Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
As long as bibi is crippled, I’m happy.
Never Trust
Joint List has announced it's support for Gantz. Whether Gantz will accept that support is another question.
Trump delenda est
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, but without Balad. Netanyahu has 55 endorsements to Gantz's 54. Blue and White will downplay it because they know that the first party given a shot to form government will fail. Not to mention that the coalition would necessitate compromises that Gantz might not be willing to make (given that even he isn't the hugest fan of Palestinians).
Servant of the Omnissiah
President Rivlin has asked Bibi to form the government.
Well, so much for hoping Gantz could do it. Unless Blue and White can muster enough support for it, or concede to Likud and let Bibi remain PM.
Not good for Blue and White - or the Joint List.
Edited by TechPriest90 on Sep 25th 2019 at 5:31:51 AM
I hold the secrets of the machine.
Oh for fuck’s sake. I thought we were free of him.
It's kind of remarkable how absolutely shitty Israeli politics are, I wonder if this was how anti-racists felt looking at Apartheid South Africa?
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Why does he expect Netanyahu to do any better this time? He failed to form a government a few months ago, and he had more seats in parliament than he does now. This is just asking for the election to be re-run again.
It's not like Gantz can do better. Gantz has ruled out coalitions with both Bibi and the Joint List.
I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Yeah, but at least Gantz legitimately controls the biggest share of seats in parliament, and he's not being scheduled for a likely indictment in about a week.
Welp, Bibi gave up. Let's see what Gantz can do.
Never Trust
Whatever he does it's very unlikely it will be worse than Netanyahu
Trump delenda est
But can he form a government?
Tune in next month on "When will this Israeli nightmare finally be over?"!
ok boomer
Having No government is better than having Bibi’s government.
Edited by fruitpork on Oct 22nd 2019 at 9:34:06 AM
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
So what will happen to Netanyahu now?
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
If Gantz manages to form a government, Bibi is figgity-foggity-fucked. Getting rid of him and holding him accountable for his numerous corruption scandals was B&W's #1 priority this election cycle.
ok boomer
Isn't there some chance that he'll get indicted while government negotiations are ongoing, and that this might entice some Likud M Ps to ditch the prospect of his continued premiership and just support a Gantz government (possibly with some kind of backroom deal involving Bibi's pardon)?
I think it's unlikely he'll actually be indicted during negotiations, but I do think it's possible that some Likud members could be enticed to support a Gantz government with something shady going on. At this point, they likely know that they won't win a subsequent election anyways.
The other possibility is that Likud chucks Bibi and puts someone else (probably Gideon Sa'ar) in the driver's seat. Blue and White is not as "centrist" as many people portray it (annexing the Jordan Valley, for instance, was Gantz' idea, not Bibi's) and a B&W-Likud coalition is far from out of the question should Bibi get sidelined.
That may backfire though. Bibi is super popular with Israeli conservatives, and even many moderates (for the Israeli definition of "moderate" - the whole country is skewed pretty far right, even moreso than the US). Most people focus on his race baiting and horrible anti-Palestinian policies, and they're right to, but Israeli politics does not begin nor end with the conflict, and Bibi's done a huge amount of work in strengthening Israel's economy and increasing its prestige in the Global South. This has given him a loyal fanbase that makes up a huge part of Likud's base in turn, and getting rid of Bibi may end up being political suicide for the party.
Then again, Bibi's steamrolling Israel on a path to national suicide (as Paul Krugman put it), so they might have to take the bitter pill and get rid of him anyway. Good luck convincing hardline Likudniks of it though.
ok boomer
That's why they probably won't. Unfortunately for them, that's political suicide too.
For the record, I vehemently dislike Gantz as well, and Palestinians really don't care much about who's leading Israel, because all of the options are people and parties who will hurt them.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
I'm no fan of Gantz either, but playing false equivalence here is unhelpful. Gantz is bad, but Netanyahu is 10x worse, and Gantz appears to be at least warming up to playing ball with the Joint List. That alone puts him head and shoulders above the right-wing extremism that permeates Likud, so even if Gantz isn't great (he's emphatically not) he's a much better alternative to Netanyahu.
ok boomer
That's very true with respect to his internal policy promises, and I make no equivalence between Gantz and Netanyahu in terms of the effect they would have on Israel. From the Palestinian perspective, though, it makes sense that people would be incredibly skeptical of a military man being in charge.
Never Trust
So who would be a good choice to lead Israel? Are there any good choices who are also realistic possibilities?
Edited by tricksterson on Oct 27th 2019 at 11:03:31 AM
Trump delenda est
It's down to either Gantz or Netanyahu now. Netanyahu gave up trying to form a coalition, which means it's on Gantz. If he can do it, he's likely going to need to use Joint List.
I think this means Gantz is, somewhat indirectly, the better choice. A coalition with Joint List means an Arab voice in the government for the first time in Israeli history, and since familial and cultural ties between Arab Israelis and Palestinians are strong (many families exist on both sides of the Green Line), that means Palestinians could have some voice, however indirect or muffled, in the Israeli government, which is a massive shift from the past.
ok boomer
Gantz would be somewhat better but not by much.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/09/28/backing-benny-gantz-wont-help-palestinians-ayman-odeh-joint-list-arab-parties-israel-election/
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2019/9/23/palestinian-balad-party-refuses-to-endorse-equally-racist-gantz
Even in the 90s the Left wing israelis often negotiated in bad faith, BARELY making better concessions than Bibi.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2002/04/was-arafat-the-problem.html
Frankly the only way to ever improve the situation is to cut off ALL aid to Israel, put sanctions and then say "pull out of the settlements, relinquish control of the west bank and gaza COMPLETELY. That means you have no say in their borders, water supply borders roads anything. Until then you don't get a damn penny."
And before anyone says anything yes there is an anti semitism problem in the Palestinian community. But saying that it's a reason Israel shouldn't be forced to loosen things is no different than saying that since a lot of black south africans hated white people then they shouldn't have been given control or equality. It's the same racist logic, assuming all palestinians are subhuman orcs who are going to just slaughter the jews en masse and therefore Israel better keep the boot down on their neck. It's not an easy situation too resolve but the current solution is untenable and more likely to create the very blood bath that people fear.
Otherwise Gantz and anyone else will be BARELY better than Bibi. He's just a symptom of the rot in Israeli society.
Edit: and no by Rot I’m not saying Jews as a whole. I’m saying that fundementally the idea of Israeli statehood is in having dominance over ALL the lands considered part of Israel, including Gaza and the West Bank. It’s why Israeli withdrawals have been shameful half measures where Israel inevitably controls the water supply borders and roads regardless.
At this point the two state solution is dead. At this point the only option that will work is to ditch the nonsense of a Jewish state and have it be a state where both peoples have equal say. In the long run it’s the only solution that MAY not result in one side committing genocide against the other
Edited by LordYAM on Nov 7th 2019 at 1:05:18 AM
I think Rivlin will name Gantz PM-designate before allowing Election Three: Electric Beegalee, but the Knesset may be in gridlock for quite a while.
ok boomer