Darksiders 3

It's demonic magic, we don't have to explain it.

It really doesn't affect the flow of the game. The game is literally "Enter room. Do a thing. Move to another room, do another thing"

The first game at least was a bit better about integrating the puzzles into the environment. Still not great, but most of it was "find key to door," or maybe "reassemble key." There were a couple weird steps here and there, but nothing as immersion breaking as "someone randomly decided to create a giant puzzle room."

That being said, the Makers have enough quirks that I think they could have found a way to justify it. Just have one of them say "Oh, by the way, this place was a commission, and the eldritch entity who asked us to build it wanted lots of puzzles. Sorry about that, the customer is always right and everything." They already used something similar to justify why everything was mostly at Death's scale rather than the Makers'.

The explanation sort of falls apart when it's their own forge :-P

And when the puzzle is only a "puzzle" because Death is trying to reach a place in a way the place clearly wasn't designed for.

Speaking of replaying the games, so is it just me or does the plot of Darksiders 1 sort of make no sense?

So, Abadon, Azrael and Ulthane decide to fake the Apocalypse. They make a BFS. They'll destroy the seals^note Why does heaven own all 7 of the seals? if they exist to keep Heaven and Hell apart till Mankind is ready, shouldn't the Charred Council, who created them, have them?, ambush hell, kill them, and Ulthane will reforge the seals and they'll go "Well shit, Hell jumped the gun." Now this plan is already dumb since their entire plan revolves around no one being suspicious that heaven was immediately mobilized and yet hell the supposed aggressors were not. Anyway they break 6 of 7 seals but they don't reforge them because reasons.

But anyway things go FUBAR coz Lilith caught wind of their plans. War arrives, answering the seals despite the fact that #7 was never broken (Is it ever mentioned why War doesn't realize there's still a seal? Why don't any of the other riders show up?) Abaddon is seemingly killed, but not, switches side, goes to see Azrael, looks into the tree of knowlegde (A plot point that goes nowhere) shatters the Armageddon blade and takes the last seal ^note Darksiders 2 adds that he also went to see Lucian to go to the Well of Souls to be reincarnated as a Demon.

At some point Ulthane decides to go to Earth because reasons.

Now the Charred Council realizes they're being played by Abaddon (Though they can't figure out Ulthane's involvement), but have no proof. So they re-release War and send him on the watcher, knowing War will be all too keen to clear his name. They somehow choose to blame War for this even though they know it's not him and he's keen to prove it. Like, why was going "Yo War, we realize what's up, let's have you fix this" out of the question? War exposes Abaddon, kills him, Uriel shatters the last seal (with War's help) which presumably will piss off the Charred Council but it doesn't matter coz the 3 other Riders (Including a resurrected Death) now arrive.

Also, if the four are the council's enforcers, what's their purpose at showing up when the final seal is broken and it's open season between heaven and hell? They have no stake in the conflict.

Also Azrael mentions keeping the 7th seal intact SPECIFICALLY to avoid the Riders showing up. So why did War show up?

Not quite. Their plan was to assassinate the demon leaders the second their fake apocalypse started. We don't learn the specific function of most of the seals, but apparently they would prevent that sort of thing from happening normally. Under this plan, neither side would be mobilized, all the demon leaders would be dead, and the angels would be able to say "I dunno, they just attacked us!" There would be no one left to disagree with them, and obviously angels are more trustworthy than demons anyway. But they were betrayed, the demons were ready for them, and the Endwar got kicked off after all. You'll note that in the prologue there are far more demons than angels around; the angels weren't mobilized for anything.

They forged fake seals for the first six. So when people went to check on the seals, they all seemed to be intact—but in reality, only the seventh was.

Somebody—probably Lilith—faked the call that summons the horsemen, but only for War. He has no innate sense of the seals, he just heard the call, assumed the seventh seal was broken, and rode out as he was supposed to. It was only when he reached the battlefield that he realized something was wrong. This is also when Azrael realized something was wrong, because as noted, the Horsemen were not supposed to be there.

As for why only War received the fake call instead of all four of them, I'm not sure. There's still a lot of unanswered questions about the motivations of whoever did it.

This is supposition, but it seems to me like the Council was looking for any excuse to get rid of War. Maybe any excuse to get rid of any Horseman, since they're so dangerous. There might also be political stuff, too; they needed a fall guy, so letting him clear his name would have been counter productive. Better to just have the Watcher kill him once he served his purpose.

While their exact role is not stated outright, it is said over and over again that the Horsemen are supposed to take part in the Endwar. That's their job. You may as well ask why they're working for the Charred Council at all. Which isn't actually a bad question, but it's kinda like asking why an American soldier is in the Middle East—he's there because he was ordered to go there.

That being said, it's implied a few times that the Horsemen were intended to be some sort of mediators for the Endwar, either just making sure that the angels and demons stuck to the rules of the war or actively fighting beside the humans. You'll note that War expresses regret several times at the loss of the human race, and Death immediately decides the best way to solve the problem is to resurrect them. Not to mention that the whole thing started because Azrael wasn't sure Heaven could win a three way war between the angels, demons, and humans.

The Charred Council are actually terrified of the Four, as are practically everyone else. They know that the only things that really keep the Horsemen on their leash are the Seals and the Horsemen's own honor. That's why they lied to War about their reasons for sending him to supposedly clear his name. That's the revelation the Tree of Knowledge gave War in the first game.

The tie-in comics also reveal that War once tried to rebel against the Council and was subdued by the other Horsemen. That's probably another reason the Council wanted to ultimately get rid of War.

The Horsemen seem to regret that Humanity was not allowed to have a fighting chance in the Endwar like they were supposed to have. The Endwar was supposed to be a more balanced fight between Heaven, Hell, and the Kingdom of Man.

Also, I think it was Abaddon who came up with the scheme. Azrael was the one who initially protested that Humanity was not yet strong enough and was horrified by the consequences of their failed scheme.

Edited by M84 on Aug 27th 2018 at 10:46:32 PM

"The seals will be reforged. All will believe that hells' legions invaded and were delivered to Justice by our hands"

So the clear intent was to repair the seals after breaking them... One might argue that reforged the seals would lack whatever inate seal-ishness they had?

Based on this cutscene, I guess it's possible that the Council faked the call that War answered? So they could recall him and then "Offer" him a chance to prove his innocence. Specifically so he'd have a beef with Abaddon?

"We cannot stop Abaddon, but there are others who might, if they had reasons."

"We cannot send the four. Without proof there is no Justice, only murder. They will see only assassination."

"We will send one for whom Vengeance is reason enough"

If you assume this talk takes place Before War answers the call, it could mean they set him up.

Either way, the plot of the first game... if not full of holes, really badly explained?

That part is outright confirmed by the Black Throne cutscene.

I'm not questioning that. I'm questioning WHY they fight in the End War. What's their side?

The End war is supposed to be Heaven Vs Hell Vs Humanity for who inherits creation. Whats the Riders' stake in that war? Can they win? Do they get control of creation if they do? Or are they there to administer the conflict? Or end it early?

Coz like, War shows up and just begins killing demons.

Edited by Ghilz on Aug 27th 2018 at 11:57:40 AM

The Horsemen's only mission is to preserve the cosmic Balance. Their purpose in the Endwar is simply to clean up what's left after the carnage settles.

War attacked the demons because said demons were dumb enough to get in his way and actually attack him. Even he doesn't know why he's there because the other Horsemen aren't. He knows something is very wrong and is looking for answers. When he confronts Abaddon the first thing he does is ask where the other Horsemen are.

In the original plan for the Endwar, the Horsemen can't "win" anything. They forfeited the right to claim any prize long ago when they turned on their fellow Nephilim and swore loyalty to the Council.

It's actually somewhat poignant. Angels, Humans, and even Demons have places of their own and a chance to win it all (at least before the premature Endwar rendered Humanity a non-issue). The Nephilim are outcasts who don't belong anywhere.

Edited by M84 on Aug 28th 2018 at 1:05:39 AM

Wouldn't that be the Victor's job? That's usually what Victory in a war entails.

Plus if the Horsemen are to mop up when it's done, why does breaking the seals summon them (ie: When the end war STARTS) and not when a Victor is declared?

Edited by Ghilz on Aug 28th 2018 at 8:32:32 AM

Probably so that both sides follow the rules.

Their arrival heralds the beginning of the Endwar. They themselves presumably are only meant to act as the Council's enforcers throughout the whole thing and mop up when it's all settled.

It's all moot anyway since the premature Endwar made it all go to shit. By the end of the first game, the Horsemen are the enemies of all Creation, with no real allies anymore. All they have is each other.

Four Horsemen against Heaven, Hell, the Council, and everything in between? Bad odds...for the Horsemen's foes.

Edited by M84 on Aug 28th 2018 at 10:08:30 PM

What rules? Does the Endwar have rules of war and warcrimes?

They might end up with humanity on their side, since presumably they'll be grateful for Death resurrecting them. But how that process works is unclear, so we don't know if they'll become powerful quickly enough to be helpful.

Yes. The only rule we know is "don't launch a surprise attack and assassinate the enemy leaders," but there are rules.

Edited by Discar on Aug 28th 2018 at 7:53:12 AM

Other thing that's coming to mind replaying the first two games. Darksiders 2 may have the better plot delivery, but it also feels sooooo padded.

Every step in Death's quest has like a million sub step. Just take act one

Death Wants to go to the Tree of life

1. Get a Maker Key
   1. Reactivate the Cauldon
   2. Reactivate the Water thing
2. Activate a Maker Robot
   1. Activate a smaller maker robot so you can reach the place with the bigger maker robot.
3. Kill the giant robot you just made.

Act 2 is probably the worst with the Lord of Bones basically flat out admitting half of what he had you do had no purpose whatsoever. But the whole game is like that. Need to find how to get to the well of soul. Need to get the keys, need to get the means to time travel to get the keys. Need to get the magic stick.

The first game is also padded, but it feels more... straightforward? War basically just has a long kill list.

Amusingly that's what Fury's given too.

One big kill-list.

I'm curious as to what the Sins mean, whether they have an actual role in the grand war or if its just one big distraction for Fury.

I'd imagine they're really powerful demons who have been imprisoned for a long time before, and the Council doesn't like that, going by what I've heard of the plot.

PC Gamer's preview of the first few hours doesn't bring much optimism

Edited by UltraWanker on Oct 13th 2018 at 5:23:29 PM

Not looking good.

Funnily enough I feel DS 2 had the problem where it wwas too barren in the 2nd half of the game and how everything after the 2nd world felt rushed and barebones. The angels' and samael's world in particular are huge offenders. The dead world was by far the high point of the game.

A new trailer dropped earlier this week.

The Intro is out.

A new trailer.

...I already don't like Fury, if she's going to have an attitude like that. Hopefully she's better in the actual game.

Huh I always thought Strife would be the team asshole though weirdly Fury is still also the most loyal to the Council so she’s both hotheaded but loyal.

Makes me wonder how Strife is gonna turn out.

Good OP there.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 24th 2018 at 1:15:30 AM

Strife probably just doesn't really care about any of this. The kind of person who's just there to "get it over with" I assume.

Edited by UltraWanker on Nov 24th 2018 at 1:55:43 AM

I am assuming that Darksiders 4 is just going to be RDR but with ghosts, seeing as how Strife is basically a cowboy.

And I quite like Fury - the clue is the name after all. And the horsemen aren't know for being wallflowers. Fury is the most zealous of them it seems as well.