A Place Further Than the Universe

Man, those were some nasty bitches right there. It felt so satysfing when Shirase told them to piss off.

Basically exactly what Lyendith said. To my knowledge, the same ambiguity exists in 'Gin to Takako no musume' as in 'Gin and Takako's daughter'. That said, Gin wasn't shown to be a formidable opponent like Takako was and the focus of Kanae's defeatism was mostly on Shirase, so I'm choosing to interpret it more as 'Gin and Takako'.

...So, just to be clear, what was it that those girls did to Hinata? Because I don’t think I quite caught that, and I think that’s somewhat impacting how I’m viewing Shirase calling them out.

They convinced her not to go easy on the senior when the club was choosing who to send on to competition that would be the seniors last, and then when the seniors started whining about it they pushed the blame on Hinata.

...At least that's what I understood.

I thought that was it too, although I was somewhat confused, seeing as they didn't really show any track stuff in action.

...Yeah, I'll confess...I'm not wholly convinced that this merited a This Is Unforgivable! or whatever Shirase's point was. I mean, yeah, it was shitty, but...were they not supposed apologize for it? I mean, if they weren't sincere about it, sure, but...I didn't get the impression that they weren't sincere? I mean, it doesn't help that we barely see them, and don't even see a reaction to Shirase calling them out.

edited 13th Mar '18 7:12:19 PM by KarkatTheDalek

They’re strolling up claiming to be Hinata’s friends and speaking to her on a livestream (aka in public), when they’ve made no attempt to make amends in private before this. The e-mail doesn’t count; it was sent after they were already confirmed as participants in the livestream. This whole thing reeks of them trying to leech off of Hinata’s newfound “fame” as one of the first Japanese high-schoolers to go Antarctica, and force forgiveness out of her by placing her on the spot in front of hundreds or even thousands of viewers. Sure she’s got them blocked on her phone, but surely they have at least some idea of where she lives, evidently being fairly close to her prior to the incident.

Also, they didn’t just throw Hinata under the bus when the seniors came whining to them about it, they went on to spread nasty rumours about Hinata afterward to cement their position of not being on her side.

edited 13th Mar '18 7:19:03 PM by HanabiraKage

That is an excellent point, and one I had considered, but I think it could have been presented better - again, we barely see these girls.

I dunno, maybe the problem is me here - maybe it was too subtle for me or something.

Edit: Okay, yeah, you're right, that's a really shitty thing to do - I suppose I just don't think that was emphasized enough.

edited 13th Mar '18 7:21:36 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Think of it this way: they’re not important. Not to the story, not to Hinata’s life. She’ll go on to possibly achieve greater things, or retain some measure of fame as one of the first Japanese high-schoolers to go to Antarctica, while those girls will fade into obscurity, forever remaining a mere footnote in her life. All that matters is that Hinata is now surrounded by people who will support her and will do anything to protect her, and like Yuzuki, Hinata now has a group of true friends rather than fair-weather friends who’ll sooner kick her off a cliff to save their own asses.

That's fair, but I think it was still to the story's detriment here not going into a little more detail.

Keep in mind that Hinata ended up getting bullied and ostracized to the point that she dropped out of school entirely. This was after they talked her into showing up their seniors and then throwing her under bus when they got approached about it.

Also I wouldn't say that Hinata's arc here was too subtle since the past episodes have kind of built up to this; her flaky explanation for why she decided to test out of school, her jaded reaction when she learned that rumors were also getting spread about Mari, her stubbornness on wanting to stay behind in Singapore when she thought she lost her passport. It was all building to the reveal that she must have been burnt in a bad way in the past.

edited 13th Mar '18 7:44:36 PM by Lionheart0

Yeah, nevermind, I'm stupid. Maybe I just feel like we're dealing with Show, Don't Tell here?

edited 13th Mar '18 7:42:29 PM by KarkatTheDalek

I have to agree that it felt like the girls should have been shown doing something worse than being two-faced. This way is probably more realistic, but the episode's ending ends up feeling over-the-top

I mean, I think that being two-faced and effectively trying to force her into a position where she basically has to forgive them is enough - I just think that should have been emphasized more.

It's also implied with the email, honestly - that lingering shot near the middle card when Shirase read the email shows that the mail they sent Hinata was basically 'hey, sorry about that!', like the sort of apology you'd give for bowing out of going to see a movie on the weekend. It's nowhere near apologetic enough for ostracizing someone out of school entirely.

Additionally, they said that they should have stood up for Hinata when the upperclassmen were upset instead of staying quiet; they assumed that Hinata hadn't heard them throwing her under the bus and were trying to reingratiate themselves with her by putting all the blame on the upperclassmen, which is exactly what they did when they badmouthed Hinata. Once is a mistake, twice is a pattern.

Besides, the point that was being made was more like... you don't have to forgive people who have been shitty to you. You have no obligation to make them feel better and let them back in. If it won't help you feel better, you don't need to do it just for them.

Good points all around. I really do think my issue is presentation here, not the message.

I kinda sorta agree… We understand the situation and the message, but it's hard to actually feel what Hinata went through when we only have her listless verbal account. Though I guess is kinda the point − she has moved on from that and doesn't want to give those girls more attention than they deserve. I dunno, I'm ambivalent…

I thought that too, but if that's what she meant I'm a bit baffled by Gin and Shirase's lack of reaction to someone calling them mother and daughter…

What she means by that is kinda irrelevant to how the other characters parse it, though. They don't react because the show wants the viewer to consider the idea of Gin and Takako as a couple, but doesn't want to be obvious about it

Exactly.

However, that line basically answered in my head the question of 'where was Shirase's dad?' that has come up.

If Gin and Takako were a couple, dad was basically a turkey baster. (Takako got pregnant by in vitro fertilization or artificial insemination)

I dunno, that's not really how it looks like in the flashbacks, and Shirase definitely doesn't act like Gin was her other mother or some such.

Yeah, they don't seem that close. Gin was an occasional caretaker at best − and it doesn't seem she's been in charge of Shirase since Takako's death either (though I don't know how laws about homoparentality work in Japan).

edited 14th Mar '18 12:37:11 PM by Lyendith

Who was in charge of Shirase after Takoko's death?

Her... grandma I think?

That said, Gin does seem to have tried to be a parent to her to some extent - their relationship is very much ‘dad and daughter estranged by mum’s death’.

It’s unclear how established their relationship was by the time Takako died (though Takako trying to get Gin and Shirase to hang out suggests it was relatively new - that’s a very step-parent scene), but the fact that Gin mourned Takako at the Kobuchizawa family shrine in one scene suggests they were pretty established - it’d be a bit weird for even close friends to pray at each other’s family shrines.

Yeah, I'm not arguing that Gin is Shirase's other birth parent or even was ever her primary caretaker, but the way Takako is clearly trying to get them more used to spending time with each other definitely implies that she wants them to be comfortable around each other.

Also, despite Gin and Shirase's protestations, they clearly were closer than either thought, though Takako's death did drive a wedge between them.

I just assumed that Takako knew that Antarctic expedition is risky so she wanted Shirase and Gin to get closer in case she didn't make it, so Shirase would have an adult support. It didn't quite work out since Gin was the one who had to call of the search for her, but it wasn't a bad plan.