Filum Romanum - A Thread for the Catholic Church

True, though a word of condemnation from Rome coupled with this would be nice too.

So the solution is hate crimes...against Native Americans. The part you seem to be ignoring.

The abuses of these schools are well known and the fact that the children were buried in unmarked graves like so many other institutions is beyond the pale. They need to be subject of a full analysis to determine what causes them: disease, malnutrition, abuse, or other activities. It deserves to be subject to a massive effort.

Sadly, I think the answer isn't actually a mystery. Native Americans have spoken about these abuses and the conditions within these schools since they've began. Its just been quietly ignored and may yet unless someone brings it to the light. That is the best justice.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 27th 2021 at 3:38:59 AM

I’m saying that there’s a not unreasonable argument to be made that attempts to force the Catholic Church out of these communities (which are Canadian First Nation, not US Native American) is less a hate crime and more an understandable lashing out against a group who committed crimes against humanity.

That or an act of defence of the current children in said communities, who the church might decide to murder like it did the children in the graves.

If someone in your area burnt down a KKK chapter house think how you’d feel.

Sure arson is wrong, but my biggest concern with the arsons right now is the damage that the arsonist is doing to themselves by lashing out in this way.

I believe removing any religion from a community on the basis of said religion is a hate crime. Because...again...Native Americans.

Or are you arguing Catholic Natives aren't "real" ones?

There is a big difference between being a person of Catholic faith and being a person who supports the institutions of the Catholic Church.

The former is a matter of religious faith, the later is a matter of supporting an organisation that acted as an accessory to ethnic cleansing.

Also, you’re really going to talk about gatekeeping while seemingly deliberately refusing to use the term First Nations (I had initially assumed you were just not using it by accident)?

Edited by Silasw on Jun 27th 2021 at 11:59:06 AM

I dunno, I'm mostly drawing from my experiences with the Catholic Native Americans I've worked with at my church and the hate being directed at them.

Is there a problem with this term? They are the Natives of America and it is recognizing it is their land innately.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 27th 2021 at 4:07:18 AM

Well yeah...

For just a few.

• The Duplessis orphans where kids where forcefully sent to horrible mental institutions to profit off it. And they then outright denied and tried to skirt responsibility.

• Magdalene laundries in Ireland where unwed mothers where systimatically abused. This is also something they've repeatedly tried to buck responsiblity for.

This isn't stuff that happened hundreds of year's ago. Like with the residential homes, many of these only closed down a few decades ago. It's why their not going to apologise here either.

Edited by miraculous on Jun 27th 2021 at 4:07:48 AM

I think I stated that and actively encourage criminal charges and investigation. You know, versus burning Native churches.

Hate crimes.

I also am disgusted that people act like this is new when the governments and society at large looked the other way. Why I mentioned you only have to ask the Natives themselves what horrors they endured. They're alive and can bear witness to the events.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 27th 2021 at 4:09:05 AM

Look, I'm not exactly thrilled at the fact that a church was burned in retaliation, but do remember that the Catholic Church in general has been in a negative PR spiral as crimes keep getting discovered so, as a Catholic, I can't really blame people for their outrage when the Church failed those kids so horrendously.

Yes, I left the Catholic Church over it. I felt the organization's leadership were not interested in redressing past wrongs.

But yes, I suppose I'm being too easy. There's no way to easily deal with something so nightmarish as this. Right or wrong, it a consequence of unimaginable evil.

My apologies.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 27th 2021 at 4:12:37 AM

Some background may be helpful here.

Over a period of roughly 100 years, about 150,000 children of native origin were taken from their families and housed in residential schools in Canada. Over that period of time, several thousand children died, and were buried in unmarked graves. I've seen no indication that these children were murdered, although given the conditions prevalent in those schools it is likely that some number of them died of abuse or neglect. It seems that few records remain of who these children were, and it may not be possible to determine their identities. This was a tragic and horrifying institutional crime which was only ended in 1997. The Canadian gov has apologized for this policy, but the Catholic Church has not.

Several churches have been burned down since the mass graves were discovered-I have seen no indication that these particular churches were in any way connected to the treatment of the children, instead they appear to have been serving primarily indigenous congregations.

Edited by DeMarquis on Jun 27th 2021 at 7:14:52 AM

The sheer lack of care to their memorial is consistent in multiple Catholic institutions and part of the horror.

Similar mass graves were found in ireland.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 27th 2021 at 4:25:55 AM

I didnt know anything about these schools at all until I did a little research. Knowing how large scale, and how long it lasted, certainly puts a different spin on things.

There are important legal distinctions between murder and negligent homicide bought about by racism and genocidal intent.

I don’t feel that the distinction is particularly relevant when discussing the immorality of the crime committed.

The Catholic Church in the US wasn’t helping carry out ethnic cleansing against Native Americans up until the ‘90s, so you’re drawing from expeirances in a very different environment.

Edited by Silasw on Jun 27th 2021 at 12:30:47 PM

Wot I understand:

• These churches are located in Indigenous communities.

• The people who committed the arsons were likely Indigenous.

• Most of the parishioners who attend these churches are also Indigenous.

• Indigenous people aren't a monolith and express their anger at institutional abuses in different ways — and while I don't think that the arsons were productive or even remotely okay, especially given how they affect other members of these Indigenous communities, I also think that they're a fairly understandable response, given how long it took for the non-Indigenous populace to acknowledge the scale of these abuses.

This is that sadly familiar situation in which while anger is understandable on one level, and some solution to unacceptable institutional behavior needs to be found, yet at the individual level people committing criminal acts must still be punished due to the way they victimized other innocent people.

Edited by DeMarquis on Jun 28th 2021 at 11:08:30 AM

I don’t think they do need to be punished; I can’t see any good that would do. This is pretty much the strongest example I can think of a situation that needs reconciliation rather than a retributive penal system. (We need much more of that in general for Indigenous people - who are vastly overrepresented in our prison system, in part because of the psychological trauma caused by the residential schools. The Supreme Court itself has said that, and yet it still hasn’t been implemented in any sort of wide-ranging fashion by courts.)

Edited by Galadriel on Jun 28th 2021 at 9:29:15 AM

I dunno, presume you are a Catholic Native American and you have had the place where you worship and that is over a hundred years old. It is a place of priceless historical and faithful value and cannot be replaced. It is then burned down by people who do not consider you or your faith valid. By people who despise you because of what you believe and who you are.

And these people are given no punishment because the law decides you are not a real victim.

It is a conundrum of who could be considered the greater victim here.

As I said before, I'm not thrilled at the idea of losing a historical landmark to the outrage of some people, but at the same time the Catholic Church in general has a lot to atone for -including this last tragedy- that I think the most appropiate thing at an institutional level is to turn the other cheek, apologise and be better.

Edited by raziel365 on Jun 28th 2021 at 9:46:43 AM

I should clarify my position is that I am thinking of this more as a crime against not the Catholic Church but the local Native Catholics. This isn't about trashing the house of the cardinal or priest who ran the schools (and it's entirely possible there's plenty still around) or other acts against the institution. This has a very distinct attack on people who are also victimized by this.

But I imagine it will be settled by Natives for Natives and that my opinion is pretty irrelevant.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 28th 2021 at 9:49:35 AM

I'm with Galadriel that this requires reconciliation due to the fact that some members of the Amerindian community could single out their Catholic counterparts as sell-outs or traitors to the community.

That implies reconciliation should be made from the hate crime perpetrators to their victims.

One would think showing that the act of burning a church for reasons of being a religious minority is an act not to be tolerated.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 28th 2021 at 9:58:36 AM

Reconciliation is, in the inherent meaning of the word, between people. Both the people victimized by the residential schools and the worshippers and the destroyed church are victims here; I don’t think inflicting more harm on either side is going to help matters.

This feels like an attack aimed at the institution, not at Indigenous Christians, though it does harm them.

And Christianity is a majority (or at least plurality) religion in Canada, not a minority one.

Edited by Galadriel on Jun 28th 2021 at 10:14:12 AM

Only if you also propose reconciliation for all acts of arson and equivalent crimes regardless of who does them or who the victim is, otherwise it smacks of a double-lane justice system.

Reconciliation should involve all parties, but part of it is acknowledging that the severity of different acts are different.

One very valid point I saw mentioned online is that the fires aren’t actually just an attack on the churches, Canada is experiencing a heat wave right now and setting fires (especially uncontrolled ones) puts the lives/well-being of people across the region in danger.

It rather says something about how far the Church has gotten from Jesus’ teachings about sacrifice for the sins of others that nobody senior within the Canadian Catholic Church has been willing to offer themselves up to pay for the sins of their organisation.