Manga/Dragon Ball

The pandering is exclusive to Super I'll admit. Most everything else people complain about had its roots in something from the original or the Z anime.

Yea, and I really don't agree that is somehow worse than what the Z anime did. Because the general premise is still the same, that the show ignores its own in-universe rules to justify a cool thing happening. This happens in the Manga too, albeit not as much.

That said, yes the pandering does exist in Super more exclusively.

I mean, I never got the impression Toriyama cared about how the fans wanted him to use characters. He did as he pleased. That's not to say he didn't change his mind based on fan demand.

Vegeta's current status owes itself to him exploding in popularity, but I doubt that played a role in him becoming Trunks' Dad. It's just that the former helped give way to the latter.

I do like it when Goku gets to show off that he's not just a big power level and actually knows how to fight smart. Goku vs Caulifla, Goku vs Rozie, and Goku vs Jiren Round 2 are all nice examples of this.

I wouldn't say they were pointless. It's a tournament. Every enemy is going to end up being knocked out. They served their role in providing a big mid-tournament setpiece. To that end they got pre-tournament showings, early fights to build them up, development and characterization during the tournament, all to get you invested when the big fight happens. All that didn't go to waste. I mean, they didn't get Super Saiyan 3 but that's obviously being saved for Super 2 and whenever Toriyama remembers to do a Planet Sadala arc.

I get frustration that they weren't the last ones standing in their Universe, but that was honestly one of the favorite parts of Episode 118, where Universe 6 and 2 get eliminated. Because those universes had already lost their most powerful fighters, their final stands were with weaker fighters getting strength from their desperation, which was some nice drama we usually don't see when all the other universes had their strongest fighters being the last ones.

Aren't you always complaining about that power scale? You don't have to defend something you dislike you know.

I find the girls s waste because for all their hype they just ended up fodder for Goku's own development.

When they finally started getting focus their most serious fight after some minor scuffles is against a tired man who by virtue of being battle-damaged & actively holding back to watch them improve in a way discredits their own threat level.

Even when they fuse the only thing Kefla does is beat down Goku a bit before she is utterly curb-stomped & humiliated by him when he goes Ultra Instinct.

All in all its not a stellar showing in the end honestly. Hell the possibility of their being a trip to Planet Sadala eases nothing because there is no indication that's ever happening.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 3rd 2019 at 7:22:41 AM

Goku v Caulifla was a really bad demonstration of his skill, because despite the characters commenting on how his skill allowed him to keep up with her, the way he fought was super direct (he literally matches her punch with his own, head-on) and it just looks like a battle of equal strength.

And then when he turns Super Saiyan 2 he continues to fight evenly with her, even though he should logically dominate if he was so much more skilled.

I think you're being needlessly harsh on them: that Goku was far above their level is a given since the U6 vs U7 tournament, when Vegeta curbstomped Cabba.

The U6 Saiyans lack all the powerups the U7 Saiyans have, of course they can't measure up.

At look at it this way: Kefla forced Goku to go Ultra-Instinct to take her out. That is far from what the vast majority of TOP figthers other than Jiren.

It was a cute moment when Goku was training the girls into good figthers. Him becoming a mentor is a natural progress of his character just like it was with Vegeta and Cabba.

You don't need to win a fight for it to offer you good characterization, that's a very limited viewpoint.

Honestly these mentorships are kinda crappy.

Vegeta has only talked to Cabba literally 3 times in the entire show. When they meet, the baseball episode, & finally the tournament, & in the tournament its treated as this major part of both characters that Vegeta's wish is resurrect his "students" universe.

It is not given enough focus at all.

Shit Cabba is immediately taken out in his one spotlight episode & neither his "mentor" or friends have any problems with Frieza afterwards.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 3rd 2019 at 7:39:09 AM

I do feel that one of the top five moments of the US arc was Goku surfing on Kafla's Christmas beam.

I think it is given exactly as much focus as it should, but that's probably too YMMV to really be debated.

Regardless, I loved the whole Kefla stretch of the TOP and I can't wait for those two to show up again.

3 episodes in a show of over a 120 episodes.

Indeed its gotten....... enough focus as it should.

I wouldn't say humiliated. They go out in the coolest possible way that makes Kefla look like a badass even as she's on her way out, and the show takes strides to establish that Goku was in real danger of losing that fight.

I referring to the parts where Goku fights with tricks like Afterimage and Instant Transmission. They're part of what induces Caulifla to stop fighting like a brawler. (which is why there isn't that huge a difference between the Super Saiyan 2's, the skill difference isn't as wide by that point in the fight)

I'm not super invested in Vegeta and Cabba, but amount of episodes isn't everything. It's possible to establish a lot in a small amount of time.

Exactly.

It's like that Ernest Hemmingway quote I always love using: "You only need to see the tip of the iceberg to know the rest is there".

Okay, he didn't quite say that, but the meaning is effectlively the same.

Well while the fight was epic Kefla went out in a something of a temper tantrum. She gets pissy, & starts randomly throwing attacks before going nuclear out of sheer rage & frustration while Goku due to Ultra Instinct stays cool as ice the whole time.

So the awesomeness kinda comes more from Goku for taking out his insane raging opponent with grace & style like Gogeta vs Broly.

Also I recall that Vegeta & Cabba's encounter's in-universe are just the 3 times they've been brought together by the Gods. I'm sorry but that's barely an apprenticeship. At least establish that Cabba visits on occasion off-screen.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:00:08 AM

Wouldn't "the rest" be anything that is implied to happen off screen?

Yeah, but Kafla going nuclear is still fucking awesome to watch. It's easily one of the coolest final attacks in the series, her just powering up more and more and firing more and more beams and blasts everywhere until she finishes by combining everything into two of the giant beam that Kale and Caulifla used to take out the Pride Troopers.

Eh, even if I don't like it, it's a intricate part of the series, and always has been. I can't really ignore it either. So I figure as long as they stick to their own rules, I can more or less deal with it, even if I think it's massively stifling in some ways.

I honestly don’t really find the Sayian girls pointless. I’m probably bias because I actually really like them both but I think they were fun characters that served their role as, ultimately the tournament mid-boss well. I agree with what others have already said about them getting decent build up and appearances before and during the tournament to establish them. Plus I really like the idea of Goku taking on a sort of mentor role to them, and REALLY hope they do more with it in the future. They were honestly the most memorable new characters the arc added to me, and without them the arc would have been worse to me.

Bias is Beast.

And let us not forget that a Fusion tends to combine the fusees personality traits together as well, and not always for the best. (coff Gotenks coff)

You put in Kale's tedency for explosive outbursts with Caulifla's general brashness, and that is pretty much what you get.

The continuation of Dragon Ball Super announced.

As a movie.

Kefla's personality is kind of a bog-standard fusion though.

Wait another one?

and

That's a bit of a surprise. Maybe they think (Resurrection F being an exception) that the movies just do better than the series.

Will it be based off the current arc in the manga, or be it's own thing is my question.

Neato, no more shit animation!

...hopefully.

Why are we spoiler tagging this?

Edited by HailMuffins on Jun 4th 2019 at 2:35:12 PM

It's a secret, can't you tell?