Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Yeah, they already have their own assault rifles in the form of the TAR-21/X95 and Galil ACE. They don't need cheap AR variants.
Edited by CookingCat on May 1st 2020 at 1:42:15 AM
Bibi Jr. continues his escapade of making an ass of himself — this time, his quote about a "free, democratic, Christian Europe" made it onto an AfD poster.
Maybe if the son of the prime minister of the Jewish state is becoming a pet favorite of German far-right nationalists, something's a bit fucked.
Also, this hilarious epic fail.
Edited by somerandomdude on May 6th 2020 at 3:09:02 PM
ok boomer
I doubt he'll appreciate the irony. It's mainstream right-wing dogma nowadays to denounce Nazis as a leftist globalist group, so he'll just counter that EU are the real Nazis and AfD is analogous to anti-Nazi resistance movements or something.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Mind you, Yair is an actual, no-shit Nazi. Remember that time he shared a Happy Merchant cartoon of one of his dad's political opponents?
What's precedent ever done for us?
I follow this journalist/writer Yair Rosenberg and he likes to refer to Yair Netanyahu as the "worst Yair".
Amusing though he recently commented that there was competition in Jair Bolsonaro's failson, also named Jair, who denied the Coronavirus pandemic.
Definitely think Yair Netanyahu is still worse by a large margin though.
A procrastination in of itself
The Israeli right-wing have been softening their position on nazis over the years, Bibi himself falsely claimed that it was Palestinians, as opposed to Hitler, who came up with the Holocaust.
The fact that Bibi remains as popular as he is, even after engaging in Hitler apologia, is very disturbing.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
that on its own should be proof enough to the world that the israeli far right are idiots that need to be removed from power.
In brighter news, there was a protest in Tel Aviv today against the occupation, with protesters carrying banners saying "There is no democracy with apartheid" (or "Ein demokratia im apartheid" in Hebrew).
ok boomer
Which is something Israel doesn't actually do for the majority of it's arsenal.
It’s easier to understand aid to Israel as a subsidy for US defense contractors rather than a bribe. The vast majority of weapons systems Israel uses are built and developed in conjunction with US businesses, their defense industry is largely symbiotic with ours. Basically every major item Israeli forces purchase, such as Iron Dome, is produced with or by a US business.
M16s and M4s are both mainline service rifles in the Israeli military, they field almost as many of them as they do Tavors. Very few Galils are still in use.
As far as I’m aware they purchase the same models the US military does, mostly from manufacturers like Colt and FN.
Edited by archonspeaks on May 9th 2020 at 7:27:21 AM
They should have sent a poet.
The pandemic is bringing Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs together.
I like this article for the most part, and I appreciate its optimism. I don't share all of it, but it's a nice change.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
Thoughts on this opinion piece by Gideon Levy, arguing that "annexation is the least worst option"?
In case of paywall:
Annexation is indeed an intolerable prize for the occupier and an outrageous punishment for the occupied. It legitimizes the most serious crimes and severs the most just of dreams – but the alternative is even worse. It would eternalize the criminal situation – this situation has long been perpetuated; it would establish a reality of apartheid – a reality that has existed for quite some time.
But annexation would also put an end to the lies, and require everyone to look the truth straight in the eye. And the truth is that the occupation is here to stay, there were never any intentions to do otherwise; it has already created an irreversible situation, some 700,000 settlers, including those in East Jerusalem, who will never be removed, and without their removal the Palestinians will be left with nothing but Bantustans, neither a state nor even a joke of a state.
This is what the opponents of annexation fear: Without a declarative and legal process it will be possible to continue to sow delusions forever. Annexation would threaten the fallacious life of the Palestinian Authority, which continues to behave as though it were a free state with sovereignty just around the corner; of the Israeli peace camp, which continues to believe there’s still a possibility for a two-state solution; and the European Union, which thinks it’s enough to issue (strong!) condemnations against Israel, and then to sit and do nothing against the apartheid, to fund and arm it, and present its “common values,” with Israel. Annexation would challenge the deniers of reality who have never been challenged in their lives. Therefore you must be in favor of it despite the injustice and disasters it is liable to create; in the long run, the price will be less than that of the existing situation.
It’s precisely the sworn opponent of annexation, Shaul Arieli, who has best described its advantages. In a recent article (Haaretz, Hebrew edition, April 24), he noted how the Palestinian Authority would collapse, the Oslo Accords would be cancelled, Israel’s image would sustain damage and another cycle of bloodshed is liable to erupt. These are real dangers that you cannot take lightly but he says: “The step of annexation would deal a great blow to the balancing points in the current situation and upset their fragile equilibrium.” And what more could we ask for, Shaul Arieli? The stability that the occupation has created, its routine normality, are the great enemies of any hope to end it. You don’t have to be an anarchist or a Marxist to see the latent opportunity in this terrible vision. Annexation is after all more reversible than the settlements: The policy of annexation can some day be changed into democracy.
We’ve been waiting for this blow to land. It’s our last hope. Whoever knows Israel knows there’s no chance it will awaken one morning of its own free will and say: Occupation isn’t nice, let’s end it. Whoever knows the Palestinians knows that they have never been so weak and isolated and fragmented and bereft of any fighting spirit. And whoever knows the world knows how tired it is of the conflict. So now Israel will come along and, with the encouragement of the well-known peacemaker in Washington, awaken this reality from its sleep: Annexation. Anschluss. In the hills and in the valleys, in Area C and in the end in the entire West Bank.
With nobody intending to grant equal rights to the Palestinians, Israel will declare itself an apartheid state. Two people, one with full rights and the other with none – from the podium of the Knesset and the UN as well. Is it too naïve or optimistic to believe that most of the world would not remain silent nor would a great number of Israelis? Is there any realistic alternative? So, stop being afraid and let them annex.
I've voiced my support before on a one state solution (though really more of a confederation is what I have in mind), mostly on practical grounds. However, I immediately view with skepticism any insistence that Palestinians should "play the long game" while their water is being poisoned and their homes are being destroyed.
Edited by somerandomdude on May 14th 2020 at 9:23:20 PM
ok boomer
That argument is entirely correct, annexation will be a terrible thing but in many ways, it will also be an opportunity.
That doesn't make it a good thing, and I don't think I would go as far as to say anyone should welcome it. But their point is a strong one.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
I would only support it if I believed the world would insist on granting equal rights and economic reparations to new Palestinian-Israeli citizens, but I am not optimistic about that happening.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
A procrastination in of itself
Assuming they got citizenship, I wouldn’t expect the kind of government liable to anex to be likely to grant citizenship. You’d more likely see expulsion, forced relocations into Gaza, paper only citizenship of a fictional entity (see Apartheid’s example), mass imprisonment or in the worst case mass killings.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Oh, bother.
Looking for a silver lining in annexation and using it as an argument in its favor is highly dubious. Especially since the more likely outcome is a lot of Palestinians’ lives getting even worse.
Edited by M84 on May 15th 2020 at 8:38:38 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
I think the crux of his argument is that annexation will effectively change nothing on the ground and will tear away the facade of the "occupation," when in reality the territory has been annexed since at least the decade before the First Intifada. This will strip away Israel's international support and eventually lead to some kind of one-state/federal/confederal solution.
Edited by somerandomdude on May 16th 2020 at 9:58:38 PM
ok boomer
That was my impression too.
I'd say it's a compelling argument, it's not like the Palestinian people aren't already defacto under Israeli domination already. The only significant difference will be that the world won't be able to pretend otherwise.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 16th 2020 at 9:32:15 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Netanyahu is officially going to trial. He'll be the first Israeli PM to stand trial while in office.
ok boomer
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Got a link for that one so I can share it around?
Oh really when?
Here's the Haaretz article. He's facing multiple counts of fraud, bribery, and breach of trust.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Yeah, didn't need a telescope to see that coming. -_-
Apartheid here we come.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
So America is sending Israel cash money as a bribe to buy American weapons.
Which is something Israel doesn't actually do for the majority of it's arsenal.
Oh really when?