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Somber Since: Jun, 2012
#1: Oct 26th 2013 at 11:01:33 PM

So in this story, I have a scene where the head of the UNOOSA has an appointment scheduled for an extra terrestrial. He thinks it's a Hollywood gag, or a joke, or potentially a chance for an extra long lunch if the 'appointment' does not show, but he's a good sport about it. To his surprise, a 4'2" blue furred canid biped walks in right on time.

I know what his reaction might be, but I'm curious what some other folks would do and what your reactions would be. What questions would you ask it? Would you immediately notify security? Ask it to prove its authenticity? Tell it to go and never look back at this planet?

MattStriker Since: Jun, 2012
#2: Oct 26th 2013 at 11:07:03 PM

That particular alien? I'd ask him if he'd ever heard of furries and point him towards some parts of the internet detailing the phenomenon. I suppose that might cause the end of the world, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to resist.

On a slightly more serious note, I'd ask him WTF was up with the whole Fermi Paradox thing.

Reality is for those who lack imagination.
Somber Since: Jun, 2012
#3: Oct 26th 2013 at 11:50:24 PM

"Oh, we're out there. We use technology that employs signals that you can't detect... yet. But we've been paying attention to you since you split atoms. And... um... we have some concerns. So we've been quiet... and our concerns have risen. But given what you've done recently with your large collier, we can't be silent any more."

Peter34 Since: Sep, 2012
#4: Oct 26th 2013 at 11:53:14 PM

I'd observe it carefully. That might seem rude, but it's the first of its kind that I've ever seen, and it ought to understand that. I'd be particularly interested in its apparent brain volume, any natural weapons it might have (claws or fangs, or anything odd-looking that might be a weapon), and its senses (including the possibility that the kinds of light it can perceive extends past our visual spectrum at either or both ends, or excludes part of it).

I'd also be careful about English words that can be ambiguous or can be misunderstood. I'm bilingual in English and Danish so that helps me be better aware of such things.

As for questions, I suppose I'd ask it what they call themselves, and what they call us, where they come from, what they eat, if they can eat our food, what their intentions are with regards to contacting us. I'd also ask probing questions, trying to find out how much it personally knows about science, and about us, about our history and our various atrocities.

I'd try to get a sense of its personality and individual abilities, how smart it is, how adaptable it i, how curious it is, whether it is aggressive or calm, a stickler for protocol or relaxed about such things, and if it might get spooked by new and strange things suddenly occuring.

Peter34 Since: Sep, 2012
#5: Oct 26th 2013 at 11:55:30 PM

Also, I'd try to estimate, probably as an on-going thing, why this particular individual has been chosen as ambassador. One can utilize one or more of several different criteria for picking a first-contact ambassador, so: What is it about this one that makes its superiors assume that it'd be a good envoy to send? I wouldn't ask, of course, not directly, but it'd be part of my probing questions process, trying to find that out.

KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#6: Oct 27th 2013 at 12:06:47 AM

FTL travel: how do you do it?

SilentlyHonest Since: Oct, 2011
Somber Since: Jun, 2012
#8: Oct 27th 2013 at 12:22:38 AM

Head is somewhat larger than its body. Large eyes and ears. Cutish. No clothes, but intricate jewelry. And it heard the signal to your cell phone before it rang, and politely said it would wait.

I suppose I'd ask it what they call themselves: It lets out a high pitched chirp. "You can call my species whatever words you'd like to call hermaphroditic mammalian insectocarnovorous philosophers."

what they call us, "A very terrifying prospect."

where they come from, "Next door, relatively speaking."

what they eat, "Levo proteins and fungal matter."

if they can eat our food, "I wouldn't know where to start."

what their intentions are with regards to contacting us. "We're here to conquer you. And I mean that in the nicest way possible."

I'd also ask probing questions, trying to find out how much it personally knows about science, and about us, about our history and our various atrocities. "Well, we have access to your internet. All of your internet. And your media. And you... really, you've been transmitting everything for the last fifty or sixty years."

I'd try to get a sense of its personality and individual abilities, "Trying very hard to give very bad news. I'm just a messanger. And among my people, insane."

how smart it is, "I know enough to know I do not know enough."

how adaptable it is, "We will have to see how adaptable we are to you."

how curious it is, "Ah. Yes. My insanity will come in useful here."

whether it is aggressive or calm, "Humans do calm?"

a stickler for protocol or relaxed about such things, "At this point I am trying to prevent the death of seven billion individuals. I am thankful I am insane enough to contemplate such things without further harm to myself."

and if it might get spooked by new and strange things suddenly occuring. "I have defenses."

Also, I'd try to estimate, probably as an on-going thing, why this particular individual has been chosen as ambassador. "Because I am insane. We have difficulty relating to your species because of the psychological harm you inflict on our researchers. We sent other ambassadors, but they were attacked by your major tribes and likely went into psychological shock, then death."

One can utilize one or more of several different criteria for picking a first-contact ambassador, so: What is it about this one that makes its superiors assume that it'd be a good envoy to send? "Again, I am insane. There are far far more educated, intelligent individuals in the Concordat diplomatic corp than I, but I was the only one mad enough to come."

I wouldn't ask, of course, not directly, but it'd be part of my probing questions process, trying to find that out. "ooopse."

Somber Since: Jun, 2012
#9: Oct 27th 2013 at 12:24:30 AM

FTL travel: how do you do it? "Ahhh... yes. I don't know, personally, but we're all rather afraid you might figure it out soon."

"Do you speak English?" "American, Australian, British, Chinese, or other?"

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#10: Oct 27th 2013 at 3:55:34 AM

Seeings as I am not an official trained in these matters I would probably ask it to saw "ah" and stick out its tongue. I would want to examine its digits, then ask it to disrobe (if applicable), how much depending on how comfortable I felt after its established level of cooperation because I would probably be in strong denial of its non human nature, much less extraterrestrial origin. I would be looking for some to sign to say "Its nothing but a short hairy man" or worst case scenario "This is no worse than a bear. Three men with pointy sticks can beat a bear."

In the mindset of a 'professional' I would start with its status. Is it a migrant worker, a diplomat, an asylum seeker? Is it aware of the laws that pertain to this position in this country and that it should assume them to be enforced with utmost prejudice given its non human status? Has it considered the dangers of invasive species it may be carrying and been properly decontaminated? Does it in turn realize the need the repeat the process in the event it should return from wince it came?

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Somber Since: Jun, 2012
#11: Oct 27th 2013 at 8:47:26 AM

On samples: "Why? I have told you... ah. Yes. You do not believe me. I am quite glad I am insane. Otherwise, this would be most troubling. Yes, I will allow myself to be examined to verify my claims."

In the mindset of a 'professional' I would start with its status. Is it a migrant worker, a diplomat, an asylum seeker? "I am a junior assistant to the Concordat Diplomacy Corps. I apologize for my lowly status. Normally a world such as yours would warrant an entire senior diplomatic team... but the last two we sent were killed."

Is it aware of the laws that pertain to this position in this country and that it should assume them to be enforced with utmost prejudice given its non human status? "I can only hope that you will extend to me the diplomatic courtesy you would any of your own tribal representatives. I apologize that I can not put you in contact with my superiors to verify my position. They wish to avoid psychological damage."

Has it considered the dangers of invasive species it may be carrying and been properly decontaminated? "I fully washed and groomed myself before I arrived, sir."

Does it in turn realize the need the repeat the process in the event it should return from wince it came? "We have few concerns about that, but thank you for yours."

fulltimeD Deputy Director, Space-Time Gradient LV-114 from Purgatory Since: Jan, 2010
Deputy Director, Space-Time Gradient LV-114
#12: Oct 28th 2013 at 4:22:32 AM

I am a critic of the Drake Equation and other more modern estimations of the likelihood of encountering intelligent life in the Milky Way or determining the likelihood of the evolution of what we would consider intelligence, so my two questions would be:

"What is your estimate of the ratio of life bearing planets to instances of the evolution of intelligent and sentient species in the galaxy? Is it very low or very high? And have you encountered other intelligent life beyond your own planet and Earth?"

edited 28th Oct '13 4:24:14 AM by fulltimeD

Somber Since: Jun, 2012
#13: Oct 28th 2013 at 8:31:34 AM

"Quite high in this part of the Galaxy, due to the Concordat prion. Five billion years ago a specific protein evolved in the upper atmosphere of a gas super giant. When the star exploded, it stripped away the upper layers and dispersed them across the galaxy. When this prion encountered primitive life on other worlds, it worked as a template for forming a specific pattern of development: dorsally symmetrical, bi-quad-hex-or octopedal, and most importantly, it encouraged the development of a central nervous system. Many Concordat worlds are similar to earth, with formal species occupying various environmental niches.

"Non-concordat life exist, but it is very... odd. Distributed neural networks. Planet wide organisms. Geostratic life. Fractal and radial symmetry. Non-concordat intelligence does exist, but it is almost as difficult to understand as humanity. Indeed, one of the most pressing questions facing the Concordat is if it is only a coincidence you fit concordat life patterns. But you do. The prion is clearly in your sixteenth chromosome."

edited 28th Oct '13 8:32:13 AM by Somber

fulltimeD Deputy Director, Space-Time Gradient LV-114 from Purgatory Since: Jan, 2010
Deputy Director, Space-Time Gradient LV-114
#14: Oct 28th 2013 at 12:13:49 PM

^ It's not clear to me whether you are quoting a source or something from fictional media.I'm also not sure if those two quotes are from the same source. To my knowledge there is no such thing as a Concordat Prion.

I'm still skeptical that one single protein 5 billion years ago could be any kind of predictor of the conditions of life in the galaxy after 5 billion years of random mutations due to forces of natural selection, especially on different planets. We can't necessarily use that protein's interactions with genes on Earth to say anything about its effect on life in other planets. For all we know, an alien ecology mighty be resistant to it. We don't know.

From a paleoanthropological perspective it's hard for me to believe in any kind of universal predictor of the evolution of intelligent species of our likelihood of encountering them (also two separate things). Evolution's not a predictable force of nature.

I think people take "life" and "intelligence" together as one for granted; scientists and lay people alike.

EDITED: Okay now that I tried googling the Concordat Prion I can't find anything on it, so I'm assuming you're answering from the POV of your fictional alien character. I was pretty sure proteins formed on Earth, not in the upper atmosphere of stars where more basic elements form. I didn't mean to come off sounding like an A-Hole, and I didn't mean to criticize your writing. It just wasn't clear to me where you were getting this "information." The quotes out of context indicated a real life source.

Question though: how in your setting does a protein that formed in the upper atmosphere of one specific star (this must be one hell of a protein to form in a star) get transmitted to extrasolar planets in other star systems without someone intentionally "seeding" planets with it. Panspermia?

edited 28th Oct '13 1:21:58 PM by fulltimeD

KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#15: Oct 28th 2013 at 3:08:13 PM

[up][up] Gas super-giant is something of a meaningless term. Jupiter is approaching the upper limit for volume of a gas giant (or at least one that hasn't been puffed up by orbiting close to its parent star). Beyond a certain limit they don't get bigger, they just get denser.

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#16: Oct 28th 2013 at 7:16:20 PM

I would not be so sure. There exist bodies of water floating out their that are larger than the sun. A "super giant" gas planet would not be the oddest thing found in space, you could just mention that it does not usually happen.

On learning I was dealing with a diplomat, albeit a low ranking supplement, I guess I would inquire the purpose of his mission. Is it here to collect information for the state so that they might decided how to deal with us, as it come to report something from its government?

How autonomous are Concordat corps men, personnel members sent out? Will the diplomat be in steady communication with its superiors. Will they only contact it after a set number of days, months, years? I would assume the former if they have already lost membership so maybe I would ask about standard policy so we can figure out what went wrong here. Exactly how sore is the government after it lost two of its teams here?

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Somber Since: Jun, 2012
#17: Oct 29th 2013 at 1:27:01 AM

[up][up][up] (yeah, it's kinda a RP/ Worldbuilding idea thing) "Oh no no no. Not all life. Not even most life, but it expressed itself most commonly in animal life. There is life whose development has been influenced by the Concordat prion and life that evolved independent of it's influence. It is why across the Concordat we find so many similarities. Humanity and my own species are both Concordat beings. It also encourages intelligent life, by encouraging a central nervous system. Some believe it was engineered by some ancient and disappeared ancestor. Others that it evolved naturally. But really, being Concordat isn't as vital a biological distinction as it is a legal one."

[up][up] "I apologize. Your language is somewhat... tricky, and I am not an Astronomer."

[up] "My purpose here is to accept the unconditional surrender of all your tribal nations and organizations to the authority of the Concordiat. Again, I apologize profusely for the inconvenience of this."

"I am extremely autonomous in that I am the only member of the diplomatic corps capable of this assignment. Indeed, I suspect my superiors do not believe successful contact is possible with your species. They are continuously monitoring the situation with your planet and my actions here."

"As for normal contact protocals, most intelligent concordat life recognizes the possibility for extraplanetary intelligence in their early alloy stages of development and will establish an office and procedure for contact. Some do so hundreds of millenia before contact is made, but no species has ever been so arrogant as to believe itself unique in the world. When a world achieves atomics, the concordiat begins to make preparations and contact with the world. They'll find whatever channels have been prepaired for contact and open up communications, contact the leaders, and quietly monitor development. Social particularities that promote conflict are discouraged, and most concordat intelligence makes modifications to join the Concordiat."

"Earlier diplomatic missions were horribly shocked to find no established channels for contact. Transmissions were dismissed as being 'a hoax' or 'a plot'. No one of the American tribe or the Soviet tribe believed contact was taking place. Then, when our ships descended to make contact, both were attacked by hostile murder machines. Our diplomatic ships are unarmed. It must have been horrifying."

"Such events... where a concordat species willfully and intentionally kills another sentient is virtually unheard of. It caused severe psychological trauma to millions of concordiat sentients who learned of it. Thankfully, the diplomatic corps have managed to prevent the spread of... other cultural concerns your species have. It is why it has become imperative to conquer your species as soon as possible."

edited 29th Oct '13 1:29:18 AM by Somber

stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#18: Oct 29th 2013 at 10:37:11 AM

Why would contact attempt to be initiated when only a few nations were just beginning to achieve spaceflight?

For that matter, why attempt contact during the Cold War, where the planet's two super-powers were not getting along (to understate it) and were in states of paranoia? Why not study the cultures so you know why official dismissed transmissions as Soviet/American hoaxes, and then know that they wouldn't take kindly to unknown aircraft entering into their airspace, and presumably ignoring warning transmissions from the Soviet/American militaries?

And now that I know that you're here as an act of conquest, why should I not just call in security, and then the government, and have you taken into custody?

—- Really, the idea that they'd both be aware of the fact that the Soviet Union and United States are separate entities, and know how they reacted to the transmissions, but still be ignorant enough of the culture to think that landing ships unannounced is a good idea makes the aliens look kinda dumb.

edited 29th Oct '13 10:41:23 AM by stingerbrg

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#19: Oct 29th 2013 at 11:19:41 AM

This is one to Somber directly. Does the Soviet Union still exist or are we closer to "present"? That would effect the nature of any further questioning. Regardless of time period I think an official would be obliged to lay out some points and offer some explanations before doing more questioning...but that would be going off topic.

Regardless, calling in security seems a little, extraneous. I would imagine building security is already well aware of the alien presence and diligently monitoring it even during this interrogation. I guess "So how many of you are here right now?" "Or how much time do we have to put off the active stages of conquest?" would be the knee jerk inquiries though.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Somber Since: Jun, 2012
#20: Oct 29th 2013 at 1:19:36 PM

[up][up] "Ah, yes. Well, you see, your species is developing technology at a shockingly alarming rate. A typical species may spend one or two thousand years gradually progressing through chemical, biological, and mechanical discoveries. We've never seen a species as... aggressive... as yours. You develop, exploit, advance, and procreate with a furious pace we've never seen before. Our initial contacts were made before we had a full grasp of your species. As I said, normally such contact is routine. But there has been nothing routine about humanity."

"As for why now, you've built a device called the Large Hadron Collider that will soon give you access to the next level of technological development. One that will give you the keys to FTL travel, as well as infinitely more destructive power. Most species take millenia, even tens of millenia, carefully exploring and developing this level of technology. Humanity, we are convinced, will not."

"As for studying your cultures... you don't realize how harmful your species is. You do things... believe things... value things... that are all but inconceivable to the Concordiat. You kill other sapients. You glorify it. That action is so unthinkable that for most to think it would be biologically distressing. Our researchers go into psychological shock when they attempt to understand your broadcasts. Your actions have caused social distress to hundreds of worlds. The 'Human Question' is one of the most conflicted in all of civilization. What are you? Why do you do what you do? And most importantly, what should we do about you?"

"As for taking me into custody, you certainly can if you feel I have violated the rules of conduct for your species. However, Conquest was just one option explored by the Concordiat for dealing with you. Annihilation is another, though I fear, along with many, that if we do that, the Concordiat will not survive."

"As I said before... you do not understand. What you call 'culture', we call psychosis. Your entire race is terrifying to us. We are afraid of you. Most humans worship fictional characters from antiquity, and glorify primitive edicts and reward rejection of conflicting rational evidence. That is insane. And you have whole tribes of your species doing it. That alone would simply be a disturbing, but understandable sociological quirk... if your species venerated the same fictional character. You don't."

[up] (present) That is a very good question. If you shut down the LHC, you could put off both conquest and annihilation indefinitely. However, we are not sure your species is capable of the discipline to do so. Meanwhile, the Human Question will not be resolved. If you had normal rates of development, you could have centuries to come to terms with this. But you have gone from atomic theory to quantum mechanics in a single century, twenty times faster than our most technologically oriented species. This is why we are so concerned. Would all your tribes agree to suspend such research? Then there is the ethical question... do we have a right to technologically impede another species progress? These are questions that have never been asked."

edited 29th Oct '13 1:24:23 PM by Somber

Belisaurius Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts from Big Blue Nowhere Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts
#21: Oct 29th 2013 at 2:14:03 PM

In regards to conquest, if our very media, what we think of as entertainment, is not just overwhelming but harmful to your kind then how can you're superiors even consider conquest an option? Why, the very thought of murdering billions of sophonts must be unbearable. While you may have the industrial might and most likely the technological insight, do your people have the will to fight a war?

I suppose you could adapt. Most life does. But how will your society cope with the realities of mass conflict? How would it change? Actually, the thought of a technologically advance species with the equivalent of PTSD is rather unsettling.

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#22: Oct 29th 2013 at 3:30:27 PM

The last attempt to visit had to have been at least thirty years ago, suggesting the distance between our worlds is not a trivial one. What exactly is the Concordiate's physical layout out? Obviously it has encountered planets similar to this one, incorporated a number of them possibly, but does it travel through outer space as we know it? Are the majority of its settlements what people on this planet would find familiar? How long does any given journey between them last?

Relating to the diplomat before me, experience with human culture teaches that insanity is often defined by popular opinion. Does it have a documented mental condition or does it simply think and act in ways that are unpopular?

edited 30th Oct '13 7:54:25 AM by Cider

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Somber Since: Jun, 2012
#23: Oct 30th 2013 at 1:18:42 AM

[up][up] "The conquest is quite simple. You will do as we direct and we will do all in our power to help your species straighten out its problems. That is the ultimate goal of conquest. Due to geography, you have a fractured economy, culture, and technology base. But fighting a war? Absolutely and emphatically not. The Concordiat is organized to avoid interplanetary conflict at all costs. The energies that we tap into could annihilate whole populations. Even crude conflicts with kinetic bombardment from orbit... no."

"We will not go to war with humanity. As mad as your species is, we recognize that your technological acceleration reaches truely nightmarish porportions. In addition, your species outnumbers many by two orders of magnitude. The logistics. The ethical dilemma... no. We will not do such a thing."

"We would instead destabilize your system's star, collapse it, and detonate it. It would be over in about half an hour."

[up] The Concordiat is composed of roughly one hundred individual species across several thousand worlds. All share the Concordat prion. FTL utilizes quantum forces that you are unlocking. Indeed, some of your scientists already have an understanding of the phyiscal processes. It is just a means of tapping them. This terrifies us. No species has developed as swiftly as you. From atomic theory to relativity to quantum mechanics in a century and a half? No. It took my own species ten thousand years to achieve FTL.

"Likely, most humans would consider Concordiat worlds wastes of space and resources. There are only fifty million of my species in the universe, because that is all we need. Most worlds are left in their natural habitat with their resources intact. Your species has seven billion individuals on one world. Again... insane. It would not be believable without visual confirmation... and then it would be incomprehensible.

"My mental condition is that I can contemplate such barbarity as war and murder without going into shock. I am capable of compartimentalizing this harmful knowledge and deal with it rationally. But because I am capable of such thoughts, I am insane, and thought less for it. But given sane people can not contemplate humanity safely, an insane person was selected."

aurora369 Since: Jan, 2001
#24: Nov 2nd 2013 at 7:44:55 AM

1. Very well, but I sense a slight contradiction in your words. You say it is abhorrent in your culture and psychology to kill other sentients, and this is the reason you consider our culture and psychology dangerous. But you threaten us with genocide. How exactly will this help to isolate you from us, if by doing that you shall become us? Killing people because we do not like them is a Human thing to do, and, as far as I understand, it is the Human thing that frightens you the most - but you seem eager to convert into this mindset yourselves. If you blow up our Sun and commit genocide, we will survive and live on in you. In your minds and in your psyches. But that will not be us as we exist in reality, with a rich history of enlightenment and culture, but we as we exist in your imagination: as fearsome cardboard monsters from a theme park, whose only trait is "We kill whoever we don't like". You will become something worse than human: you will become strawman human. Is this the price you are willing to pay for our elimination? And if it is, doesn't it defeat the whole purpose of that act?

2. You seem to miss a very important detail of our psychology. We have an innate sense of self-worth, which makes it inconceivable to allow someone we barely know to boss us around. That alone makes "unconditional surrender" a very improbable proposition. Conditional surrender, on the other hand... If you treat us with respect, we may or may not start respecting you, depending on how we judge your own values. But if you treat us like scum, you provoke an automatic reaction of aggression from us. We do not want this to happen, and because of that we advise you to change tone if you want a peaceful solution.

So, as you can see, you are in a situation of Catch-22. This means, you will become like us if you welcome us, and you will become like us if you fight, overpower and utterly destroy us. Anyways, you will be humanized. So why not do this in the more convenient and pleasant way?

Corollary: You fail at Hannibal Lectures. We win at them.

edited 2nd Nov '13 8:24:50 AM by aurora369

Belisaurius Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts from Big Blue Nowhere Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts
#25: Nov 2nd 2013 at 11:20:52 AM

Actual conflict would be bad for both out people. Yours wouldn't be able to stomach the fact that you considered genocide no matter how you frame it and ours would likely get wiped out. The best case scenario for humanity would be that most of the concordiat goes catatonic from the idea of mass genocide. However, that leaves the insane a majority and that would bode badly for everyone in the long term. The worst case scenario is that humanity gets wiped out and the Concordiat gets used to the idea of genocide. In that case it sets a bad precedent which some will use to rationalized as a solution to all our problems.

Furthermore, backing down isn't viable. The Concordiat is too scared to ignore us and we are too proud to simply roll over without a fight.

What we need is a bluff. A demonstration of violence without actual violence. We need you to put a new crater on the mood. Not enough to create a massive ecological disaster but enough that people can see it with their naked eyes. What you need is to prove that you could utterly destroy humanity in a heartbeat and provide proof that actual combat would be meaningless to all the world leaders.

After that, you move in with the professional hand shake crowd. The diplomats and the mediators. You smooth over ruffled feathers bruised egos and sooth paranoia over becoming a slave race. A couple generations latter we become members of the concordiat as much as any other species.


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