Disco Elysium

I find it rather disgusting and upsetting that so many players opt for the Enlightened Centrist choices in this game. The game is directly calling you, the player, out as a coward and turning a blind eye toward human suffering in a way that is so real I find it hard to put to words, and players still choose it because it lines up with their personal views.

The other options are all equally extreme. I don't think the game expects you to take seriously the idea of becoming an ultraliberal, money-grubbing shyster; a racist Fascist; or a True Believer Communist who tries to restart the revolution and execute millions of people either.

You might have noticed a backstory involving a Communist revolution and subsequent war with blood literally running through the streets. I did.

Disco Elysium is not meant to advocate any of these points of view. It is a lens through which we can examine our own beliefs. Uncritically advocating for any of those beliefs is missing the message.

I mean, if you actually think I deserve to be executed in real life for preferring center-left solutions, then that is a very real problem that goes well beyond a video game. We don't put up with that on TV Tropes.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 14th 2021 at 1:31:11 PM

Wow. That is not at all what I was trying to say. It disturbs me that you would take my post as endorsing real-world violence.

What my point is that players are too willing to dismiss their personal ideology being challenged so directly. A great deal of those who play role-playing games like Disco fall to two categories: Those who play their character as an idealized version of the self, and those who play to explore options they would never choose in reality. I find that many of the former play the game as a centrist, something that the game is unsparing in its criticism for, yet often choose to take that criticism as a flaw of the writing. It speaks to a general unwillingness to properly engage with the ideas of a work that is very deliberately influenced and informed by leftist viewpoints, even though it is also willing to criticize everything about that viewpoint.

I'm not sure who you're speaking for, but I find the criticisms of moralism in the game to be largely valid, just not compelling enough to cause me to change my mind. Taking the "least bad option" is after all a very moralist thing to do.

I don't think Disco elysium makes that great a point against enlightened centrism because in the same breath it does so, the only alternatives they offer are voluntarily exagerrated caricatures of other position that also get their fair share of criticism.

You say players chose it because it lines up with their personal views, but as far as I could see, despite agreeing with the criticism made at moralism, the game didn't give me the impression any other option was better-looking, so of course I'd stick the the choices I find the least bad. I don't see the logic in picking an even worse choice because someone rightfully pointed out the one I'm inclined towards is deeply flawed.

The politics of Disco Elysium might make interesting points and observations, but when it comes to advocating for an actual position, the only thing the game inspires me to feel is that all options sucks, even centrism, not "centrism sucks harder than the rest", and I think that arguing the game is trying to tear apart enlightened centrism specifically feels like a bit of cherrypicking to me.

I also don't think the game calls you out so directly in the first place either. Yes, the game makes fun of your decision to play enlightened centrist, but again, so does it for every other political opinion, and it never really punishes you with actual consequences in the game for playing moralist. Fascist gets hit far harder on that spectrum in that it actually strains your relationship with Kim to some extent and that's a consequence that's actually tangible for me.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 14th 2021 at 8:53:39 PM

Having played all four alignments and vison quests, I'm inclined to say the game actually has a certain amount of sympathy for why people are moralist but reserves its most realistic criticism for why it's unsustainable in its current form. It's not so much that the other options presented are actually better or that there's a clear alternative, but rather that as the status quo it's more pressing, and people can easily become complacent in accepting it as the best we can do. Even if one prefers moderation, as many do, for all the other three corners' glaring failings, moralism as it currently is isn't living up to its own ideals.

It's the idea that the system itself, once set in motion, will uplift all humanity. But it can't, really. Only humanity itself, or humans as individuals, rather, can do that. Paraphrasing a quote I can't seem to source at the moment: "An administration, like any machine, cannot create; it can only carry on." It needs that oversight, responsibility and accountability, to actually help people rather than just maintain stability. Even centrism is better served by tension in all directions, the push and pull of differing opinions, than the ominous, unflinching monolith the game describes.

That's the criticism that comes through to me, at least. Most diehard Marxists and anarchists and the like these days do understand why other people aren't the same way, and how trying to force it at the expense of millions of lives might be a bad thing. Communism, fascism, and ultraliberalism are absurd parodies in the game — fascism in particular specifically hurts you as a person, in real mechanical terms. But the criticism of moralism does seem more biting, if only because it's less satirical, more current and more sincere. It takes itself seriously, in a way it doesn't with the other vision quests. The game's point, I think, is not so much that all four positions have failed and everything sucks and always will, but that because everything still kind of sucks for a lot of people despite the failures and even the present compromise that replaced them, we have to keep trying. As good as the current centre may seem to be for a lot of people, it still leaves a lot of others out in the cold.

The game I think wants to recognize that, perhaps as part of the reason why people turn to other extremes in the first place. They can seem welcoming when the comforts of moralism seem far away and cold. Moralism isn't a tangible reality in places such as Martinaise.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 15th 2021 at 11:56:13 AM

Yeah, that's a fair point and I find myself agreeing with a lot of this. Especially the "we have to keep trying" part. the part about how people can end up desiring extreme sorely because they want something, anything to get them out of the corner moralism is backing them into is another big mood.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 14th 2021 at 9:26:52 PM

Thanks. And yeah. The right game for the right time, right?

Edited by Unsung on Aug 14th 2021 at 1:54:37 PM

These are excellent arguments and say what am thinking in greater detail.

I mean, I didn't go with communism because I agree with it. I went with it cuz it's funny.

Grinding people into sausages is not something I'd actually be on board with.

Yeah, It's all pretty over the top. On the opposite extreme, all things considered I think ultraliberalism gets off pretty lightly, but it's still hilarious to play. Like, I love Idiot Doom Spiral.

Still, the devs having lived under actual communism and/or grown up under the shadow of its collapse, I do think there's some wish to acknowledge what the movement can turn into when you're asking people to become such an idealized version of humanity... or die. The jokes are all the funnier because they've got some teeth.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 15th 2021 at 11:49:32 AM

Nah, myself being far leftist living in former Eastern Block country I personally think that criticism of specific ideologies in this game is done from purely leftist point of view. Playing as comunist I saw most jokes as rather tongue-in-cheek, self-deprecation humor full of small inside jokes and callouts of cringe and/or dangerous behavior in our political community.

Leftists love criticize other leftists, so there's that.

Criticism of moralism on the other hand... centrists are not genuinely trying to find the right solution, they are simply using the Golden Mean Fallacy to justify keeping everything the same as it is, no matter how unhealthy the situation currently is. That is, in effect, Disco Elysium's view on centrism.

And this is very left-leaning interpretation of centrism.

Edited by Misiael on Aug 14th 2021 at 11:10:01 AM

I actually agree. The game does seem to clearly sympathize more with communism, fragile, hopeful concept that it is, flawed, doomed, bloody Revolution and all. But I do think the game also pays some attention to understanding why so many people (mostly from outside of Revachol) are tugged toward moralism as a default state, a starting point they never quite leave. Not so much sympathetic to moralism itself, but why people take refuge in it and want to believe it works. To feel safe.

But who ends up paying for that feeling of safety, it asks? The better ending for the moralist vision quest, the one that's not a game over, is getting that voice on the radio to realize you're really in trouble over in Martinaise, despite what she believes about the stability Moralintern offers... and then to also realize that her superiors are going to stand by and do nothing. That moment seems much more cutting and dramatic than all the ridiculous things you say as any of the other three.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 14th 2021 at 6:24:44 AM

"sympathize more with communism"...

I mean, I hear Joyce and others talk about a body count in the tens of millions from the revolution alone and I'm immediately catapulted out of any sympathy I might have had. Communism is portrayed wistfully as a failed ideology, but that's not the same thing as it being portrayed sympathetically. If you go hardcore on the Communist dialog options, the reaction of most people seems to be, "That's cute, you do that." If anything the attitude is patronizing, although with the ever-present threat of the guns of the Coalition to shut down any serious uprising.

The Communists have genuine grievances, of course. I'm not denying that. But the global prosperity that everyone in Revachol is so abjectly denied was brought about by the ultraliberals, not the revolutionaries. All they did was bring everyone down to the same level of squalor.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 14th 2021 at 7:05:08 AM

Every ideology is presented with similar historical baggage. Dolores Dei, saint/historical figure and face of moralist values was a bloodthirsty warlord, colonialist and war criminal. She waged several wars against the Mesque State for trying to move away from the Innocentic church in response to their growing secularism, violently suppressed dissent with a personal force called the Army of Humanity, and spearheaded mandatory education and colonisation programmes to spread her message.

If you reject communism purely on basis of its former transgressions, I'm afraid you have to do the same thing with moralism as well.

But... that isn't true. Game shows us Martinaise - district full of desperate, ill, demoralised and poor people, old buildings and abused workrers and unhappy people. It;s a hellhole Revachol is treated like former Eastern Block countries in our world are treated by Western countries - underdeveloped source of cheap labor full of desperated people. Only good things in Revachol are RCM and strong worker union working in favor of citizens - and those two things are legacy of revolution and socialist ideas.

Edited by Misiael on Aug 14th 2021 at 1:26:56 PM

I just said that Revachol is denied the fruits of that prosperity. And yeah, moralism is also portrayed in a bad light. This is my point. I'm not arguing for moralism; I'm saying that the game does not overtly favor any particular ideology.

But... it is. Game calls you out (harshly and repeatedly) if you are fence-sitter bothsider, so why do you think devs could promote this kind of view?

Acknowledging that your ideology have problematic legacy isn't the same as disdain it.

Eh. I didn't mean to say communism was written to *be* sympathetic. Certainly not at all times. I was more saying that the game was written as if the writers/narration were already sympathetic toward communism. Slight difference, but significant, I think. Your opinions as the reader are your own, but that intent comes across — though as the player, you can disagree, and the game does respect your character. But it's in that wistfulness you mention.

I don't think the game is going out of its way to proselytize for communism or whitewash old communist regimes. That's not the kind of sympathy I mean. Like I said earlier, I think most anarchists and communists understand that the reaction of the various NPCs in the game is the one they'll get in many places. But I think that experience of being an erstwhile true believer is in there. Wishing things could be different, that there was some way to try again and get it right, but knowing full well the naivete of the young, the bitterness of old fanatics, the disingenuous politicking and backbiting. I think there's a definite awareness when it comes to the Revolution's crimes, but also the hope that maybe the goals of communism are still achievable without repeating that part of history.

Even Joyce herself seems a little wistful when she thinks about a free Revachol. A little. While being honest with herself in that she really never would have done any different than her parents.

It's not to say that the game definitively favours communism as the ideology the audience should internalize themselves. Just that that perspective does colour the game, both intentionally and more incidentally in places.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 14th 2021 at 6:17:04 AM

I think Extended Edition is really so clearly focused on centrist/moralist side-quest because devs knew most players would adopt this ideology in their initial run (and I said "players" because I know exactly which one was adopted by most Gamers™, let me say you that), so this quest will be played more often than others.

I still think devs from ZA/UM are far leftist. Chapo folks were in first edition after all. I'd say they are democratic socialists or anarcho-syndicalists like myself. Anarchists really like dunking on commies.

Edited by Misiael on Aug 15th 2021 at 10:19:49 AM

Sure, I'd agree with that. They've basically said as much themselves in tweets and devblogs, and a collab with Chapo Trap House does seem like a statement of intent. The Coalition gets called out on their ostensibly democratic socialist governments, and the latter term is broad, but it does make me tend to think the devs skew that little bit further left.

I do think that if the game leans towards any ideology, that ideology is communism, or is roughly adjacent to it.

In particular, the references to “The Return” have a certain…stirring feel to them, so to speak? Not necessarily blaring the Soviet anthem or anything, but very much a statement of intent - a great change is coming, and it will force a mighty reckoning.

The game might not explicitly side with any one ideology, even after taking the critiques into account, but it would be a mistake to think that it treats them all with equal disdain (fascists of course get the worst of it, followed by the ultraliberals).

Furthermore, this is what the game’s Steam page has to say about communism:

Now, the game does not shy away from the fact that the communists have a lot of blood on their hands, and at least a good portion of it was probably unnecessary, but I think stuff like this is also making a point that said death toll is often used as a cudgel against the basic ideas behind it, regardless of their validity.

Disco Elysium's take on ideologies:

• Communism: It'd be awesome if it worked out, but it didn't so there.

• Fascism: Angry and pathetic losers looking for something to blame for their inability to get laid.

• Moralism: It's so "sensible" and only has a moderate amount of blood on its hands.

• Ultraliberalism: Money money money!

The game does kind of lean towards Communism though. Tellingly, the end of the game reveals that the RCM is actually planning to take part in another Communist revolution against the Moralintern.

Edited by M84 on Aug 16th 2021 at 3:11:12 AM

"Wouldn't it be great if Communism worked" might as well be the mantra of that ideology. It says about all that needs to be said. The complete expression is: "Wouldn't it be great if Communism worked, too bad about all the people it killed."

You could say that about just every ideology. As Derrida said in his Specters of Marx

I'd actually invite you to read some comptemporary leftist authors, such as Mark Fisher or David Graeber. Such concepts as hauntology or lost futures clearly inspired Disco Elysium.

So questions since Dev Foresight page doesn't mention it:

What happens if you don't talk to Klaasje at beginning of game when you are alone? I would assume you don't later on get the freak out from embarassing yourself while talking to her at least xD