DC Comics' Corny-ness vs. Marvel Comics' Cynacism

Hell every Aquaman comic post crisis might as well be called "Overcompensating For The Super Friends".

That's what I liked the best about Batman The Brave And The Bold Aquaman. They weren't apologizing for Superfriends Aquaman. They weren't worrying about apologizing for the umpteenth time about that. They were saying 'Screw that Noise, We're Keeping the Orange Shirt, we aren't Making him Grim and Gritty, but we are making him Awesome but in OUR own way. We aren't looking back to do the complete opposite thing, which is just as bad as looking back to do the same old thing.' And it was fucking AWESOME.

Why can't the comics get that is beyond me.

DC does seem to be actively ashamed of the fact that their business is to make superhero comics. Almost everything they've been doing lately is part of a desperate attempt To Be Taken Seriously™. Comics Are Totes Not For Kids, Really You Guys.

Honestly, I can't remember the last time I picked up a Superhero comic from the last 15 years or so and thought, 'Yeah, this is totally for kids.' Mind you, every now and then, something more kid-oriented comes along, (such as 'Shazam: The Monster Society',) but for the most part, I haven't been getting the feeling that kids are really part of the audience.

I'm not saying that is actually the case, but it's definitely what publishers think the general public conception of comics is. And it's not entirely unfounded, either. There are still a lot of people out there who think comic books are for small children and therefore not worthy to be taken seriously as a medium.

Well, i've just thought of another reason why this discussion is relevant to me; because, as i've said before, Marvel does things that DC doesn't, which seems wrong, given the former franchise's knack for cynicism

In the past, my gripe was that "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes", "Ultimate Spiderman" and "Avengers Assemble" all delved more into Thor's background within Norse Mythology, while "Justice League" and "Justice League Unlimited" hardly ever delved into Wonder Woman's background in Greek Mythology.

But now, my new gripe is that Marvel puts more emphasis on the simplier things than DC. For example: i don't think i've seen a DC show that put as much emphasis on a romantic relationship as Marvel's shows. Nor have i seen a DC show that included Graduation, while Marvel had that one episode of "X-Men Evolution" that delved into it.

So, you're mainly talking about the shows then? I haven't watched it in a while, but I remember that the Justice League show had romantic relationships. Granted, I haven't watched any Marvel shows to compare it with, but I don' think it needed to focus on romance any more than it already did. And there's probably much more of the simple personal stuff if you go into the DC live action shows (which I also have limited experience with).

edited 21st May '14 4:57:58 PM by supergod

Well, on their adaptations, I think Marvel has a slight tendency to stay closer to the spirit of the source material than DC does. Compare Super Friends (or Super Powers Team-whatever it was called at the time), which has been discussed a lot, to Spider-man And His Amazing Friends. Why not "cynical", the latter is a lot less squeamish. Sure, Wolverine can't stab anyone, but he can be knocked around, struck. On super friends, no body so much as threw a punch. The villains of Amazing friends generally had more understandable goals at a more personal scale, they usually weren't out to cause natural disasters for the sake of it or sitting around in a flying base on a swamp monologing about how to destroy the Spider-friends through convoluted time travel that would lead to Bobby Drake never going to high school. The Amazing Friends weren't easily thwarting the same eye beam spamming villain who wanted to marry Firestar every week. As a result, Marvel has not gotten the "corny" stigma as hard.

Sure, let's forget every DC animated production made after BTAS has ever happened (hell, even Teen Titans Go! can be quite cynical and dark at times).

Eh, Teen Titans refer to themselves as "heroes" as if its a life occupation without any sort of irony. Granted, I think that cartoon was better than Ultimate Avengers, Animarvel (possible excepting Blade, which I haven't watched) or whatever else Marvel ran against it but this was still the series that turned Robin and Cyborg into giant shadowy heads as they argued about cinderblock.

Maybe the perception here is that corny is "worse" than cynicism. As said, I think Teen Titans, Legion Of Superheroes or the entirety of the DCAU was superior to almost all of Marvel's animated equivalents.

I'll give it to Marvel in live action film, for the most part, but from Incredible Hulk (which coincidentally happened to be one of their weaker efforts), they've consistently been more lighthearted than their comic counterparts, obligatory headbutting and pointless fights aside.

I'll mostly give it to Marvel on video games too, I mean enjoyability. Not embodiments of corny or cynicism. But if pressed, I'd say the plot of Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe is cornier than say, Marvel Vs Capcom 3 simply because the former takes itself seriously and tried to justify things no one cares about in fighting games anyway while at the same time censoring out what we all came to see anyway (Subzero ripping out Superman's spine by his head. Without that we just got a clumsy fighting game where everyone loses a pint of blood with every punch, lame). While the Marvel vs title revealed the developers clearly had no idea how those things we call Power Levels work, at all, the fact that it had opened up to Mike Haggar chasing after the Dread Dorammu with a broken pipe for lighting one of his campaign posters on fire shows they didn't really care to, and it was better off for it.Not sure which Marvel Game I would put up against Injustice, Gods Among Us, for a more recent comparison.

@comicwriter

Ha! Too fucking true. Despite his many attempts to act like a badass I will rip on him.

This parody of him makes further lol of him:

I disagree it really cannot be overstated how much damage Superfriends did to Aquaman's rep. Most people do not realize that Aquaman's premise does legitimately make him a badass.

My impression of Aquaman was cemented from a very early age due to this

@ Mr.Didact

IIRC during that time of Justice League cartoon we had the Star Wars prequels and having had that on the mind a lot I thought of him and Aqua's as the same (what with them missing a hand and getting an prosthetic one). Also the PPG shorts with Superfriends- this one:

You can practically hear WW thinking "No shit" when Aquaman says how he can't contact his aquatic friends.

I just remembered another factor in this issue for me:

I once tried to imagine what would happen if J. Jonah Jameson and/or Senator Robert Kelly were brought to the DC universe, and how things would work for them there in comparison to how they worked in their own world. Part of me wants to believe that the things they did in the Marvel universe wouldn't fly in the DC universe (for example: If Jameson tried to discredit, say, Batman like he did Spiderman, the general public would not be as receptive as his New York public was. In fact, they might have even just spat on his opinions). But considering that DC comics has its own versions of these characters (DC's G. Gordon Godfrey is their equivalent to J. Jonah Jameson), i now find that unlikely.

Except that JL Aquaman is basically Namor with Aquaman's body transplanted on. It's most evident in 'Terror Beyond', (which was such a Defenders sendup that it basically turned Grundy into a Hulk expy with a consistent gold fetish,) but he also often acts like Namor outside of that episode as well. And don't get me wrong, I like Namor. It's just that when I see Aquaman, I expect to get Aquaman, in both appearance and personality; not Aquaman In Name Only.

Only in the DCAU. In the comics, Godfrey's a freaking God. I'm pretty sure that Jameson' never came anywhere near that particular position.

edited 3rd Jul '14 12:43:55 PM by kkhohoho

1. My statement still stands

2. In a few Spider-Man cartoons, J. Jonah Jameson makes a few statements about "leaving it to Police" in regards to Spider-Man. At least three different media versions of Batman did the same thing as well. However, the problem with that statement is, in both the Spider-Man and Batman stories, it's basically established that the Police are powerless against the villain the heroes fight. Not only is that an insult to the Police force, but it also takes away any real justification for Jameson's argument, or anyone else's for that matter. Because, if Batman and Spider-Man did "leave it to the Police", the danger likely would not have been stopped.

...I don't see what that has to do with Godfrey being a God, and Jameson not being one.

The second one was a semi different topic

STAS Aquaman probably struck a better balance between making Aquaman badass AND recognizable than JL and JLU did.

But I still prefer BATB's reinterpretation.

The BATB Aquaman was Marvel's Hercules.

Well, there you go. Both JLU and BB seem to prefer other characters from their freaking rival company so much that they would rather just use them, with Aquaman's body transplanted on in both cases. Is it really that hard to adapt Comic!Aquaman's character and personality? I don't think it would be that hard. Aquaman would still be a Bad Ass; he just would have his own unique personality rather than having imported ones from the other side of the fence.

What IS Aquaman's personality ? I don't mean this as a bash, I have honestly not read his stories, only seen him in adaptions: BATB, JLU, The Flashpoint adaption and so on.

What's he like normally ? I always had the idea that he's like Black Panther, but that could be just cos they're both super-hero kings.

I haven't read that much of Aquaman either, but I've read some; mainly classic Justice League, (1960-1984,) and the Peter David run. In classic Justice League, Aquaman is generally calm, collected, and even somewhat easygoing at times, though when there's a crisis, he always stays focused on the task at hand. Peter David!Aquaman is rather stoic and temperamental, like the tides of the ocean. He can still be calm and collected, but when the situation calls for it, he can also be rather aggressive, and can at times be anti social. However, he never goes anywhere near Namor levels of rudeness or arrogance, and is still a hero at heart, caring not just for his Kingdom of Atlantis, but for the rest of the world as well. Of course, Atlantis is still his top priority, but if places other than Atlantis need saving, he'll still save them, whereas JLU Aquaman might leave New York to be vaporized by the latest death ray if Atlantis wasn't in any peril. (That applies to classic Justice League Aquaman as well.)

Hmm. What about Alex Ross' Aquaman, then? He struck me as close enough to the classic model while being sufficiently badass (although in a somewhat forced way at times).

I doubt BATB was consciously trying to ape Marvel Hercules. Mostly just going to the basic Boisterous Bruiser character template, which hardly started with Marvel Herc either.

His facial hair is nigh-identical, despite being blonde.