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Clarste One Winged Egret Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
Oct 21st 2013 at 11:29:20 AM

Keep in mind that we're talking about having fun. Having more cards is fun, even if you don't technically need them to win. Saying "the best decks ahve very few non-basics" actually makes the game less fun because there's nothing to look forward to. And quite frankly it's a bizarre line of thought because, for example, the basic shaman deck contains no direct damage spells other than Frost Shock. Why exactly do they have Wrath of Air totem as one of their class abilities...?

As for why I chose Ysera and Mekkatorque, it has nothing whatsoever to do with how strong they are or are not. Mekkatorque is because it comes as a bonus for spending any money in the shop. Essentially it's a direct symbol of pay-to-win and feels a bit insulting in that sense. Ysera was just this random card that my brother was complaining about. Mostly because he encountered it twice from two different people in short succession.

Now, he's new to the game compared to me since I watched a lot of people streaming it before I got the beta key, but he routinely says, and I quote, "I feel like I'm losing to the cards and not the player". If that's what a new player is thinking, what does it even matter what the actual truth of the "best deck" is? That's just a bad first impression for a game where it's so hard to get cards.

disruptorfe404 from New Zealand
Oct 21st 2013 at 12:55:26 PM

40 gold for the daily quest, 10 gold for every three Play mode wins. 100 gold for each of the one-off quests. Free entry into your first Arena, 20 to 50 gold and a pack for losing three games straight in Arena.

Yeah, I'm not seeing how gold is that hard to earn, sorry. As it is, that's about half an hour a day (except for the first day when you're smashing heroes to get Arena entry). Hell, when it goes live I fully expect to only play Arena and build my collection from there.

Clarste One Winged Egret Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
Oct 21st 2013 at 1:03:40 PM

20 to 50 gold and a pack for losing three games straight in Arena.

Maybe the random factor is an issue because I've gotten exactly 0 gold every single time I've gotten less than 6 wins. Just all dust. And a gold useless card (which, to be fair, turned into more dust). In terms of the pack, personally I just think of entering the Arena as buying a pack plus a 50 gold entry fee.

Hell, when it goes live I fully expect to only play Arena and build my collection from there.

I have already explained in great detail how it is literally impossible for more than 1/3 of players to win enough in the Arena to pay back their entry fees. Maybe you're good enough, but most people aren't. And given that people who win more are also more likely to be participating more (because they have the gold to), over time the competition naturally gets fiercer and fiercer. Just because you're fine with it doesn't mean it's a good design choice.

You could of course always play fast decks in constructed, which would allow you to finish more games. In fact, most gold grinding guides recommend precisely that.

So the fact that the gold system strongly encourages every single player to use the same style of deck to the exclusion of variety or, you know, experimentation and fun isn't an objectively horrible design choice? Could have fooled me.

As for dailies... it's certainly true that those are probably the most influential piece of the gold metagame, but one pack every other day doesn't strike me as a good rate. Maybe that's just me.

edited 21st Oct '13 1:19:10 PM by Clarste

Oct 21st 2013 at 1:47:41 PM

[up][up][up]My mistake, I thought we were talking about earning gold. In contrast to gold, "fun" is not a thing you can quantify. It's also extremely subjective. Why would an arena player want more cards? Why would somebody who plays flavour decks (murlocs, pirates) need a lot of gold?

I hope I didn't confuse "basic cards" with "the basic deck" earlier. If I did, sorry. Some non-custom decks are comparatively weak, no doubt about that. What I meant to say is that a well-built deck made up of basic cards is potentially strong, not that all the non-custom decks are great. Shaman without his lightning spells is probably on the weak side. You could go for a Bloodlust/Windfury-themed deck, I suppose.

The reason why I'm singling out Mekkatorque is that he's awful at representing pay to win. Yes, you get him for a purchase. But he isn't stronger than a basic card. He's nothing more than a present to people who are willing to pay for a f2p game, kind of like a vanity pet in World Of Warcraft that's mediocre at Pet Battles.

I really don't mean to insult your brother, but statements like "I feel like I'm losing to the cards and not the player" aren't particularly convincing arguments. It's probably more productive to think about your own performance first, since you won't meet the same opponent very often. Every card in the game has strengths and weaknesses and offers opportunities for counterplay. I lose to my own misplays, poor strategy and very occasionally to bad luck, but not to my opponents' wallet.

[up]The idea behind playing fast decks is that you cycle through more games. If, however, you put together a slow deck that reliably wins more than half of your matches, then that's most likely more effective than playing fast. That said, there'll always be dominant strategies if you have a definitive goal, in this case "get 3 wins as fast as possible". I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

edited 21st Oct '13 1:53:35 PM by Farnion

Clarste One Winged Egret Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
Oct 21st 2013 at 1:58:12 PM

Of course we're talking about fun. There is literally nothing else worth considering in a game. If you're not having fun there's no reason to play it (unless this becomes a professional E-sport and you get sponsors, I guess). Gold is directly related to fun. So is competition. Everything is fun or unfun.

And I've already said that I really don't care about your platitudes about skill and whatnot. Heck, I agree with you. I was beating people in ranked with my level 2 rogue deck that I was leveling. But that doesn't matter because a game is supposed to be fun. Even for people who aren't good at it. People who may not be embedded enough in the culture to know where to seek advice. Just some random guy who finds this game one day and starts to play it because it's free. That random guy who's never even played a card game is the target audience. Nothing you could possibly say to me makes a lick of difference, since the people who are suffering are the people who are not me. Frankly, I have plenty of gold. I play the Arena and I win. But that doesn't affect my assessment of the game design because game design is not about me, and never has been.

The average player wins half their games and loses the other half. They do not look things up on the internet.

The reason why I'm singling out Mekkatorque is that he's awful at representing pay to win. Yes, you get him for a purchase. But he isn't stronger than a basic card. He's nothing more than a present to people who are willing to pay for a f2p game

I thought I made this clear. He's a symbol. You don't lose because the guy has a Mekkatorque, you lose because he spent money and got a Sunwalker or a Argus Defender or some other generically useful card that's technically pretty rare.

edited 21st Oct '13 2:43:21 PM by Clarste

Clarste One Winged Egret Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
Oct 21st 2013 at 2:29:28 PM

...changing the topic, Youthful Brewmaster is the best card. Discuss.

Rotpar FUCKING COUCH BARD! from California Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
FUCKING COUCH BARD!
Oct 21st 2013 at 7:54:57 PM

I have no idea who that is.

I'm struggling to beat Gul'dan in practice. EDIT: And then, POOF, I beat him.

So, what do you think for the newer classes whenever they get around to adding them: Arthas as the death knight and Chen Stormstout for monk?

edited 21st Oct '13 8:10:59 PM by Rotpar

"But don't give up hope. Everyone is cured sooner or later. In the end we shall shoot you." - O'Brien, 1984
disruptorfe404 from New Zealand
Oct 21st 2013 at 8:45:35 PM

Well, yeah, buying more packs is more chances at good cards.

If you're getting 0 gold from Arena then yeah, that is really bad luck. Like I said, I was losing three games straight off the bat (losing connection sucks) and getting 20 gold at least.

Agreed on Youthful Brewmaster. He makes my Knife Juggler super happy.

Clarste One Winged Egret Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
Oct 21st 2013 at 9:06:04 PM

[up][up]I don't think there's really any other option for the other heroes.

The Youthful Brewmaster is a 2 mana minion with 3 attack and 2 health. The most important part though is it has "Battlecry: return a friendly minion to your hand." Which basically makes all the combos with pretty much everything. As mentioned, you can use them with a Knife Juggler ("Every time a friendly minion is summoned, deal 1 damage to a random enemy character") to deal lots of poke damage, especially if you have two at the same time.

Furthermore, you can repeat battlecries for any other units, such as Argus Defenders ("Battlecry: the two adjacent minions gain +1/+1 and Taunt"), Novice engineers for some quick card draw, Shattered Sun Priests... anything really.

Even better, returning a minion to your hand also refreshes its status completely. Important minion got silenced? No problem. Heal your bruiser to full, wasting all the opponent's effort. Got Charge? How about you charge twice in the same turn? You can do basically anything with this card.

Also a 3/2 minion for 2 is hardly bad on its own.

edited 21st Oct '13 9:07:13 PM by Clarste

disruptorfe404 from New Zealand
Oct 21st 2013 at 10:52:50 PM

Wish I had a screenshot of my game where I had two Jugglers and a Youthful Brewmaster on the board with another Brewmaster in my hand.

TotemicHero Not a bug! from the next level
Not a bug!
Oct 22nd 2013 at 5:57:55 PM

Monk is probably going to be Chen, although it could be Taran Zhu.

Death Knight is more likely to be Darion Mograine.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Clarste One Winged Egret Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
Oct 22nd 2013 at 6:13:50 PM

Arthas is way more iconic "The Death Knight" than Mograine. And they're not adverse to putting villains in these slots: see Garrosh. Iconicness also applies to Chen.

I would put Mograine as a second choice if for example they would prefer Arthas to be the Death Knight's legendary minion card, but by the same logic he himself would make a good minion for Arthas. Think Uther and Tirion.

edited 22nd Oct '13 6:18:27 PM by Clarste

TotemicHero Not a bug! from the next level
Not a bug!
Oct 22nd 2013 at 6:23:42 PM

Then again, they put Anduin as the priest, even though Velen is far more "iconic" as a priest. (Poor draenei, they get no love even here.) So that's hardly the only factor at work.

It would not surprise me if they planned to do multiple characters for each deck type at some point, with slightly different effects.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Clarste One Winged Egret Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
Oct 22nd 2013 at 6:37:07 PM

That would be cool, but I think they already shot themselves in the foot with that when they added the "second choices" as minions. As you mentioned Velen isn't the Priest. Although to be honest I hardly know who Velen is because as a Horde player I don't think I've ever met him. While Wrynn plays a pretty big part in MOP, even if I didn't know he was a Priest.

edited 22nd Oct '13 6:51:47 PM by Clarste

disruptorfe404 from New Zealand
Oct 22nd 2013 at 8:29:47 PM

I think 'notable' characters are probably fair game as both Heroes and Legendaries.

Clarste One Winged Egret Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:50:42 PM

9-2 in the Arena! Grandmaster, baby.

Er... I'm very happy.

edited 23rd Oct '13 6:50:51 PM by Clarste

disruptorfe404 from New Zealand
Oct 23rd 2013 at 8:05:44 PM

Grats!

EDIT: Speaking of grats, I wonder if there will be achievements in Hearthstone. Probably not.

edited 23rd Oct '13 8:06:11 PM by disruptorfe404

Swampertrox Mage of Life from Sea Mauville Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Mage of Life
Oct 24th 2013 at 8:37:58 AM

There already are achievements, I thought. Not too many of them, but they do exist.

Modded minecraft server. PM me for info.
Oct 24th 2013 at 12:11:01 PM

To be honest I don't think they were too worried about the heroes being an iconic example of the class *points at Valeera*

TotemicHero Not a bug! from the next level
Not a bug!
Oct 24th 2013 at 12:30:38 PM

Valeera is pretty clearly a case of them trying to avoid orc overload. Even with her instead of Garona (a half orc), they have 3.5 orcs among the characters (Rexxar is also half orc).

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Clarste One Winged Egret Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
Oct 24th 2013 at 1:03:41 PM

Well, the other half of them are basically all human, so it fits into the Orcs v Humans theme quite well other than Valeera and Malfurion.

Honestly I still have no idea who she is though.

...technically I think Illidan is the most iconic rogue, but he's half warlock so that would be weird.

edited 24th Oct '13 1:04:59 PM by Clarste

TotemicHero Not a bug! from the next level
Not a bug!
Oct 24th 2013 at 1:28:10 PM

I think the whole point of rogues is that they aren't "iconic" at all. tongue

Valeera was a character in the Warcraft comics and fought alongside with King Varian Wrynn (of the Chin). Her only appearance in World of Warcraft, if I recall, was a brief one during the WOTLK launch event, complaining about the Horde and the Alliance not getting along.

edited 24th Oct '13 1:28:51 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas
Professional Forum Ninja
Oct 24th 2013 at 1:58:55 PM

Here is her wowpeidia article.

She also apart of the Battle of the Undercity, but hasn't been seen since.

So I'll make a resolution That I'll never make another one Just enjoy this ride on my trip around the sun Until it's done
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Oct 30th 2013 at 7:04:36 AM

I got a beta invitation yesterday! I downloaded the game overnight and will try playing it when I get home from work. Should be interesting; I haven't actively played a CCG in ages, and have never played one online at all, but I understand the concepts at least. Hope it has a decent tutorial mode.

edited 30th Oct '13 8:16:11 AM by Fighteer

Please join the namespace configuration project!
Oct 30th 2013 at 7:22:54 AM

Congratulations!

The tutorial is fine for the very basic stuff, but don't hold your breath. I found some parts of it a bit tiresome, except for the last opponent you face. Maybe we'll get an advanced tutorial someday with stuff like trading, card value or deck building.

Anyway, when you're done with the introduction, I recommend getting your favourite class up to level 10 for a lot of neat basic cards. You might want to unlock heroes after that for some gold, not to mention practice. Oh, and your first arena run is free, so you can either read up and try to squeeze as much gold as possible out of it or just acquaint yourself with the mode at your own pace.


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