Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Yeah, that doesn't really give him a free pass for the things he did do, though. Or virtually did. You seem to be having a separate argument from what other people are saying. Is Fitz better than Ward? You could make the case that they are. I mean, his reasons while still despicable, are less hypocritical. Of course, you could also make the argument that he's done far worse things, even if they were only in a virtual world — the point is not that the real Fitz bears any real guilt, just that he feels like he does, he has the memory of having done them, and he feels like he knows something of what it's like to be Grant Ward, and that's knowledge he never wanted.

And I think he did it for Ophelia in part, but not completely. He also did it for his father, and on some level the Doctor did it because he believed in HYDRA. That's the world AIDA created — a world where she could be his work and his love and his everything, because that's basically what Jemma is in the real world.

You are arguing against nobody there. I don't give Fitz a free pass for anything. I just made an observation about the evil incarnation of him.

You literally just said "None of this is something Fitz did for himself, it was all for Aida. The toxicity of their love came from Aida, not from him."

Yeah that dosent make sense, Aiden create a enviroment that let Fitz to suport Hydra, not much diferent of what Garret did to Ward, except some things: While Garret broke Ward and create a ever feeling of dependecy, to said is all about Aide remove Fitz agency in what he did.

I would argue that we don't quite know how much autonomy or agency Fitz had over his situation in the Framework, so I don't know how much was his own action and how much was just what he was programmed into in the Framework.

I'm not trying to excuse what he did or say what he did wasn't evil, but that I don't know how much control he actually had in there. Especially since he was also programmed with a wierd relationship with AIDA too that was CERTAINLY not something he had control over.

You are taking this line completely out of context. It's specifically referring to his behaviour regarding romantic relationships, not to his actions overall.

Frankly, I don't get what you are even arguing about. What is so contentious about: Oh look, even evil Fitz still has this specific character trait?

You keep arguing about something which wasn't even a point in the first place. We all agree that evil Fitz is tragically inexcusable evil. (well, or he would be if this world were real and not something programmed by Aida in the first place).

But even evil Fitz is still loving with all his heart when it comes to the people close to him.

Edited by Swanpride on Dec 23rd 2018 at 7:54:14 AM

...What are you talking about? That's what you've been doing for the last page and a half. You keep bringing it up and saying no to what unknowing and Forenpenser have been saying, even though nobody is even talking about whether or not Framework Fitz is capable of love. Like, nobody is saying he's not, but you keep saying you disagree. If it's not what I'm saying, then what is it you actually disagree with?

Edited by Unsung on Dec 23rd 2018 at 10:34:39 AM

I disagree that Ward's kind of love is similar to Fitz kind of love. even evil Fitz's love. I didn't claim that evil Fitz isn't evil. So I don't get why you keep arguing that he is. Nobody said that he isn't.

Because when you start off by saying "I disagree" or "Not really", it comes across as you disagreeing with the whole post, but unknowing's posts went on for a fair ways and they weren't really only or even mainly about the quality of Fitz and Ophelia's relationship compared to Ward and Kara. Just Fitz and Ward being similar in various other ways.

Anyway, I don't think we've been talking about the same thing, so at least that's cleared up. Thank you for that.

Edited by Unsung on Dec 23rd 2018 at 11:26:03 AM

On the topic of Framework characters, I really liked Frameward. I was really sad that they didn't corporealize him the way they did with AIDA's new body.

Ward had long since grown old for me and it's honestly my opinion that having him survive being shot by Skydaisies way back in season two was a mistake. His character in the second half of season two and first half of season three dragged on. Like, nothing really shows how empty the Idea Well became for Ward like resorting to that old and tired trope, stuffing Coulson's girlfriend in a fridge. That was the moment that the writers threw up their hands and went, "I DON'T F*CKING KNOW ANYMORE, okay?" with regards to justifying his continued presence in the plot.

But Hive was cool and Frameward was a fresh new angle on the character. I would 100% have been onboard with this version of Ward being a continued presence with the protagonists, wrestling both with the revelation of being an AI and what that entails while also struggling with trying to make a better life from the pieces that the irredeemably horrible actual person Ward left behind.

The complex experience of knowing that you're a "fake" person, but also being a much better person than the real person ever was or could have been. Trying to live the life he could have had if he wasn't such a garbage fire of a human being, but being forced to live it with the stigma of being him. That would have been a fascinating angle to explore.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 24th 2018 at 9:31:47 AM

"so I don't know how much was his own action and how much was just what he was programmed into in the Framework. "

We see leopold outside framwork(well, in fitz head) os is not as cut here: it seen Aida create the envrioment so Fitz would be more HYDRA happy, and his relationship with Aida is kind of comparable of what Garret did to Ward: break him and reshaping.

"But even evil Fitz is still loving with all his heart when it comes to the people close to him.

"

I....disagree, Fitz love for Aida and what he did for her is fuck up to all levels and is too close to Ward, expecially since just like Ward, Fitz end rejecting Jemma a couple of time and rejecting the idea of not being HYDRA, it feel you are making a useless distintion between how Ward and Leopold(evil fitz) feel.

I will said my problem with Ward is that he is not a chararter that can carry on things on is own, you need other chararter with him, a evil team, a boss, SOMETHING that make him work because otherwise he is....just there.

Compared with Leopold who can work well even if alone because is level of being terrying work on a more personal basis.

Or to put it easly: Ward is more a team player than Leopold.

I had no faith in this show actually working, as I could only see the show dancing around the fact that SHIELD is an underground, but far-reaching spy organization with plots that are happening behind the scenes of the MCU. ^note I mean, debate that as you will, but that seemed to be the initial intention, and with Season 5 referencing Thanos I don't think we can solidly state that the events of the MCU didn't happen, but were easily ignored for the sake of the show's own narrative. A show happening behind the scenes of a show that was happening behind the scenes of a film series would've been problematic.

But the fact that they filmed the pilot and gave it an honest, college try tickles me.

Adrianne Palicki talks the unaired pilot of Marvel's Most Wanted.

Edited by Soble on Jan 3rd 2019 at 1:50:47 AM

I wonder if the pilot would work as stand alone mini-movie and, if it does, if Disney will ever release it on their streaming service…..

So yeah, favourite villains — I liked Cal, not because the biggest threat or got the most epic sendoff, but because he was the source and centre of a lot of interesting plots. Rather than his big reveals being all about him, he was part of this lived-in, expanding web of intrigue. And those are the characters I tend to find most interesting, the ones where it feels like the show's still about espionage in this world of secret superscience. I liked Radcliffe a lot, too, for similar reasons. The fact that I really both of their actors certainly helps as well.

Going what with unknowing was saying back on the main MCU thread, I don't think the Big Bad approach actually works all that well given the premise of the show — lots of smaller villains is better suited to an investigative approach that gives all the characters in the fairly large ensemble their own chance to shine.

I suppose that the thing about Season 3 — that's when it really started to switch into more of a superhero show than a spy show. I'm not saying superheroes are bad, obviously, but I miss the greater focus on those spy fiction elements.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 9th 2019 at 6:47:31 AM

Some casting spoilers for Season 6.

Both Agent Piper and Enoch are confirmed to return. The big news, however, is Anthony Michael Hall. Maybe the next villain? That would be cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trDSntuNMSU

The Agents of Shield Trailer is released!

Warning: Don't watch it if you really, really don't want to know too much.

Seriously? That trailer did tell me nothing at all And I guess that was the point. Just spark some interest.

It's a bunch of teases, really. And a few things the end of season 5 basically spelled out.

Well, there is one thing in it I hoped wouldn't happen and still hope is a red herring….

Yeah.

I mean, there's a chance they're messing with us, but I hope they don't do it.

And if they do, well, I hope they do it well.

So it looks like we're gonna see another adventure in space, deep space. The CGI looks pretty good and maybe thats one of the the benefits of only doing 10/13 episodes instead of 22. Man I really missed this show, summer can't come soon enough.

I guess they are taking away the show from Earth deliberately, in order to be able to tell an independent storyline without having to reference the Post-Infinity War stuff. Smart choice.

Did that guy have.... blades coming out of his body? That's going to be some nightmare fuel when watched.

Bah. There are worse things to have coming out of your body I'd say.

Like stakes