Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Evidently even the horror of burned babies is unable to stem the tide of whataboutism.
Foreign Troper
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Totally agree. It's just shameful.
You know, if the mutilation and killing of infants and small children means your country deserves to be wiped off the map, then there are several countries that need to be gone. Most of them being Israel's allies.
So don't go there, dude. Don't use to that justify a complete genocide.
The Element of Hyperbole.
Like, what reaction do people want exactly?
Are we supposed to look at the baby thing and go "Hamas are monsters. They need to be eradicated. kill them all right now"?
Whataboutism is bad because it's so often used as a distraction. I don't think most of the people engaging in "whataboutism" here are trying to excuse Hamas. They just don't want this to be used as a justification to rile people up so that any kind of response to the situation is seen as appropriate.
Edited by GNinja on Oct 12th 2023 at 6:45:08 PM
Kaze ni Nare!
"Whataboutism" is so overused a phrase that it's obnoxious.
Like, this is not trying to excuse Hamas. This is pointing out the difference between coverage and emotional responses.
If that's "shameful" then I'm not sure what else to say. How are we supposed to respond to the deaths of Palestinian children?
I'd like to get any sense that people actually feel even a sliver of sympathy/empathy for Israelis/Jews as human beings.
I get the sense that for many posters, the massacre is mostly bad because of the disproportionate response it provoked.
I don't know what to say to posters saying "don't bring up the dead babies because it will lead to genocide". No one in this thread is advocating for genocide of Palestinians.
Also - @G Ninja - I think it's expecting the bare minimum of people to want them to express some outrage at Hamas and sympathy for the victims before talking about how the Israeli response is bad.
As for your hypothetical, I'd kind of say... yes to eradicating Hamas. At least within the confines of the rules of war. I'm making a distinction here between Hamas and Palestine.
The key distinction between the two acts (which it should go without saying but just to make is explicit are evil) is that Israel killing children in the bombings is impersonal, Hamas doing it assuming that half of what is reported is true is a a lot more personal for lack of a better word and so gets a more visceral reaction.
Can we not strawman people like that, please?
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
The Element of Hyperbole.
Also, wouldn't Hamas be doing stuff ike this (and taking pictures of it) in order to provoke a visceral reaction?
Kaze ni Nare!
It's like the bare minimum to want people to feel bad for the Israeli victims (too). And so many people can't manage that.
Also, unless I missed something in the thread, bobwolf did not make any comments advocating genocide/wiping any countries off the map, notwithstanding No Name's posts.
Edit - @ Shaoken - Really struggling to find the phrasing for this, but I agree with what you are saying about the two things feeling differently (even though the victims are equally dead in both cases), and I also think there is at least arguably a moral distinction between civilians "inadvertently" killed during war and deliberately killing civilians, which is what Hamas did here. In fact, that's a big part of why Israel's response is bad - because they are bombing indiscriminately.
Edited by Hodor2 on Oct 12th 2023 at 12:26:54 PM
Can you quote a post in this thread instructing people not to bring up the dead babies?
Murdering kids is horrible. Israeli children do not deserve violence. Hamas sucks and any of their fighters who kill children should die painful deaths.
Edit: Removed after seeing edit to
Edited by indigoJay on Oct 12th 2023 at 3:28:49 PM
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
Thank you. I appreciate
Hmm. I'm reading G Ninja's posts again and I think I misread G Ninja's post about visceral reaction to mean "that's why you shouldn't bring it", whereas I think it's actually a reply to Shaoken. I also will acknowledge that
So, I'm probably mostly reacting to No Name's allegation about bringing it up (?) feeling outrage (?) feeling bad for Israelis (?) leading to promoting a "complete genocide".
Edited by Hodor2 on Oct 12th 2023 at 12:36:31 PM
Netanyahu is posting these images to justify all the crap he's doing and will do. That's all true enough.
But if your response to these horrifying pictures isn't "I'm gonna be sick" but instead "eh, what about that other pile of dead babies", please remember the human here.
Don't be numb to dead children because of the agendas people push.
A procrastination in of itself
There is also a political overawareness factor that some people will have. There’s something really depressing about seeing people angry about dead babies not because they on principle object to babies being murdered, but because they want it to be a different group of babies that get murdered.
Just to be clear, I don’t think anyone here has such a view, but I’m certain it’s one you can encounter if you decide to enter into discussions about this out on the uncivilised internet.
Edited by Silasw on Oct 12th 2023 at 9:20:36 AM
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Also for awhile, we kept getting disinformation and 2nd hand telephone info.
So the end result is that people were blood lusted for genocide over possible half truths.
The Element of Hyperbole.
I think it's possible for people to believe in both of those things at the same time honestly. Like, if you believe that one group of dead babies will lead to another group of dead babies, then that's even worse if you also hate dead babies on principle.
And even if the event is true you got a lot of people claiming it's misinformation.
Lost in Space
This thread is becoming uncivil and we're locking it until we've sorted out who needs to be thumped and/or suspended.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
I'm posting here to provide a policy update. It has become abundantly clear why we prohibited the Israel-Palestine conversation as a topic years ago: it seems that people are simply unable to discuss it civilly.
As soon as someone brings up "dead babies" and uses that as a sledgehammer to win an argument, any hope of a productive discussion is out the window.
TV Tropes does not owe anyone a platform to discuss whatever they want. These forums are a courtesy, and we reserve the right to prohibit topics as we see fit. There are lots of other places to get news about and discuss current events.
Edit: As a clarification, the Israel-Palestine conflict remains a prohibited topic in other threads, except as it directly applies to them, and strictly limited to that overlap. Any attempt to relitigate the conflict itself will be thumped and offenders banned if the behavior repeats.
Edited by Fighteer on Oct 31st 2023 at 5:14:52 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
THAT TOO. Also being perfectly fine with starving ~1m minors in a prolonged siege.
i. hear. a. sound.