DC Comics General

Then why does Darkseid and Doomsday coming back negate Superman killing them? You've been consistent that resurrections negate the fact that characters actually did die. Hell, you claim that the Joker "just maimed [Jason] to the point of death."

Batman has killed vampires, demons and once attempted to kill Swamp Thing. Superman killed a Brainiac from another universe, Darkseid, Doomsday. Neither he nor Batman had an issue with Diana killing Medusa on live television.

A fan also made a list of times Diana has killed. You'll see that some of them were a) done in front of Superman and/or Batman and b) involved non-humans with neither Superman and Batman protesting.

The only time Superman has ever expressed remorse for killing someone is when the enemy looked human.

But it only applies after they come back to life, not before. I feel like you are being deliberately obtuse here with misunderstanding what I'm saying.

1. Vampires are already dead.
2. Demons are literally from the underworld.
3. And no, he wasn't trying to kill him, only incapacitate him.

Also, Superman has spared numerous aliens who haven't looked human (including during the Hitman/JLA crossover), so, again, you're wrong.

Diana kills. I've never stated that Diana doesn't kill. And Batman and Superman are fine with Diana killing as long as it's a last resort, which it was with Medusa. (The issue with Maxwell Lord was the fact that she did it in such a callous manner on TV.)

You seem to be trying to twist all my arguments to fit your idea of what I'm saying without actually understanding what I'm saying.

Edited by alliterator on Aug 19th 2019 at 9:20:43 AM

I'm being obtuse?

There have been stories in the DCU pointing out that vampires aren't simply chaotic evil, undead abominations. Hell, one of the Outsiders was a vampire.

And?

He attacked him with defoliant, a chemical used in war fare.

Yes, one story versus several others where he kills aliens and non-humans clearly proves I'm wrong.

I never said he doesn't spare aliens. Only that his rule doesn't apply to them.

Her killing of Max wasn't any less callous than her killing of Medusa. She didn't even know she was being recorded when she killed Max and the video of her doing it was edited to make her look like the villain. Sasha Bordeaux showed the real tape to Diana's attorney and the judge and it was pointed out that the tape would exonerate Diana and prove Max had to be killed.

The mental gymnastics you've displayed this conversation began are worthy of an Olympic gold medal.

Edited by windleopard on Aug 19th 2019 at 9:35:07 AM

There have been just as many stories in the DCU showing vampires as Always Chaotic Evil. As I said: it's due to inconsistent writing.

I'm pretty sure if you look up "Things it is okay to kill," "demons" would be at the top of the list, considering they are, you know, demons.

...to deprive the enemy of food. Defoliants kill plants. Batman was trying to use it to stop Swamp Thing from attacking Gotham, but he never says he wants to kill Swamp Thing. Also: he fails completely.

Many stories. There are many stories where he spares his alien enemies.

And now is when I bring back the fact that you are only arguing over semantics.

Isn’t Swamp Thing, like, made of plants? Even if it didn’t work, I feel like the possibility that it might kill him should have at least been considered.

Oh God! Natural light!

Batman was still under the impression that Alec Holland's body was underneath all those plants.

I'm sure Blue Devil and Raven would love to hear that.

Did you forget what Swamp Thing was when you typed this?

I'm actually been trying to use arguments based on what has actually happened in the comics vs whatever the hell you've been doing for the past few pages.

Neither of them are demons.

Once again: Batman was still under the impression that Alec Holland was under the plants, not that he was a plant elemental. Also, he never states that he wants to kill Swamp Thing, only stop him.

This is like saying "Batman punches people in the face. Punching someone in the face can kill them, therefore Batman is totally okay with killing people."

Now I know you're not being serious.

In fairness, I don’t know if I’d necessarily call them demons either. Demon-adjacent, maybe?

Anyway, alliterator, am I to understand you think that since resurrection exists in the DC universe, that heroes killing people doesn’t really count or whatever?

Oh God! Natural light!

Just because they look like demons doesn't mean they are demons. Blue Devil was a human stuntman who had a demonic-looking exoskeleton mystically bonded with him. Raven is the half-human/half-demon daughter of Trigon. And she would be the first to tell you that Trigon should definitely be killed and it's totally okay to kill pure demons.

If the person they killed has come back to life, then in a court of law, it doesn't count. (Please note the "in a court of law." I'm not saying that killing is okay, I'm saying that, legally, if a person is alive, then you can't prosecute their killer for murder. Maybe attempted murder?)

Edited by alliterator on Aug 19th 2019 at 10:17:37 AM

I don't think a DC series has ever pinned down whether "he came back to life" let's someone get off scott free.

Certainly, I think that if resurrection exists, then that ought to merit a change in the books.

Oh God! Natural light!

Depends on the character honestly

Hal faced alot of opposition when he was revived even after the whole stint as Spectre

Hawk/Henry Hall was for the most treated like he always was once he came back from the Extant thing 'You know Massacring half the JSA'

I'm A Pervert not an Asshole!

I think we’re talking about characters being charged for killing people who have since been resurrected, rather than those who did the killing being resurrection.

Regardless, I’ll admit I’ve lost track of the argument somewhat. Is the legality of it really relevant here? Why is that being argued, exactly?

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Aug 19th 2019 at 1:51:11 PM

Oh God! Natural light!

I doubt even they know.

Wake me up at your own risk.

I think at this point they're just arguing for the sake of it.

Edited by kkhohoho on Aug 19th 2019 at 12:54:16 PM

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around

Someone asked me of I would blame Joker for killing Jason Todd, since he came back to life. And my response was, well, legally, no, you can't. Because you can't charge someone for murder if the victim is alive. Attempted murder, yes. (Also, the Joker did kill Jason Todd's mother, too, and she hasn't come back from the dead...that I know of.)

In other cases, Doomsday and Darkseid are both beings that have come back from the dead multiple times (Doomsday was designed to adapt and come back from the dead, while Darkseid is a New God and can resurrect himself in new bodies), so they are effectively immortal. So "killing" them isn't really killing them either.

Edited by alliterator on Aug 19th 2019 at 11:00:27 AM

I think it’s a mistake to universally apply our laws to the DC universe - I feel like that they have enough differences from our reality that stuff like resurrection ought to be taken into account.

Was legality really relevant to the conversation, though?

Oh God! Natural light!

There's no legal precedent for charging a murderer after their victim comes back to life.

I mean, morally, is killing someone you know will eventually come back to life okay?

...no, really, is it? Daisy did it in the last season of Agents of SHIELD with Sarge and all she got was a talking to.

Edited by alliterator on Aug 19th 2019 at 11:04:39 AM

For the record, I wasn't the one who brought legality into the conversation.

And all of this started because alliterator assumed someone liked Man of Steel just because they didn't like Superman's character in Superman:TAS.

Edited by windleopard on Aug 19th 2019 at 11:08:33 AM

There’s certainly something to be said about killing someone and resurrecting them ad infinitum. I’m pretty sure one of Talia’s sisters did that to her once.

I’d probably factor in whether the killer knew that the victim would be resurrected and whether they had malicious intent.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Aug 19th 2019 at 2:13:16 PM

Oh God! Natural light!

Yep, Nyssa killed her and resurrected her a bunch of times with the Lazarus Pit.

Yeah, it was Nyssa (don't know if Talia has any other sisters though). It ended up driving Talia mad and making her renounce her love for Bruce.

Of course, the Joker did not kill Jason with the knowledge he'd be back later. In fact, this was back when deaths in DC weren't quite known for being so often reversed.