RWBY General Discussion

Also, even if the bandits didn't end up killing anyone, it's cold comfort to all the people left for the Grimm to snack on. This isn't mere brigandry, we're talking a world where settlements are surrounded by walking piles of hatred attracted to negative emotions. There's plenty of those if you get raided and whooped.

Raven's "tribe" is just a natural conclusion of her philosophy of self-survival: a blob of meatshields for her to hide behind whenever convenient.

Yeah, I'd say if we have to go into DND alignments, Raven is Neutral Evil. She's a villain, but not part of the main antagonist group under Salem except briefly under coercion.


Lawful Evil would if anything fit Salem better; at least to the extent that we're able to glean from interactions with her subordinates, while ruthless she's very consistent with her rules (failing her = the cold shoulder, lying or presuming to overrule her = yelled at and potentially beaten, abandoning or betraying her = death) in accordance with her warped sense of "fairness."

Unless you happen to be Lionheart. Then Salem will kill you for retreating from a fight you would almost certainly die in.

Or unless you happen to be Adam. Then Salem won't give a crap if you act against her orders and will just let you go after you tried to kill her servants.

Edited by Tharkun140 on Mar 16th 2019 at 6:01:16 PM

Lionheart was trying to run away from her rather than waiting for Hazel or Cinder’s lead. Adam for his part wasn’t really a priority, nor could Tyrian or Hazel be spared to hunt him down.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 16th 2019 at 1:07:40 PM

Mercy Kill?

Yang calls her out on that being BS.

I suspected it before, but that pushes it further, I think the issue here is your taking all of Ravens excuses at face value and not seeing how the show Potrays them in context.

I'm back. What did I miss over the past month or so that I've been absent from this thread? In particular, any headway on what to do with the Character pages reorganization?

Edited by MarqFJA on Mar 16th 2019 at 8:55:13 PM

Eh, you haven't really missed anything important. We spent most of that time arguing how evil Raven really is and how exactly should the Brother Gods be killed. Nothing definitive regarding the character pages.

There isn't exactly enough information to confirm if it was really mercy kill or not considering we do know maidens are targeted and we do already know the previous spring maiden ended up with the bandits because she ran away.

Mercy kill implies someone currently in a situation worse than death. Literally nothing we know about the previous Spring Maiden suggests that other than Raven's say-so, and she has a notorious Survival Of The Fittest philosophy (when convenient).

We know she ran away because of the weight of being the spring maiden was too much for her. And that she would have beeen hunted by Salem so long as she had the powers.

Edited by Shaoken on Mar 16th 2019 at 7:31:37 PM

That doesn't inherently make killing her a mercy. Raven's word is all we have and it's simply too untrustworthy.

Leo's, too, now that I consider it, given he's the one who told the characters the "it was too move for her" part.

This is Veering into Speculation at this point. The show Frames Raven claiming it was a Mercy Kill right before Yang finally Gives her a massive "The Reason You Suck" Speech for Constantly making Excuses. So until we get word otherwise? Ravens claim is BS.

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 16th 2019 at 1:41:52 AM

Seriously, "they would've probably eventually killed you" is not a reasonable justification for murdering someone.

@Ninety.

This.

Yeah, it really isn't much better than murdering someone because old age would get them eventually. Which I can totally see Raven arguing each time she kills somebody.

Edited by Tharkun140 on Mar 16th 2019 at 10:48:09 AM

Again, I feel like the Arguments against Raven being a villain are intrestinlgy the same arguments she uses in Canon(She's following her tribes traditions, Killing Spring was a Mercy Kill) while ignoring the fact that in the show itself all of these are Proven and called out as Shams and Excuses she tells herself and others So that she dosent have to feel bad about herself.

Oh, and yeah Qrow offers Raven a chance to come back to Their side...Luke Makes the same offer to Darth Vader in star wars, is Vader not a villain? It is a bit of a General Peeve of mine when people say "Not pure evil"="Not a villain".

Is there any individual suggestions about the character pages that we are mostly in agreement upon, and thus we could put into action on their own? I don't remember anyone being in favor of retaining the Technology subpage, for example.

So, anyway, since Raven almost grabbed the Relic and she failed to take into account that she would be put on Salem's hit-list if she did so, but Yang willingly took the Relic in her mother's place, would that count as a subversion of the Too Dumb to Live trope for Raven? Just wanted to be sure.

Edited by gjjones on Mar 16th 2019 at 7:06:35 AM

Not really. She didn't stop because she noticed how stupid her whole plan was. She stopped because Yang showed up and pointed out how stupid Raven's plan was. There's no subversion here.

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Mar 16th 2019 at 8:05:37 AM

Ah, I see. Maybe Raven wasn't Too Dumb to Live after all.

Oh, no, she definitely was. It just happened that her daughter stopped her from going through with the action. If Yang didn't arrive, Raven would have taken that Relic and painted the biggest target in Remnant on her back.

Not to mention the artifact attracting Grimm to her location constantly. And the fact that Raven probably doesn't even know how to wake Jinn up. Yang really saved Raven from going through a whole lot of trouble for nothing there.

And even then, the Relic dosent really DO anything as far as power goes. Given it can only give Ancient info. And Raven assumed it was some sort of Weapon. Yeah yang REALLY saved Ravens ass there.

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 16th 2019 at 4:51:13 AM

Hmm, I thought Too Dumb to Live is obviously a death trope, but as Raven didn’t die in this instance (if that’s the case, she’s not obviously too dumb to live), does she nearly fall into this trope?

The trope page explicitly calls it a death trope. I've seen it used outside of that context before, but I'm not sure if those instances are really allowed or not. I'd ask for a second opinion.

To my mind, the trope applies. Raven made an incredibly stupid plan and was only allowed to survive it because of external interference. Even if she didn't die, I would say that still counts as being Too Dumb To Live. But I don't generally mess with tropes, so take my opinion with a grain of salt here.