ufotable's Fate/Stay Night

I'm assuming this thread will remain open for the Heavens Feel movies or will it and the Apocrypha anime get new threads?

Heaven's Feel is being produced by ufotable so this topic can cover it.

Don't know about Apocrypha. That one might need its own.

Yeah. We really need to drop the king debate now.

I just got a bad feeling about it.

Better.

A good king has the smallest number of resources of any member of their kingdom. A good king has no slaves. A good king allows no discrimination against any demographic. A good king is humble. A good king makes all their policies benefit those who suffer the most instead of themselves. A good king does not conquer. A good king wants every member of their kingdom to be better off than themselves.

This explains my opinions on who is and isn't a good king.

EDIT:And now your trolling has reached the level that it is no longer worth engaging with you.

edited 12th Jan '17 1:05:16 PM by Sereg

And therefore, Gil and Iksander are good kings.

Actually I think Artoria became a conqueror in the Camelot arc of Grand Order.

A quite brutal one at that, total Knight Templar shit like killing people for the smallest slight of hesitation or whatever. Way worse then what Iskandar or Gil ever did during their tenures surprisingly enough. She was a fucking monster in all honesty.

edited 12th Jan '17 1:11:47 PM by slimcoder

Admittedly, I don't think even Artoria was perfect. Just not absolutely terrible.

EDIT: But punishing people for treason is justified.

edited 12th Jan '17 1:10:12 PM by Sereg

She was basically nuking everyone who didn't have a fully pure heart or something and had all of the Knights of the Round Table who weren't willing to go along with it killed.

But Gilgamesh uses his resources for the people. He gives them away to the people as needed. I don't remember seeing any slaves in Babylon either, just Gilgamesh really caring for his people. And when did he discriminate? I guess in FGO he didn't like the spider abomination monsters that were slaughtering and converting his people, so he did everything he could to destroy those guys. His policies benefited his people, he didn't conquer anyone and he wanted his people to be well off and prosperous, which they were.

Artoria had way more stuff than her people, so she's no better in that respect. Wasn't very nice to the Saxons or whatever, so no good there. Oh, and she killed Twrch Trwyth, the king of a native population of the British isles. Finally, she left Briton to go fight and kill Romans and killed some of her own people when they rebelled, so she's more of a conqueror than Gil.

Artoria also didn't help those who were suffering most either, she helped the greatest number she could by frequently sacrificing those who suffered most. Pragmatic, but she's disqualified multiple times over from being a good ruler by your own metric while Gilgamesh comes much closer to succeeding.

Artoria bad, Gilgamesh great. And I didn't even have to bring up the Lion King.

edited 12th Jan '17 1:25:44 PM by Arha

Man,the Rome episode was weird in Arturian myth.Wasn't the WRE already dead by that point?

Just makes it sad that the ERE is ignored.

edited 12th Jan '17 1:28:36 PM by alekos23

He backtracked when I mentioned what she did as the Lion King.

Its clear his arguments are completely biased towards how great Saber is no matter the actual evidence against her.

edited 12th Jan '17 1:32:37 PM by slimcoder

Lion King isn't actually Artoria.She's a lance goddess.

Gilgamesh was so obsessed with keeping his treasures for himself, he fought the grail war entirely because he was offended by the idea of someone having something of his, after he died which he's never even seen before.

As for oppression and slavery:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

"The first half of the story discusses Gilgamesh, king of Uruk, and Enkidu, a wild man created by the gods to stop Gilgamesh from oppressing the people of Uruk."

"Gilgamesh, two-thirds god and one-third man, is oppressing his people, who cry out to the gods for help. For the young women of Uruk this oppression takes the form of a droit du seigneur, or "lord's right", to sleep with brides on their wedding night. For the young men (the tablet is damaged at this point) it is conjectured that Gilgamesh exhausts them through games, tests of strength, or perhaps forced labour on building projects."

" Learning from a passing stranger about Gilgamesh's treatment of new brides, Enkidu is incensed and travels to Uruk to intervene at a wedding. When Gilgamesh attempts to visit the wedding chamber, Enkidu blocks his way, and they fight. "

"Gilgamesh, out of spontaneous rage, destroys the stone-giants that live with Urshanabi."

" For reasons unknown (the tablet is partially broken) Enkidu is in a sad mood. In order to cheer him up Gilgamesh suggests going to the Pine Forest to cut down trees and kill Humbaba (known here as Huwawa). "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Dynasty_of_Ur

"Certain groups indeed seem to work under compulsion."

"Slaves also made up a crucial group of labor for the state. One scholar[who?] estimates that 2/5 of chattel slaves mentioned in documents were not born slaves but became slaves due to accumulating debt, being sold by family members, or other reasons."

Artoria merely defended her people and occasionally had to cut her losses.

EDIT:

Where did I backtrack? And here the evidence is.

edited 12th Jan '17 1:43:25 PM by Sereg

Arthur killed a boatful of babies when Mordred was born.

Ok that's just BS. Now your using the original legend of Gilgamesh when the Fate Gilgamesh while being based on the legendary character is not entirely the same. We have on onscreen evidence from Grand Order that have shown else in explicit detail how great a king Gil was.

Your also apologizing what Artoria is doing even if its similar to what Iskandar or Gil would do. You are aware in the original myths that King Arthur was rather classist, a warlord & had no problem killing peasants right? I mean even Lancelot was a bit of a violent psycho back then.

edited 12th Jan '17 1:51:12 PM by slimcoder

Okay you guys really need to chill before the mods get involved.

Very little of that is true in the Nasuverse. And some is an exaggeration, in Grand Order he gave his treasures away to the people to better defend Uruk from Tiamat's monsters and gave Uruk's Holy Grail away to save Kingu's life despite the fact he was serving Tiamat.

edited 12th Jan '17 1:53:15 PM by doineedaname

Like I said, we all need to drop this argument. Seriously.

That is a massive mark against her, I admit. But Gil and Iskander were more consistently terrible.

Did Artoria fail to live up to my standards? Absolutely. I don't think there's a single king who did. I mean, I'm against kings in principle anyway. I wouldn't want Artoria to rule. But if I had to choose between her, Gil and Iskander, well, I think there are few who would do worse than Gil and Iskander. They utterly disgust me on practically every level.

So, if I'm biased, it's not towards Arturia, but away from them.

EDIT: I use the original myths as they're part of the character. Even discounting them, what we see on screen in Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero is plenty for me to declare him terrible. Just his boasting and love of his treasures would be enough. Him trying to wed Arturia against her will is just the icing on the cake.

Arturia, in contrast, is honourable throughout both series.

edited 12th Jan '17 1:57:53 PM by Sereg

...You need to stop man. Just let it go. You're not helping your case.

Why're you quoting the epic of Gligamesh and not the Gilgamesh as used by Nasu? Not applicable. Enkidu was sent for entirely different reasons. And he gives away his treasures as needed to defend the citizens of Uruk, his friends or his personal retainers. He even gives a grail away to save an enemy that will otherwise bleed to death. That's basically what his NP as a Caster is: Arming the people of Uruk with his treasures and firing them from the walls of the city at the enemy.

And you ignored her killing Twrch Trwyth. Or rather, trying to kill him and leaving him in agony for thousands of years before finally finishing the job. You also ignored that she pragmatically cut her losses instead of actually trying to help those who were worst off, which is one reason her knights didn't always particularly like her. That's exactly what you said a good ruler doesn't do.

Honestly, earlier I was just going to mock you, but your views are genuinely inconsistent and really have nothing to do with how these characters actually ruled in any sense. I could understand if you were using some strange values system we don't agree with, but even then you are not judging the characters consistently. By your own metric, Gilgamesh is at least as good of a ruler as Artoria is and by any other he's much better.

Earlier I was kidding, but I'll say it seriously now. Please just admit that you like Saber more and therefore have decided she was a better ruler.

Edit: Even if you were using the correct version of Gilgamesh's backstory, which you aren't, he still basically repented and became a great king.

edited 12th Jan '17 2:02:22 PM by Arha

Seriously this is annoying as hell. We should be talking about shit that actually matters here not wasting time pointlessly discussing the inane & insane.

I also now dislike Artoria cause of this so thanks for that.

edited 12th Jan '17 2:00:24 PM by slimcoder

You're welcome.

Wasn't referring to you Arha.

edited 12th Jan '17 2:04:06 PM by slimcoder

Hey hey! Don't go disliking a character just because of an argument that annoys you!

A character should be liked or disliked on their own merits. Not because of your feelings about their fans or because of some discussion that got on your nerves. We gotta be fair about these things.

Edit: Umm....

How about that....Archer huh? He's sure got issues.

edited 12th Jan '17 2:05:46 PM by HandsomeRob