he can only work with vegeta when they are literally fused as in all 3 of your examples
Funny but not helpful
The Vegeta subplot in the Garlic Jr arc may have worked better if he tried his hand at stealing Freeza's (business) empire now that Freeza was dead.
Explicitly have him try that hat on and be dissatisfied with it.
The following Goku through space to places Goku will turn out not to have been is just weird.
Although, anything the anime filler did with space would run into the problem of King Ice Cold. The PTO still has a Freeza-ish person in charge. And B) Freeza really isn't dead, just like the PTO soldiers keep insisting.
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Queen of Good Things, Honest
- Soldier: Seriously, Lord Frieza isn't dead. Where did you even get this intel? Were you there? Did you actually see it happen?
- Vegeta: No, but the woman on Earth told me!
- Soldier: What woman? Was she there?
- Vegeta: The voices in her head said it....
- Soldier: ...
- Vegeta: I think it was God or something?
- Soldier: ...
- Vegeta: ...What am I even doing out here?
- Soldier: It's okay, man. We all have bad months.
That moment when you turn around and suddenly realize you became a Crazy Cultist Conspiracy Theorist somewhere along the way, and never even noticed it happening.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 12th 2022 at 7:51:53 AM
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Funny but not helpful
HAH
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Queen of Good Things, Honest
In this parallel universe, King Cold has a similar conversation with Frieza about his account. Once all of the dead miraculously rose from their graves, the Wish Dragon conspired with God to rob him of immortality, and then the Super Saiyan beat him up.
Frieza and Vegeta both wind up going back to work, writing the whole ordeal off as the most epic bender of all time. Whatever truly happened on that day on Namek is a mystery that will never be solved, and no one ever speaks of Earth again. But every once in a while, Vegeta and Frieza pass each other in the halls, and they see each other.
Just for a moment, they share a thousand yard stare.
And they wonder.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 12th 2022 at 8:07:56 AM
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Is there a site or something that has easy access to all of your reviews. Cause it's kind of hard to find certain ones on the thread.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Archiving these would probably be a good idea. I just started adding them to my formerly-defunct Tumblr, The Exposition Dragon.
Gonna be a lot of work to get through, but it's for the best.
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I would make a link in your tumbler as well. So that the writeups can be found easier once you have added more.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
It's in my signature: The Exposition Dragon
.
No I mean in the Tumbler. I would add an area with links to episodes.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Oh, good idea.
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Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
Wait, when was your tumblr defunct?
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Anime Only: We open in the Heavenly Realm, the surface of which has been utterly destroyed by Garlic Jr. Gashu and Vinegar throw their arms to the sky and roar, letting the power of Planet Makyou wash over them. With their dormant power awakened, their muscles expand, turning them both into massive Hulks like Garlic's transformed state.
Funi Gashu finally reveals Funimation's name for the Mazoku Shiten'no. They're the (snerk) Spice Boys! (To be fair, I've been calling Garlic's previous minions the "Spice Rack". But the clear reference to Spice Girls contrasted against the reverence and dignity of the Four Heavenly Kings is hilarious.)
Gashu and Vinegar move in quickly. Gashu rushes straight at Gohan while Vinegar goes for Krillin, but it's a feint. They vanish before striking, reappearing behind the pair and moving in from the opposite direction. Powered by their momentum, Vinegar leans down and clotheslines Gohan while Gashu boots Krillin in the face. The impacts hurl Gohan and Krillin through multiple bits of structural rubble and send them hurtling off the temple platform.
Gashu appears, catching Gohan by the arm. Vinegar does the same for Krillin's leg. Gohan and Gashu trade blows in the air while Krillin kicks Vinegar's hand, freeing himself.
Piccolo flies out to intervene, but Garlic won't let him go so easily. Garlic appears behind him, swinging downwards with a cross chop. Piccolo vanishes gaining distance. Garlic closes distance with a punch. Piccolo flies upwards. Garlic quickly moves above him, kicking Piccolo in the side. Piccolo weathers the hit, spins around, and throws a right jab at Garlic. Garlic catches Piccolo's fist in his left hand.
Piccolo and Garlic trade blows above the ruined temple, gradually descending into the ruin.
Meanwhile, in Shinsenkai, Kami kneels with eyes closed behind Mr. Popo. Before them stands a spirit wreathed in darkness, but more perceptible than before: His robes and staff seem reminiscent of Kami's. Mr. Popo recognizes him as the Kami who preceded our Namekian Kami - A revelation that snaps Kami out of his meditation or whatever he was doing.
(I thought he might be bowing in deference but that seems less likely if he didn't even know who this guy was.)
Funimation's past Kami speaks to Popo. He reminds Popo of what happens to any Kami who passes through that door.
The past Kami's eyes sparkle with a golden light. Then he vanishes, leaving Popo and Kami alone in this mysterious realm filled with nothing but green gas and gravestones haphazardly strewn about the bumpy hillside. But not for long; A pair of giant holes open in the ground to swallow Popo and Kami up.
Popo scrambles to the side while Kami levitates with Bukujutsu. (Popo can't fly. I've never thought about that before.) Kami begs the spirit to cease his assault. He identifies himself as the man to whom the spirit bequeathed the throne of Kami.
The spirit responds by creating a new hole beneath Kami, this time with a suction effect that attempts to drag Kami down. Kami resists being pulled down and continues his plea: He recognizes that he is unworthy to set foot in this holy place. However, because of what is happening in the....
It becomes harder and harder for him to speak. Popo tackles him out of the hole, freeing him up to continue. Kami explains that a terrible calamity has befallen the Earth. They need to take Choshinsui/The Ultra Divine Water to the bottom of Tenkai. It's the only way.
The former Kami crackles with lightning. Mr. Popo leaps into the path of his bolt, shielding Kami with his body. Popo writhes from the electricity, but he weathers the blast for Kami. He assures Kami that he can take it; However, they need to think of something else. The former Kami will not permit them to pass, regardless of reason or circumstance. (What a dick. Fucking gods and their propriety.)
New plan: Run for it. Kami and Popo sprint across Shinsenkai as fast as they can, dodging lightning and space holes.
Meanwhile, on the surface of Tenkai, Vinegar bashes Krillin through the same column again and again, knocking one chunk after another out of its midsection and gradually shortening it. (That's some Looney Tunes shit right there. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
)
Gashu strikes up at Gohan with his left knee, but Gohan grabs the knee and holds himself away in a handstand. Gashu drops the knee and swings up with his right instead to hit Gohan in the gut.
Vinegar knocks Krillin up into the air and moves to follow up, but he realizes that Krillin's body has gone completely limp. His eyes are closed. His face lifeless, expressionless. Vinegar stands back and lets Krillin land back on the platform. Krillin comes down on his stomach and lies there unmoving.
(You know, when they were literally at Karin's sanctuary a couple episodes ago, it might have been a good idea to grab a couple Senzu. They were there. Physically in the building.)
Vinegar steps on Krillin's butt, trying to rouse him. He isn't ready to be done. When Krillin doesn't react, Vinegar kicks him off the platform. Gohan flies down to try and catch Krillin, but Gashu fires a suppressing volley to keep Gohan away. Gashu and Vinegar surround Gohan, forcing him to parry attacks from both of them at once and preventing him from helping Krillin.
Watching Krillin fall, Gohan explodes with rage yet again. He fires a pair of ki blasts, one from each hand, into Gashu and Vinegar's guts. The blasts pulse for a moment while the Mazoku struggle to resist, disbelieving the sudden burst of power Gohan now possesses. Their efforts are in vain, however; The blasts explode, tearing apart Gashu and Vinegar. Gohan, now unimpeded, flies down after Krillin.
Only Garlic Jr. and Piccolo remain in the Heavenly Realm. Garlic smashes Piccolo down into the temple ruins. He gloats that the gap between their abilities is too vast for Piccolo to compete. He stares triumphantly at the rubble for a few seconds, waiting to see if Piccolo rises again. When nothing happens, he—
Oh, shit. Garlic Jr. remembers that by killing Piccolo, he's killed Kami as well. The Dragon Balls are gone now, so he can't revive Garlic Sr. like he'd intended to do. That's a whoopsy-doodle. Oh, well. He'll find some other way to bring his dad back to life. He has all the time in the world.
Garlic Jr. stomps away from the rubble and spots Gohan bringing the unconscious Krillin back to the platform. Gohan lays Krillin out carefully on the broken tiles. (...Okay, but why, though? Drop him off at Karin's sanctuary. He was already halfway down there anyway.)
Garlic calls out to Gohan, letting him know that he missed out on seeing Piccolo die. It's cool, though. They'll see each other again in Jigoku/Hell. Gohan moves into his—
Suddenly, a tall pillar still standing in the rubble beside Garlic cracks into pieces. It crumbles, interrupting any and all bluster and fighting that may have been about to occur. As it falls to pieces, it reveals Piccolo standing proud, arms folded, behind it.
(So that's where Piccolo was. He was crawling around in the rubble finding a good-sized piece of debris to shatter dramatically and reveal himself alive. I repeat: The shit Piccolo does for a dynamic entrance, I swear. No wonder he wound up tutoring Gotenks.)
Piccolo mocks Garlic Jr. for his confidence. Garlic seems to be under the impression that being a giant makes him stronger. Piccolo declares that he'll show Garlic what it truly means to become a giant! Piccolo expands to only a slightly larger size, maintaining his proportions. He boosts forward, delivering a knee strike to Garlic's chin.
Piccolo explains Garlic's mistake: By swelling up into this muscular behemoth, Garlic Jr. gains immense power. However, the power he gains is undermined by his loss of speed. This muscular form is too slow to keep up, and so there's no way for him to win. (Did Toei just fucking invent Super Saiyan Grade 3?!)
Down in Shinsenkai, Kami and Popo are still keeping up with their plan of sprinting super fast, right up until they slam face-first into an invisible barrier. Popo apologizes. He forgot about that. Shinsenkai is divided into various sections, and they require the former Kami's permission to pass.
(It turns out that a brisk jogging pace is not, in fact, sufficient to trespass uninvited upon the divine resting place of the gods. I know, I'm shocked too.)
The former Kami hits Kami with a bolt of his lightning. Smoke rises from Kami but he does not visibly react to it. Despite this, Popo assures Kami that another strike will kill him. Kami doesn't care, though; His attention is turned to the barrier. With a swell of force, Kami shatters the barrier. (Screw the former Kami, I suppose. We're forging ahead with this B&E!)
Funimation has Kami sing an off-key note to break the barrier, implying that he's shattering it like glass.
Kami and Popo jog through a new layer of Shinsenkai, now covered in pink mist instead of green. Kami collapses suddenly, struggling to breathe. He falls to his knees, holding himself up by one hand. His hand fades away, sinking into the mist. Kami realizes that his predecessor is attempting to draw his spirit out of him.
Popo wants to go back. Kami's body won't last long enough to reach the seven currents. Kami refuses, attempting to stand and keep going; However, he topples over, falling onto Popo. His body glows with golden energy.
As below, so above. Piccolo's arm also fades briefly out of existence before returning. Garlic accuses Piccolo of tiring out. He reminds Piccolo that he is immortal, and so all of this violence means nothing to him.
Kami and Piccolo continue onward until they are met by two former Kami spirits. The spirits shift into black, oily goop and grasp Kami, binding him in place. Kami begins to fade away once more.
Piccolo feels it too. Racing towards Garlic, he stumbles and falls onto one knee. His size shifts back down, losing his slightly taller form. Garlic's cool with this turn of events. He kicks Piccolo away, knocking him back up to his feet.
Kami refuses to die like this. He roars with power and blows off the oily tendrils. This allows Piccolo to recover. Piccolo moves in swiftly, delivering a series of blows to Garlic and driving him back into a broken wall behind him. The wall cracks from the impact of Piccolo's blows.
Kami and Popo reach another wall. Kami doesn't even slow down. He roars and smashes through the wall, moving into the next layer of Shinsenkai. This time the mist is green again. Kami's entire body below the waist turns transparent but he doesn't care. Screw this. He's still going.
Piccolo weakens from Kami's effect again. Garlic turns the tables, taking advantage of Piccolo's momentary lapse to grab hold of him and knee strike him away.
Gohan doesn't understand this back and forth, so Krillin explains it: Kami is in Shinsenkai having his spirit pulled out of him, which is affecting Piccolo through their mutual connection.
Piccolo lands flat on his back. Garlic wonders who will die first: Piccolo up here or Kami down there?
Popo smashes the final barrier. (Wait, he could fucking do that this whole time? Why were we making Kami do all the heavy lifting?!) At last, they see the font where all seven of Earth's air currents gather.
Garlic Jr. picks up Piccolo by the head and flings him into that large piece of rubble Piccolo had been punching him against earlier. Garlic marches forward, channeling power into his right fist. Time for Piccolo to die. He swings, throwing everything he's got into this blow. A flash of energy bursts forth from the moment of impact!
And we see Piccolo still standing. Gohan floats in the air in front of him, holding back Garlic's fist with both hands. Gohan screams, releasing his power and pushing Garlic back.
Down in Shinsenkai, Kami's goal is in sight. However, his life is nearly gone. An army of Kami spirits appears between him and the font for the seven currents. To be continued.
Vinegar and Gashu get fucking transformations, and all Tard and Zald got was that weaksauce fight! I've never seen the concept of Four Heavenly Kings so abruptly tossed aside like this before. Why even introduce a Shiten'no into your plot if you're not interested in using all four?
"Garlic Jr. has returned and he's brought the Four Heavenly Kings of the Mazoku! These four... these four... shit, what are we going to do with five bad guys? Uh, and then two of them died, no big deal."
That said, they go out disappointingly. Yet another rage boost, yet another angry ki blast taking out both of them. I swear, Gohan has more rage boosts in this one arc than in the entire manga. They really can't think of anything else to do with him.
To be fair, neither could Toriyama. Gohan stops getting fights after fully awakening his dormant power in the Frieza arc. Attacking Third Form Frieza is the end to Gohan's fighting career until Goku pits him against Cell, and Super Saiyan 2 is another rage boost. This is apparently all Gohan is as a fighter: a vessel for rage boosts.
Gohan doesn't fight. What happens is that fighting needs to occur, and Gohan is nearby, so fighting happens to Gohan. He's Krillin's support fighter, Piccolo's support fighter, a vessel for rage boosts, a vessel for Super Saiyan rage, a proxy for Goku to fight through, etc. He fills roles rather than having his own personalized style.
No wonder Toei goes back to the Piccolo's Sacrifice well so much. Toriyama's idea for how to tell a Gohan-centric story was to give up, throw his arms in the air, and stomp off. The story that would be Gohan's first as main character instead booted him out of the spotlight, and would become Toriyama's last Dragon Ball story for decades. Passing the torch to Gohan broke Dragon Ball.
Toei's idea, on the other hand, is, "Uhhhhhh rage boost rage boost rage boost?" Because he's spent so long being whatever other characters need him to be that he never developed his own unique identity as a martial artist. Neither creator has much in the way of ideas for creating fights with Gohan at their center that are as meaningful and engaging as the ones Goku has fought over the years.
Gohan is the strongest in the universe, but has only ever pretended to be a martial artist because the circumstances needed someone to. Even his most iconic looks are cosplays of Piccolo and Goku, with his more unique outfits being relegated to failure and disappointment on the battlefield. And despite multiple efforts, nobody seems able to fix that.
On a side note, I suddenly realized something, watching Piccolo fade away while Krillin explains what's happening to Gohan. Gohan is aware of this connection but I think this is the first time he's ever seen it for himself. In fact, this arc is the first time he's ever even been to Tenkai or met Kami, for that matter. Manga Gohan never meets Kami; The first time he visits Tenkai is when Goku brings him here to train in the Room of Spirit and Time.
Gohan is the one character in the entire cast to be on Team Piccolo instead of Team Kami, which is also deliciously ironic since he's also the most virtuous, noble, and all-around good character in the cast.
Truly, irony is Gohan's defining trait.
Lastly, I am super disappointed about Shinsenkai. The Kami Spirits are all generically evil black smoke monsters who want to kill Kami just 'cause. They don't speak. They can't be reasoned with. All they do is attack. Chaotic Evil one-dimensional monster ghosts.
There's a setup here for a better story. Each layer belongs to a different spirit and Kami must earn their blessing to pass. But since they're Chaotic Evil monster ghosts, the solution is to shrug off their attacks and Power Level through the barriers. Fuck interesting storytelling, I guess. This is stupid and I hate it.
Setting aside the vast waste of a story that is Shinsenkai, there is merit in the concept of Piccolo and Kami both facing trials of their own simultaneously. As one falters, so too does the other struggle. There's a tempo where they rise and fall together, the obstacles of one impeding the other, and that's super cool. Toriyama's never done anything of that sort with these two characters, and watching this makes me wish he had.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 13th 2022 at 9:30:41 AM
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Funny but not helpful
“Lastly, I am super disappointed about Shinsenkai. The Kami Spirits are all generically evil black smoke monsters who want to kill Kami just 'cause. They don't speak. They can't be reasoned with. All they do is attack. Chaotic Evil one-dimensional monster ghosts”
Missed a chance to do Anything with Previous Kami.
I suggest that he be a dinosaur. Just a big dinosaur in kami robes going “overall B-, good but not great Kami-ing”
I guess though that it’s weird that there is a secret kami graveyard when Toriyama already said would happened to Kami when he was temporarily dead
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Queen of Good Things, Honest
Still musing on Gohan. I've compared Gohan to Superman before. Writing a story for Gohan is like writing one for Superman, rather than writing one for Goku.
But reflecting on the realizations I had with this episode, I take that back. I think Spider-Man would be a better place to draw inspiration from. Spidey is incredibly powerful, but also frequently on the back foot. His enemies aren't usually foes he can defeat by punching harder than they do. Instead, they challenge Spidey to think.
Not just the quick thinking of martial combat, but academic thinking. Spidey is challenged to Super-Genius up solutions to what his enemies are, while his powers serve as a means to deliver those solution. Giant lizard monster is too stronk, but lizards slow down in cold temperatures, and also I whipped up this cure for the lizard formula in my lab. By taking this fight to a cold place, I can slow him down enough to get in, overpower, and administer the counter-serum.
For a Gohan-centric story, pitching him into conflicts where he can Book Smart his way to answers would be an effective way of giving him a unique identity as a martial artist. Give him villains like Magetta, made of invulnerable metal and super-heating the surrounding territory, and then let Gohan science up a way to solve that.
That, I think, is how you "fix" Gohan: By creating conflicts that allow him to combine his academic studies and martial arts prowess to find a path through.
But instead of being able to use this one unique aspect of his character, I think Gohan has too long been defined by the search for an identity. He's tried on Piccolo's. He's tried on Goku's. He was a superhero for a while. He reached new levels of Super Saiyan, but then gave that up and became a holy warrior awakened by the Old Kaioshin, but then gave that up and went back to using Super Saiyan. Then he gave that up because he wants to advance as a human.
Gohan has spent his entire fighting career searching for identity, rather than simply having an identity. Because the one thing that truly makes him distinct isn't something either Toriyama nor Toei knows how to write. In yet another dose of irony, what makes Gohan stand out and what would be amazing to do something with is what Chi-Chi taught him.
EDIT: In fact, this is one of the things I commend Lord Slug for. The movie opens with Gohan and Piccolo discovering a neurological weakness Namekians have. In the climax, Gohan and Piccolo turn the tables on Slug, altering the course of the fight by exploiting that neurological weakness they discovered.
Stuff like that, but without Piccolo doing all of the heavy lifting, would be perfect Gohan writing.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 13th 2022 at 10:06:35 AM
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Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
Wow. I meant that as a joke, but now I'm thinking that may be it exactly.
Edited by HandsomeRob on Jan 13th 2022 at 10:21:45 AM
One Strip! One Strip!
I mean.... yeah? But unironically?
Gohan was introduced as Goku's four years old, untrained child, who gets to be relevant in fights because he has a rage activated "hidden power", that lets him skip all the steps everyone had to take to be able to fight at that level. His entire identity as a fighter revolves around that. He's a gimmick fighter, and his gimmick is rage boost.
Like, Gohan's peak, the moment when he surpasses his father and briefly takes over as the main character, is just rage boosting harder than he ever raged boosted before. His potential is realized through rage boosting.
That was the natural culmination of his development. No wonder Toriyama had no idea what to do with him after that.
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
His four year old child that was born five years ago and became six a year later.
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Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
Double post but it's a random thought: it's kinda hilarious that Rob has complained that the series is so reliant on Goku, they made an arc about how if Goku isn't alive, the world is doomed and everybody, civilians and the Dragon Team alike, will be slaughtered without hope, leaving just the children and Bulma to provide what little resistance.
And yet, in the new timeline meant to prevent that, Goku's pretty much laid out with a heart disease for 80-90% of the arc and even after he recovers, what he does can be counted on one hand. Granted, it requires all but one finger...
1. Saves Tien and Piccolo's life with Instant Transmission.
2. Introduces Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan to the Room of Spirit and Time, allowing them to get strong enough to challenge and nearly kill Cell.
3. Teleports Dende from New Namek so as to restore the Dragon Balls as a safety net.
4. Trains with Gohan so he'll be strong enough to fight Cell, even at Mastered Super Saiyan.
So, basically, without Goku to use the Instant Transmission to save people and restore the Dragon Balls, provide a way to get stronger in a shorter amount of time with the Room of Spirit of Time and use that time to get Gohan up to ever greater peaks of strength then seen before, the world would be doomed.
Goku's only role here seems to be just as support. Important support but it's not exactly "trying to hold their own against Nappa or Frieza". He's not even the one to defeat Cell!
Also-
You know, I might want to get back into Dragon Ball: Super at some time...but only the dub because can the sub really top two Vegeta actors facing off against one another because holy shit, it's Chris Sabat fighting Brian Drummond? Of Ocean "see you in the next dimension" Dub fame?
The only way this could be better is if Copy!Vegeta was shouting "Is this what you like to do to me? Enjoy the sight as you're sent...TO THE NEXT DIMENSION!"
Also, nasal-voiced Cowboy Tien.
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
New merchandise related to Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero is trickling out. We have key chains featuring the castnote , alongside a set of 12 mini-towels with original character protaits.
Edited by XMenMutant22 on Jan 13th 2022 at 7:14:13 AM
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
Gohan's base design is weird, it's like they tried to combine his Cell Games hairstyle and Buu Saga hairstyle.
The Head of the Hydra
His hair is bigger
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
It looks like bed-head.
I know there's been some buzz a week or so ago that Trunks (and thus presumably Goten) might be in the movie since his VA was credited, which if true might account for the two unrevealed figures if - say - the two finally have new designs.
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
The series just seems to like playing with the fact that Goku and Vegeta just find it impossible to work together.
Not sure why on Goku's end. Like, he's been willing to ask for Vegeta's help before (against Ginyu, during the fight with Super Buu when they formed Vegetto, during the fight with Fused Zamasu where they formed Vegetto, and most recently with Broly where they busted out Gogeta).
It does seem to take extreme circumstances, but when things go sour, he says Hey Vegeta! What works? Team works!
But it also have him say he hates the idea of teaming up with Vegeta during both versions of Resurrection F, and they still do that annoying thing where they take turns and insist on fighting one on one too, so it seems it takes realizing he can't win on his own for Goku to consider teaming up with Vegeta and he'd avoid it if he had the choice.
One Strip! One Strip!