body as it is permanently; if that feels cheap you can make him ask for some kind of price or insert some sort of justification about it with Jane's parents helping him out greatly in the past or something and him returning the favour now, and you could also make it so that such a permanent change is just possible (with the pills existing, they'd have tech for that too) and they only go to the guy because no doctor would give such a change to who appears to be a pregnant girl. The reveal to Jack would happen the same, then, but Jane doesn't revert back afterwards because Jack would already have time to realise that he loves Jane, or James, or whoever they are, and you leave the situation with them somewhat awkward but trying, to skip to the epilogue then.
PS. Jack and James are technically the same name. Not much of an issue for your writing, but here it means I had to keep thinking about it because all the names were so close.
Edit: Skip to epilogue, not prologue. Silly me ...
Edited by Kazeto on Dec 11th 2018 at 6:37:49 PM
@Kazeto
Ha! Hey man, they should start paying you for this, "Can you go and tell Smoking Bun whatever he wants so that he goes away?"
Before we begin, I have been discussing this story in other places and wanted to establish a couple of changes:
a). The pregnancy angle is no more, it doesn't work and even as an accident it comes off as cheap drama. I found that it doesn't actually contribute anything. That said, to make it work I could extend the transformation period to a week but nevermind. Some Trans folks told me it actually robs the character of her agency.
b). James/Jane suspected they were Trans but always in denial, the crossdressing is the first step to coming to terms with the truth and the pills just enhance that prior revlation. It's a hammer that strikes down and confirms James has always been a girl. Again I was told this would make it flow more naturally than the pills being what convinces James/Jane
c). Jack attempting suicide is a backstory element. James is in love with Jack and finding him with his wrists slashed was a nightmarish moment for her that makes James devote herself to "saving" Jack anyway she can. Naturally her method is flawed and the idea is that Jack needs actual medical help besides love and support. Conversely James needs to accept herself for who she is and not be dependant on the pills, those will run out eventually and she needs to make that transition to being a girl.
Ok, lets go!
The pregnancy angle is gone so the locked in stuff isn't in play anymore. Again I have been told the whole "trapped while pregnant" robs the charcter of agency and makes it something that was forced upon her rather than an active choice.
James is a good kid and has good relations with the neighbour/secret agent man! I'd imagine she often goes to him to talk about things that she doesn't feel comfortable sharing with her parents or to just vent but I don't know if it would be moral for the agent to give her the pills. She would steal them AFTER the crossdressing plan is exposed and Jack basically locks himself away. Fearing another suicide attempt, James finds an extreme option and takes it. The agent & even the parents let James keep the pills because they feel it will help solve James' own personal issue of being Trans and help come to terms with it. They can't force that revelation on her.
Ok so James gets caught by her folks almost immidiately. She takes the pills, transforms, plays around a bit, gets exhausted and falls asleep. Next morning her parents find a girl in their "son's" bed who suspiciously looks like him. They have a talk, make her take the jar back, speak to the agent dude and the adults have a conversation about this behaviour. The adults conclude that boys don't typically like to crossdress and fantasize about being a girl so much unless something else was going on, so they let her experiment.
They also talk about how James got caught crossdressing and pretending to be Jack's GF and the humiliation that followed. James tells her parents that he doesn't feel comfortable/safe going to school as her male self. She'd rather use the pills to keep an eye on Jack while essentially being the new "transfer student". James makes a plea to miss a year of school so that she can help her friend. The parents agree on the caveat that she tells them everything that goes on (within reason naturally). This is where James' parents discover Jack's severe condition too (they knew that he once attempted suicide but felt they couldn't interfere in another family's matters). They essentially end up having a talk with James/Jane who in turn pushes Jack towards getting treatment, real help rather than the childish solution they tried. James meanwhile dumps the pills and begin to transition proper.
The above was my concept but I think yours is better, it keeps the "we wanted you to come to the conclusion yourself". The "pregnancy" was supposed to be a disaster that makes them step in and be like, "okay enough". The denial part comes from the fact she's thought about she might be Trans but basically the news/internet stories and the like have terrified her into keeping it a secret, she doesn't even know if her parents would be cool with it. Though admittedly, if they let her crossdress and her mom does her makeup then they can't be all that against it. Still, she isn't open with it until she comes out proper and her parents are like, "OMG! Finally, you get it!" Additionally, there is a minor character of James' dad's boss who is a Transman himself and basically gives her a pep talk.
I think I've figured out Jack's plot pretty well. Depressed kid whose blessed with the most devoted friend and eventual girlfriend ever. James has always loved him and stayed close even though she knew it couldn't be physical. The idea that one day they could be physical is just another bit of motivation to Transition.
I know the ending feels like a bitter-sweet letdown but I have been told that permamenet sex change pills should either be the eventual goal, like a hero going on a journey to discover such a thing or the character should have a real-world transition since actual Trans folks can relate to that. I wanted a real-world transition because it makes Jack's character look better since he stays with Jane throughout the process rather than leaving and showing backup once she's "ready". I have been told that it would make Jack look like an ass otherwise since he would be saying, "ok bye! see ya after you have boobs and lady bits! Then I will love you!" Like he only cares about the physical aspects. He needs to prove himself.
I like the idea you posted concerning how the pregnancy would play out and having the pills change you for a week makes it a bit more palatable. That said, I was being told that being "locked in" was bad since again robs Jane of agency and takes choice away from her. I suppose by your method, it could work she would be taking the pills to remain a girl/pregnant. What I don't understand is that why is the protagonist not allowed to be "In Peril", if the hero gets locked in a dungeon by the bad guy, that takes away agency too right?
Finally, just in case you wanted to know, here's another discussion I had on this plot "https://nanowrimo.org/forums/plot-doctoring/threads/460842
"
Do you wanna be a beta reader for this story? I feel like I could use the help!
One or two twists in a story is fine, Shyamlan-esque even. But please don't turn the poor thing into a Twizzler!
Elementalist
I don't know how helpful I would be as a beta reader as that is on a somewhat different level from this which is basically poking away at someone's idea until something gives, but if you think I could do a good job I'll be glad to do it. I do not know if this work of yours is going to be a commercial release or not so if you need me to sign anything for it just send it via PM, just be aware that I don't sign stupid American NDAs (meaning, I don't sign NDAs that tell me I can't tell anyone I'm under an NDA, because that's just annoying and helps accomplish nothing).
I'll need to create an account on the =NaNoWriMo site, as I never had the time to actually participate in it so I never really made one before. This is why this reply is still here, rather than over there ... although I suppose keeping the forum alive-ish is a goal in itself too.
As for the reason why the “peril” in this case is taken as something negative, at least in your rendition, think of it in terms of a hero's journey as seen in fantasy adventure stories and in at least some “RPG” video games and such. This “peril” is something that almost always happens, but when it does it's for a reason and there are some boundaries to it: it's happening because the hero is lacking something (strength, savvy, wisdom, decisiveness, a reliable ally, a way to keep those they care about safe from the bad guy, you name it) and you just know that if it wasn't for that thing things would be different, the consequences of this are appropriate to the situation and to the thing that is lacking (not being able to keep their loved ones save may be a reason for the hero to work for the bad guy until they can figure out the solution, but it would be silly to expect anything above getting captured and having to fight their way out if they just fell into a trap and that was it), and the whole thing is something that either leads to the hero improving themselves or actually progresses the plot. One fine example of this is the bit with Shelob in The Lord of the Rings: it happens because the heroes fail to recognise Gollum's attempt for what it is (and you know they could have avoided it otherwise), the consequences of that are realistic for what it is, and because of the attempt they find a way to progress plus they learn to trust Gollom less; checks on all points, it's a good one.
In your take on it in the story, changing the way the pills work because of the pregnancy (i.e. the whole being locked thing) means that the peril ends up being more “punishing” than it should be (worst case scenario, abortion is a thing) and it doesn't really leave a chance for the hero (Jane in this case) to learn anything; a more fitting peril for making this kind of mistake would be being forced to make a hard decision about the pregnancy, because then the process of actually making that choice, the feelings resulting from it, that would be a chance for Jane to learn from it, and even then with the pills that would have to be an extension of Jane's over-reliance on them as part of what caused it. You could say that, in video game terms, your take on it could be taken as a situation where you win against a boss and the game treats it as a loss because it's all scripted and for the next 20% of game progress it's going to all be a cut-scene or something. Some topics are really hard to balance, though I do know that this can be done; I remember one movie (I'm not sure if it's an adaptation of a book or just a movie) that had two low-teenagers sleeping with each other (not shown, because of obvious reasons, but pretty much stated to be happening) and one of their's mother was all “you'll have to stop once she gets her first period” ... and then stuff happens because the first ovulation comes before the first menstruation, and dealing with the pregnancy, in what ways and how and where it all goes from there, was the peril and I think they handled it pretty well.
So yeah, getting locked in because that's one way for Jane to keep the child and she chooses to go that way after emotional turmoil is one thing, being forced into a locked-in state just like that is not the best option.
As for the feedback about this coming specifically from trans people, I'm ... not sure how to comment on that. I mean, the story clearly has fantasy elements, so from that angle I don't see any issues about Jane getting pregnant in itself, and I'm not sure what difference people being trans makes there when it comes to seeing the lock-in as not the best way to do it. Though, yes, stuff like pregnancy or, if anyone ever wants to go there, rape, do have to be handled carefully because otherwise they can become cheap drama generators.
Now, onto the rest of it because that did take some text.
I'm not sure how I should take the bit after “Ok, lets go!” since that clearly is a take on the story thought up by you and made after the whole pregnancy thing got removed and yet you mention thinking that my snippet is better. I can only assume that this means you thought it up after posting here but before I replied, so if this assumption is wrong just say so and I will try again, but for now I think the best I can do is leave this part without feedback.
Real-world transition ... well, I can't say it is not an element that you can use, but once again I do have to note that with your story's world having temporary pills I would be somewhat surprised if they didn't actually have a way to make anyone go through a permanent change with decent to maybe even very good results. The key there is that one, I have no doubt that such a thing would be gated so you could use that as a way to have Jane spend time in a male body (say, if the pills run out and she still needs, say, a few months of counselling and medical tests to be allowed to undergo the fantasy-tech permanent sex change) without having it be a let-down of this kind (I mean, I'm not sure but I think a trans person would prefer a fantasy story dealing with this particular theme to be more sweet than bitter in regards to Jane getting a body that's “the way it should be”; certainly I would prefer that kind of thing, even and maybe especially if that has a price of Jane going through more emotional turmoil to get there), and two, having Jane be completely locked for a time but with clear goal may actually be a better indicator of Jack's ability to love Jane even as James because until she gets over the gates there's no signs of femininity appearing over time, it's basically Jane as a trans woman who for the time being can't get treatment finding love as who she is regardless of her body being stuck for now. Considering how lonely it can be when not everyone understands trans people as something that exists and how finding love before they transition completely may to some look like an unobtainable goal, I think the idea has merit even from their perspective (well ... I'm hoping it does). Though I will note that I may be quite biased there, because as opposed to trans people generally speaking who it seems had to sacrifice their ability to get biological children to find happiness, that option has never been an option for me so ... that.
As for Jack's depression, I think the important part is to think on how to show in the story that Jack is going through his own journey and finding out all the stuff about him and about Jane. I mean, you mentioned Jack proving himself in some way, and from the perspective of someone who knows that depression can be a vicious b...witch, yes, witch, I can tell you that doing that one right may end up being quite challenging. I mean, it may not necessarily be hard, but it's ... complicated, yes, that's a good word for it.
I think that's it for now.
Edited by Kazeto on Dec 14th 2018 at 7:40:17 PM
So here's the setup: Jack and James (placeholders y'all) are best buddies and going through 10th grade together (i.e. 16 ish years old). James has a fairly average reputation in school, he's part of a music & dance club and loves to dress up in costume (think punk rock/Queen style) for performances. Jack on the other is a depressed sad sack with an aloof mom at home and slipping grades, he barely has any friends and never even held hands with a girl.
James tries his best to cheer his buddy up but nothing works, he tries to convince some of the girls to give him a chance but they either find him creepy or too cowardly/boring. James decides to go to his neighbor, a retired government operative of some sort and confides in him as often usually does. Now, the neighbor has a basement full of gadgets and trinkets he stole from his "Organization". James finds a bottle of pills that let you switch genders for 24 hours and steals it.
James becomes Jane and essentially tries to be Jack's dream girl, she presents herself as a punk rock, party loving, skateboards around the school type. Jane tries to be a MANIC PIXIE DREAM GIRL to fix her friend. So the plot would be James/Jane trying her best to understand what's wrong with her friend and trying her best to fix him. She succeeds in as much as Jack clings to her like glue and becomes desperate to be with her. Jack ends up doing stupid things to try and impress Jane and Jane wonders where she went wrong while also dealing with the fact that she loves being a girl and wants to stay that way. But again, staying a girl means Jack never leaves her alone while turning back into a boy will send Jack spiraling back down again.
So here's the two most important facts about the characters that I'm sure you've figured out. Jack is supposed to have clinical depression (and borderline suicidal, wondering if that would be too much). James is Transgender but in deep denial, she shuts down her dysphoria by focusing on literally everything else (a workaholic) including trying to make everyone around her happy, like her friend. I wanted it so that James doesn't know what being Transgender is, like she's unaware it's even a thing. Like she may read about it online but could never imagine herself in that situation.
So here are my concerns with the plot:
1. Is Jack worth helping? What I mean is, how do I show that Jack isn't some creep but someone whose deeply hurting and needs medical help? What's the line between "he's never had a girlfriend so he doesn't know how to behave" and Sexual harassment?
2. I wanted to portray James/Jane as being only partially successful, like Jack does improve but only when she's close by, a short term solution. Is it a good idea to portray depression as being something that demands medical intervention, that you need to take anti-depressants to get better?
3. James' parents know about what she's doing and somewhat supportive. They had inklings of doubt their child may be this way and want to give her an opportunity to reach the conclusion on her own since naturally they can't possible know for sure unless she tells them and then a doctor would validate it. Is that too irresponsible of them? His parents want to wait since they believe the truth would be a heavy burden for James and it's better he come to terms with it on his own rather than plant a potentially incorrect idea.
4. One of the ways the parents know is that James loves to crossdress, in fact he performed as a girl at a dance competition. He's even made his mom help him put on makeup and go out as a girl a couple of times. Is this too out there? Like, "no teen would ever thing off this?" Also, yeah, lots of straight-cis dudes cross-dress and hence why his parents are like, "well maybe it's just a phase!"
5. With the cross-dressing element, should I excise the sex change pills? I feel like I would miss out on some funny moments and the self-realization that James has been a girl all along won't be as strong. I mean the fact that James is at home with a girl's body and not even a bit freaked out is telling. Also, I feel like Jack would immediately figure out when they made out or something like that.
6. I mentioned Jack does some stupid things, well the stupidest thing he does is get Jane pregnant which locks her into being a girl (for the 9 months). This essentially causes a break up between the two, Jane tells him off and James is left as an emotional wreck and almost commits suicide. Now it's at this point that the parents step in and try to fix things. They explain to Jane that Jack needs real help and they are both equally at fault for letting things escalate so far (admitting their own fault at being too hands off). The also explain to James the real reason behind why he loves being Jane so much. Jack starts getting treatment for his depression and Jane explains the truth, showing off the pills and Jack even tries one. Jack thanks Jane for such an extreme effort to save him and Jane frees him from his responsibilities, saying he should focus on himself and get better, she'll raise the kids. I want to know how rock solid does this sound? Or is it a mess? Would Jack realistically run away screaming when he finds out the Jane and James are the same person?
7. It doesn't end on the downer above. Jack comes back, recovering from his downward spiral and even smiling occasionally. Jack witnesses his kids being born, watches Jane revert to James and declares he loves James/Jane in whatever form. They become a family and James realizes he's been Jane all along and decides to go through with a proper transition. The final scene would take place years later with Jane, now fully transitioned and receiving an honorary degree, her husband and kids just waiting off stage. Does all this sound good or hokey/cheesy?
8. Finally, I wanted a background element of James wanting to be a singer. As Jane she gets popular via You Tube and even does it while pregnant. I'd imagine it could be excised but basically James abandons some opportunities to help his friend as Jane and brings it up during their heated break-up argument. Keep or discard?
Edited by SmokingBun on Dec 7th 2018 at 9:38:39 AM
One or two twists in a story is fine, Shyamlan-esque even. But please don't turn the poor thing into a Twizzler!