Re:Zero kara Hajimeru Isekai Seikatsu (Re: Life in a Different World from Zero)

Exactly, this is not the bombastic finale where they kiss and then the story ends. I believe eventually they will face issues as a relationship. Because the argument itself feels more like an actual argument, I can believe that when Subaru says somethings in a flawed manner, it feels more deliberate rather than it being just a story flaw.

I do admit, that was probably one of the most realistic arguments I've seen in fiction; you have two people that are just on two completely different wavelengths in a relationship and hampers their ability to communicate and connect.

We're too used to relationships in Anime being absolutely perfect and solving the couple's lingering issues. That's good in the sense of having catharsis, but its not how real relationships work.

Real relationships are messy, annoying, and the source of people's biggest headaches and that's everything that argument was, but in that it also establishes that just because its messy doesn't mean you can't work through it.

In case anyone couldn't tell, this entire episode is almost a direct call back to From Zero, except Subaru has taken Rem's role as encourager showing that he has clearly grown from his experiences and now its his turn to support the person that he loves.

Its not perfect but all they have is each other.

Actually, the episode does something a bit better, He first tries to do a Rem by explaining what he loves about her but Emilia then refuses to believe him so Subaru had to change strategy

My issue with the argument is that it was messy yet it still resolved the tension between Subaru and Emilia, even if only temporarily. Maybe I’m just cynical, but there’s no way that would have worked. There’s also the uncomfortable feeling that Subaru is professing his love and kissing Emilia in her moment of vulnerability.

Indeed, it’s not perfect. I actually think it should be a lot less perfect than it currently stands.

Edited by fillerdude on Jan 14th 2021 at 9:34:31 AM

Eh, I disagree but whatever. If you don't like it, I respect your opinion.

Yeah, I agree. If it was meant to be imperfect then make it imperfect, don't make it to the solution to all their current problems.

Edited by Clarste on Jan 14th 2021 at 10:08:25 AM

It isn't though. The issue isn't solved yet.

I feel like they're kind of talking past each other in some ways. Very subtle ways, but it's there. Ohmknight pointed out how Subaru attempts to be the Rem to Emilia's Subaru - which is kind of him, and it's clear that he intends to support her in her darkest time the same way Rem supported him in his - but that doesn't mean it works entirely, because that's not what Emilia wants out of the conversation.

What Subaru needed in "From Zero" was unconditional support, because he hated himself and didn't believe he could do anything. Rem gave him that unconditional support, and her love for him acted as validation that he was still worthy of being loved. That's what he needed, and so, that's what he went for with Emilia - unconditional love. But that's not really what she wanted; she wanted him to stop putting her on a pedestal and care enough about her to be angry that she did something stupid, to care about her rather than her pedestalized self. And to Subaru's credit he listened to her on that. But, I think he missed the mark with his execution, especially delivering his mom's message to her. After all, as much as it seemed to help Emilia at the moment, giving the message "It's not how you start, it's how you end" to someone who's worried about ending up as a fundamentally different person is not a good choice. He also didn't address her obvious concerns about abandonment and being lied to. But that's good writing.

Overall, I liked it a lot. Emotions are messy and this fight was very much a messy business; it progressed Emilia and Subaru's emotional states in the moment, resolved a few of their existing tension points, and introduced new ones. My current expectation/prediction is that ultimately, Emilia will become Satella or otherwise is Satella, and I think this scene is going to play a big part in that. It's shot, lit, and scored like a Big Damn Kiss, because it is a Big Damn Kiss for the two of them, but it's also not the kind of Big Damn Kiss that solves everything. And I think that's a pretty amazing feat of writing.

Edited by RedSavant on Jan 14th 2021 at 2:14:35 PM

I also love that the argument goes round and round with people changing subjects or at times repeating their points.

The bottom line is; their underlying issues aren't solved yet, but they're gonna try and work through it together.

If you think it should have been more messy and just outright not work, then yea you are probably too cynical about real relationships.

Not every relationship needs to fall apart because the couple have issues communicating, and this also ignores the fact that they've already had a falling out before because of it.

It's not about the underlying issues not being resolved, it's about the surface issues also not being resolved? It was just like, "whatever, let's kiss and it'll be okay" which just doesn't sit right with me at all. Literally nothing was concluded, they just papered it over with cheap sentiment. When cheap sentiment was kind of the issue in the first place?

Nothing about their argument felt to me like it should've brought them closer at all. I do not find it believable that Emilia would accept this from Subaru, and even if she does she probably shouldn't. That's, like, the seed of an abusive relationship at best.

At the moment I am not even rooting for this relationship to work out which is probably not what the author intended.

Edited by Clarste on Jan 15th 2021 at 3:03:36 AM

Like I said, I'm getting the sense that this is intentionally leading into Emilia becoming Satella somehow. To me, Subaru's declaration that he'll even rescue Satella points to that. (I know I spoilered it last time, but we've all met Satella by now, and it's WMG anyway, so.)

Anyway, I do think the drama of the argument kind of also overshadowed that... there really wasn't too much substance to their argument. By which I mean, what they were arguing over. Emilia was upset that Subaru left without telling her, which he clearly feels bad about but won't or can't clarify right now, but more than that she's worried about her own internal journey and her memories. Subaru can't help with that and he can't promise she won't change the way she's afraid she might, but he can promise that he'll love her all the same, which he will. And his side of the argument, that she's troublesome and puts him to a lot of pain, is also said with the (spoken) guarantee that he does what he does by choice - and also shows him finally taking her down off the pedestal he put her on as "Emilia-tan" and actually talking to her like a person.

I don't think it's perfect. After a while it did feel like they were just repeating the same issues a few times in a row, and that's a writing issue even if it is character-driven. But I think it's probably a good step for them and it opens things up for them to talk more in the future.

Like I said, that's honestly just being cynical based on real relationships.

I'm not even saying its perfect, just pointing out that's likely the author's intent. This is an ongoing story, not the conclusion.

Wouldn't make much sense for everything to be solved right now.

"I'll break our promises, and I won't tell you why, but that's okay because I will always love you no matter what, just trust me!"

This relationship fucking sucks, I'm sorry. If you find that romantic I'd say that's actually a problem.

I'm not saying it's perfect. What I am saying is we're two episodes into the season and I'm expecting this will get more development later - development it's needed since the first cour of the original season.

Again, the question isn't whether it's perfect, it's "why did this end the scene and move on to the next bit?"

It's a much more basic writing problem than just "well, relationships are messy" imo. It's like someone knows about messy argument scenes where both characters lay out their messy emotions as the first step towards blah blah blah, except they didn't know how they work so they cargo-culted one that might look like one from a distance but once you look closer it makes no fucking sense at all. It does not contain the necessary pieces to move the characters forward, nor the story. The more you make me think about it, the more of a disaster this scene seems like to me.

Edit: Basically there is no point where it is reasonable to transition from "Emilia is crying about stuff that she has a very good reason to be upset about" to "both characters have calmed down and are now confronting Garfield outside the temple." Like, how did this happen? It is a mystery.

Edited by Clarste on Jan 15th 2021 at 4:40:34 AM

Welp, I don't really know what else to say. At this point, it seems like we just fundamentally disagree on the nature of the scene.

Can I ask you though, how would you compare this to From Zero's scene?

seriously, Re:Zero is gonna be 11 arcs long, "From Zero" was the end of the prologue, we're barely out of the prologue and barely into Act 2, of course their relationship isn't perfect. that's gonna be worked on in this and the following arcs

Edited by MABfan11 on Jan 15th 2021 at 3:42:53 PM

Clarste gets to the point of my contention with that scene— I can't believe Emilia would calm down from a kiss when it's exactly that kind of "shallow" expression of loyalty and love that she's having issues with.

This I actually agree with. In fact, I will commend the author for writing an argument that's messy, irrational and raw. However, I do think that it was resolved too cleanly. I wanted to see that while they've put off the problem for now, it's still there. But they sold that scene as the Big Damn Romantic Kiss, and that just strikes me like the start of an unhealthy relationship.

... which if that's the case, then I'm more than willing to eat crow.

I'm not miffed that their relationship isn't perfect. That's obvious, and it obviously get explored further. I (and Clarste) am talking specifically about that scene. I think the author messed up the resolution of that argument.

I do get that, yeah. I mean, like I said, my running assumption is that Emilia either becomes or is Satella, and the seeds of that unhealthy love have to get planted sometime. But we'll have to see how things progress from here.

Then again, let's compare this to "From Zero" again, AKA the last episode anime Rem was allowed to do anything other than say "Hai, Subaru-sama", and maybe it's just that Nagatsuki doesn't know how to write a healthy romantic relationship?

I think it was healthy that Subaru didn't string Rem along. I can respect that.

Side note, good times, I remembered how angry a big chunk of the fandom was at the rejection.

I'm still kind of annoyed that they cut out Rem's later essential proposal and Subaru's acceptance of such. I don't think at all that the series has given us enough interaction between Rem and Emilia to make the proposed triad work - hell, it feels rare enough that we get enough chemistry for either of them with Subaru - but it would still be an interesting decision to go in if it was presented as an actual triad and not just a harem.

Triad > Cutting out > harem, in terms of ways I'd like to see that handled.

Edited by RedSavant on Jan 15th 2021 at 10:52:16 AM

Speaking of, I hardly see anybody talk about how he still has feelings for her, enough that he tries to tell Emilia about it in the first episode of season 2, he kills himself trying to save Rem from being eaten by Gluttony, and got very upset when Carmilla impersonated her. I know the anime has a tendency to downplay Rem, but come on.

does anyone know how the argument went in the web novel? Arc 4 in the WN is loooong, so it's probably more detailed

Yeah, even in season 1,He stated that he has 2 people in his heart when talking to Crusch.

Edited by Ohmknight on Jan 15th 2021 at 8:40:27 PM