RWBY General Discussion

That's a good way to summarize it

Adding on

If James had updated Mantles security Watts and Tyrian would have been caught much sooner or at least wouldn't be able to freely walk around.

If the embargo wasn't a thing and James worked to clear Atlas name Salem would loose her scapegoat and less negativity would spew.

Things are really about to get Fun around here

Thunderous applause for that.

James Ironwood is an incredible character, he is absolutely amazing in Volume 7 and he is such a sympathetic man while also being incredibly wrong. He has been his absolute worst enemy all along the way, continually doing things that make his situation worse. He has so much potential to do good and such a strong desire to do good. But he is hindered by being from such a corrupt kingdom that has encouraged his worst instincts all along. He has been unable to see beyond the strict militarism of his kingdom, and seen himself as the only one capable of saving everyone.

He is a warning of trying to go it alone, something that the Gods tried to avoid by forcing Ozma to reincarnate partnered with another soul. He warns of the dangers of trying to do it all yourself, taking all the burdens and not sharing it with others.

His attempts to save everyone just keep blowing up in his face, and dragging him further down in the process. Because his greatest flaw is that he has been unwilling to change his ways, and he doesn't trust others when he asks for them to give him their trust. He has been his worst enemy and it has dragged him down so far. He's a classic Tragic Hero, a great man brought low by his own flaws. He's a modern Greek tragedy, in many ways.

Mantle's situation is a long-term issue, one that Ironwood holds at least partial responsibility for since he holds 2 council seats. His attitude towards Mantle is perfectly summarized by his argument with Nora — he's looking out his window, down at Mantle in the distance mostly hidden by a cloud of smog and he calls it "a few city blocks". Watts knew that Ironwood wouldn't bother to update Mantle's compromised network codes, suggesting this is a long-term problem that has gotten steadily worse. Watts tells us that ignoring Mantle is something that Ironwood has been doing for years, that it's a predictable behavior for him.

Edited by harostar on Aug 11th 2020 at 4:51:13 AM

Im opinion Im james fan, probably because he seen more intersting in general, rarely we see the typical "overwelming american general" often they show to be a dick, like general ross in civil war who only role was to shit on the pro reg side(I mean ross is pretty much jcques, it was in the military).

With that being said I disagree a lot with kylo because I feel Ironwood flaw is more contect to understimated Ozpin job and now he cant bear it, as we see clearly expecting ozpin to return, that and no wanting to fight salem is own for me see as way to remain in control,

"That and Poor Communication Kills, really. If Ironwood had been more open about the whole thing from the start, it might have gone better, but since he doesn't tell Mantle what's going on with Salem, when Watts shuts off the heat Mantle thinks Atlas did it on purpose and is leaving them to die, so they start rioting. "

Well, problem is...how to you said about salem, "Im only stealing your resourse to finish THIS SUPER DUPER SECRET WEAPON that will finish the super grimm queen that actually controled and we also knew about, trust me", there is not way to said that with a stright face also it would go with the propose of secrecy of the brotherhood, this is anything show the problem of Ironwood: between not telling anyone or risking trusting robyn, he decide to double down, is have being is answer to everything.

And I dont think RWBY was justify in lying to Ironwood, I get why they did but going with a "I withhold information our previous boss withhold for us(and was back) because he didnt trust us because...I dont trust you", there is not way it dosent sound manipulative or very protagonist morality were things are bad when done to the protagonist.

which is why I get volume 8 will come with RWBY relatization that maybe Ozpin have maybe a sort of a point in withholding information, which probably will also deal with yang trust issue against him, after all, the show does have to deal with that eventually, also I think volume 8 is when RWBY finally stop being pasive and actually deal with salem in their own way, at test of fire if you will.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Look no further, folks: THIS is what will make Salem appreciate life and death.

I assure you, I'm a completely trustworthy person.

Salem pleading to let her die already?

I'll say it again, because I think it's worth keeping in mind.

• Ozpin asked people to sacrifice themselves for him, while keeping numerous major secrets from them including that he didn't actually have a plan for defeating Salem. That's the issue, not just "keeping secrets is bad". But that asking people to give their lives for you, while not actually HAVING a plan, is.....well, kind of a dick move.
• Ruby and co kept some information to themselves, while not sure they could trust a powerful man that was behaving erratically and basically held their freedom/lives in his hands. They didn't tell him "Salem cannot be killed", because that's info they were still coming to grips with and already caused Qrow to have a mental breakdown. And they kept the Final Question a secret, because that's a major ace in the hole. Ironwood could have turned around and decided to use the Question himself, when it's basically a last resort.

Context, intention, and power dynamics matter.

Ruby and co are at an enormous disadvantage when dealing with Ironwood, and basically at his mercy. As the finale of the volume shows, he has the ability to do basically anything to them based on his whim. They're coming into things heavily dependent on Ironwood's good graces, when he's a man with a history of screwing people over.

Ozpin's crime comes down to being in a position of authority over everyone, and asking them to risk everything for him. He's been pretending to have a master plan, when he was winging it the entire time and it cost the lives of people they cared about — Summer, Pyrrha, ect.

Edited by harostar on Aug 11th 2020 at 6:30:33 AM

@Haro Thank You, and excellent points yourself

Another thing I tire of is how people act like Robyn was super shady and it was so Hypocritical to trust her more then James when she was clealry worse then him with how she was 'stealing'.

Lets compare the 2

One started a police state and ignored the rules set in place to keep him from abusing his power to then take vital recources a poor city needs to keep themselves from being invaded by monsters.

The other was taking back some of said recources.

Edited by Kylotrope on Aug 11th 2020 at 1:27:21 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here

Was Ironwood breaking any rules though? I keep seeing people make these claims without any proof. At no point does any character in the show make the claim that Ironwood broke any laws or rules or guidelines, only that he had been granted a lot of leeway by the council that might need to be dialed back.

This is ultimately a minor nitpick since the legality of his actions aren't the issue, but I do find it odd that people will whitewash Robyn's actions (I have legit seen people argue that she wasn't going to rob the transport in her first appearance and those two huntresses sneaking up with weapons drawn weren't doing anything illegal) whilst making the claim that Ironwood is literally stealing supplies rather than legally appropriating thrm.

Yeah, I think no one should be surprised at Blake wanting to work with Robyn. She's spent her entire life on the front lines of a civil rights movement, with her parents prominent leaders that have used various methods to fight for their people. And she did similar things as a member of the White Fang, before it started down a more violent path. If anyone would understand Robyn's stance and where things could go with Mantle if Ironwood continued his actions, it was Blake. She knows all too well what desperate people will do, when their pleas are ignored for too long.

I think it's noteworthy to remember that Robyn states the materials were intended for repairing the walls in Mantle. Ironwood simply took them for his project, because no one with any authority could or would stop him. He was using questionable methods to literally take life-saving resources from his most vulnerable citizens, knowing that the rest of the Council and the folks in Atlas wouldn't stop him.

As good as his long-term intentions were, Ironwood was engaging in blatant corruption and abuse of authority. He only got away with it because he didn't have anyone capable of challenging him through legal channels, while his actions are questionable at best and possibly even illegal depending on how the laws in the kingdom work. We've known from Volume 2 - 3 that he does all kinds of things that are shady and possibly not entirely legal.

Ninja-d. I think it's.....hard to tell, honestly. It seems like a case of "Screw you, I make the rules". Ironwood has basically unchallenged authority in the kingdom, he can essentially do whatever he wants. We can't be sure how legal it all is, since...well...Ironwood is one of the people making the laws. It sounds like at best, it's all very shady, because he's just hand-waving and giving himself whatever he wants because the people he's taking it from don't have the power to deny him.

I think in terms of Robyn, I think our view of her is influenced by how we meet her basically towards the breaking point. We know from various statements and evidence that the issues in Mantle are a long-term problem, that has been going on for decades. The Fall of Beacon escalated things to a whole new level of terrible, but we know things were terrible when Watts was still working with Ironwood years ago and Adam was a child.

When we meet Robyn, she's reaching the point of direct, aggressive action. She starts holding up transports while demanding answers, then goes full-blown vigilante when the election gets stolen. What I wonder is how long has she been at this fight, and how many things did she try before it reached the current point? Because we reach Atlas after months of embargoes, and military crackdowns on the citizens, and decades of neglect by the people in power. We don't get to the party until it's almost over, and people are at the point of starting to riot in the streets.

Edited by harostar on Aug 11th 2020 at 7:47:00 AM

I will add that they weren't ignoring the problems with the wall. Penny wad the full time protector of Mantle and RWBYJNR and the Ace Ops were encouraged to take on missions protecting Mantle and patrolling the gaps in the wall.

He did mention post election that people were now refusing to sell him supplies IIRC.

x3 They do point out that the entire reason he can get away with this stuff is because:

• A. Sleet and Camilla are scared and he intentionally keeps them in the dark so they will do what he asks.
• B. He does the same thing Robyn does in using Loophole Abuse, labeling things as "Classified" in order to dodge the red tape like he did with the SDC mine. Legally, Jacques would normally be in his right to claim Ironwood was trespassing on private property, but because Ironwood labeled it a "Classified" operation, he can pretty much do whatever he wants without even needing to talk to the council.

It's ultimately why he was entertaining the idea of Martial Law. If either Robyn or Jacques got in his way after being elected, Jacques especially, he wouldn't be able to do anything he wanted unchecked anymore. But with Martial Law, he'd effectively make himself the highest authority and have free reign to do whatever he needed to unimpeded.

Penny being full time protector isn't enough since she can't be everywhere at once, and it was that wall being down that let the Grimm invade during the heat loss and required they evacuate Mantle. The Ace Ops also aren't predominantly focused on Mantle since they're supposed to be Ironwood's attack dogs, and as such their main focus will always be on what Ironwood considers top priority, and as demonstrated, Mantle isn't that.

And we only ever see Nora and Ren patrolling the walls. The other times are either working to clear out the mines or chasing down the Grimm that already made it into the city, like the "Massive Sabyr on the loose" in the sewers.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Aug 11th 2020 at 7:49:24 AM

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

@Shaoken, the issues with Mantle didn't happen overnight. When I talk about him neglecting and ignoring it, I am talking about certain details:

• The network in Mantle was compromised, and Ironwood knew this. He didn't bother to have that fixed, something that Watts states is typical of him. A man that hasn't dealt directly with Ironwood in years knew that he would habitually not bother with securing Mantle.
• The wall around Mantle shows obvious signs of NEGLECT, not just damage. It's rusted, falling apart, and has been patched back together in a manner that doesn't do much. It is pretty obviously based on the crumbling, rusted infrastructure of places like Detroit and Flint, which has suffered long-term neglect.
• Mantle's neglect is mentioned as an issue in the WoR shorts, and we get hints of it throughout the earlier volumes.

This isn't a new issue, it's just gotten worse.

@Shaoken

Were told that they had set in numerous checks and balances to keep him from overstepping his power sense he had 2 council seats, And that James had been running 'Roughshot' around them And making decisions without any of the other councilman.

Things are really about to get Fun around here

"Context, intention, and power dynamics matter. "

Y Ou are right in that but this is the thing: Ironwood was part of those guys who was waling to risk is life(and we can said a lot of Ironwood but he did put is line in risk with watts), while also having the power to send other other to their death fighting salem, this also create a dificult tension because it means RWBY will fight ironwood without trusting them and as same as ozpin, dicing some people dont deserve that information, "for their own good"; which is why yang is so mad at ozpi(well, that and transfering her anger to her mother to him).

Im mean, they are kids, they shoudnt be burden with that but is the hand it was given and the chose, Ozpin indeed wage with the life of other people but it did with the convictiont hat they should be spared the awfull truth and in a sense, ruby did the same, what would follow...well, we have volume 8 to figure out.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

@Ozpin:

That and Ozpin was too passive. He would rather sit on his ass and half-truth people than actually do something about preventing a possible attack on Haven, then, when he gets a phone call from someone he heavily mistrusts, he just rolls with it and the event nearly gets Weiss killed and put Yang in a dangerous position had she not been able to reason with Raven or if Cinder was the winner.

And then he ends up getting one of the few remaining Huntsmen in Mistral killed because he neglected to tell people about the Relic, which caused the girls to turn on him so hard he retreated into Oscar when they possibly needed him the most and only came out when the person he could have reasoned with could no longer be reasoned with.

Yes, Ironwood is flawed and his methods are questionable at best and A Nazi by Any Other Name at worst. But at least he was trying to do something about the situation as opposed to Ozpin. Even in the beginning, he was finding ways to make it so that people don't have to fight Grimm and that robots would take their place and only turned against Ozpin when his methods led to the Breach (which might have been the Fall of Beacon).

Edited by Psyga315 on Aug 11th 2020 at 5:13:59 AM

Ozpin wasn't peach perfect either, but he wasn't actively endangering cities of people or setting up police states or straight up sacrificing the world to Salem so his cities safe.

The fact he was 'Trying' dosent earn him points when he keeps using methods destined to fail no matter how hard they do fail.

They were both well meaning but flawed....but there's varying levels of 'Flaw'.

Things are really about to get Fun around here

@unknowing, you're still missing the critical detail:

The anger towards Ozpin for lying is because they were risking their lives for him, based on his guidance and the lies he told them. They'd lost loved ones to his war, while he pretended to have a plan they were working towards. THAT is the source of the anger towards him, I think — Yang and Ruby lost their mother to Ozpin's lies. He had the power and authority over them, while misleading them into potentially deadly consequences.

Ironwood has all the power, when they meet with him and Ruby keeps information from him. He has literally just had his personal attack dogs capture them, load them up into a transport, and then let them go based solely on his whim. He controls the entire kingdom, and their fates are completely in his hands. They have next to no power in that situation, relying entirely on whether or not he can be trusted. Like with Lionheart, they are in a situation where the intentions of the headmaster could make or break everything.

These two scenarios are not equal, anymore than the difference between a president telling lies to get people to go to war and a civilian not disclosing everything while being interrogated by the police.

Edited by harostar on Aug 11th 2020 at 8:54:48 AM

Anyone else feel like we're caught in a time loop with how often this debate comes up, repeats the exact same beats, and little ever changes?

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

is passitivy at volume 1 and 2 leading to the breach said otherwise, it is passive and there is "I do nothing until a grim infestation run rampant in the city".

Also he was lucky raven decide to grow a heart for once and save yang because otherwise she would be dead by Neo, and how know, maybe weiss too.

Ozpin is not putting martial law but he did pretty much sit there until salem was on her throat.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Yes.

Edited by harostar on Aug 11th 2020 at 8:53:56 AM

I feel like some miss the point of Volume 7 with all the heroes having their hearts in the right place but each making mistakes for understandable reasons.

The conflict is pretty much "do you hear your heart or no?", Ruby chose not trust ironwood kinda based in form of gut feeling, Yang and Blake chose to tell robyn because they feel this was getting wrong, it wasnt much a logical step but a emocional one, and also was a short of shot in the dark.

Because sometimes is what you need, to actually trust what your heart said, Ironwood didnt want it and suffer while Ruby did it(even if she didnt know that she did it) and was kinda sorta rewarded.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Telling Robyn was a logical step

She was someone who Mantle trusted and was a well meaning huntress who was a beacon of hope for Mantle. And the reason she was in conflict with Ironwood was a mix of how bad things he let things look and Watts manipulations. If he reached out to her sooner they could help to improve his image Wich was super important.

Not telling James was based on logic too, as James had seemed extremely untrustworthy as the man himself admits.

That last bit is important, he knows that he looks really bad and can get why others wouldn't find him trustworthy, then forgets all about it when he finds out Ruby didn't find him trustworthy.

Things are really about to get Fun around here

Hell, "Hero" even touches on that with the final darker verses of the song.

Hearts and minds may not agree

Emotions topple strategy

Like, it's the conflict of Heart vs Brain. Ironwood feels emotion is a liability, and insists he's acting rationally when we the audience see that he's heavily controlled by his emotions (Fear) and not acting rationally.

Edited by harostar on Aug 11th 2020 at 9:18:01 AM

If James thought rationally he'd understand Rubies reasoning and why Blake and Yang did what they did as opposed to jumping into paranoid 'How can I trust them with anything now!?'

And not only that, but claims things only went wrong thanks to him 'letting his guard down' or 'Softended', when in truth things only went wrong because he didn't 'Soften' sooner. As had he listened to them and worked with Robyn before the election fiasco, or tried to care more about mantle sooner and updated there security, or didn't launch an embargo, then Watts would never have been able to cause the Mantle fiasco and set up Salems arrival.

That last point is also part of another thing, where I saw the fact mantle was a distraction as a defense for James, when it's do to Ironwood not listening to anyone that watts was able to set up that Distraction to begin with.

Things are really about to get Fun around here