Manga/Dragon Ball

This last part is a very good point. Even without knowledge of his Oozaru form, if Goku thought he was more powerful with his tail, then it would be a strange choice for him to let Kami cut it off. Then again, when Toriyama wants to do something, he tends to not be worried about how in character it is for his characters so I still have doubts.

Didn't GT go with the explanation that having a tail actually made Goku stronger?

Yet another thing I don't like about GT, but I thought that was a thing.

Sounds like the original idea was that Goku was stronger with his tail, but that idea was quietly slid under the rug when Toriyama realized he hated drawing them.

Sounds about right. And since he established that all Saiyans have tails, he now gets rid of them as quickly as possible.

I mean, he had the Universe 6 Saiyans evolve to no longer need them. Isn't that convenient?

I personally like th tails, it's simple but it does set the saiyans apart from humans, plus it's kinda cute when they emote

Also about GT Goku getting stronger with his tail, it's more that his tails helps him stabilize his super saiyans forms, since GT Perfect Files states that he has trouble using them in his child body

That and once he got his tail, SS 3 lasted longer than before

Still, I Don't really mind the tails being gone, I like them and I wish to see them come back, but I can deal with them gone

Edited by Fedetropes on Dec 6th 2018 at 9:10:23 AM

Yeah. Without tails, Saiyans are just humans with really crazy hair cuts. The tails set them apart.

Plus, Super Saiyan Oozaru. I'd love for it to be a thing. Sure, it wouldn't be that strong...until you bust out Super Saiyan 2...and three.

Plus I still have my fan theory that lack of tails are the reason the Super Saiyan forms chug so much energy. Considering an Oozaru will stay in that form until the moon is gone, maybe the tail helps balance the energy used.

But that's just my idea (I've mentioned it a million times), and it has no actual basis in canon...even though it's completely right.

A super saiyan oozaru would actually be stronger than a super saiyan 3 and probably burn through less energy

One fanon I had to reconcile the whole 'tails just get in the way once you're strong enough' idea was that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan's final zenkai gave them their Oozaru power in their base forms.

That'd explain why those last Zenkai were so huge. Goku got about 33x stronger, but if gaining the Oozaru power was part of that, then it's really 3.3x from just the zenkai portion.

It'd fit with Ultimate Gohan later doing the same thing with Super Saiyan, at the time of Resurrection F I thought the idea would be that Goku/Vegeta eliminated their Super Saiyan forms as a necessary step to obtain their Blue forms, which would fit Oozaru being eliminated before they obtained Super Saiyan.

Universe 6 obviously contradicted the Blue part since Goku and Vegeta went back to using SS 1, but the Universe 6 Saiyans evolving past having tails (and being pretty strong before reaching SS) fits in well with that.

And then Broly completely screws with that idea by showing what a humanoid Oozaru form looks like

Being honest, I would have liked if the stuck to the godly base form and only stuck to their blue forms as the only Super Mode

That's the route I usually go in my fanworks

The idea of oozaru in base form sounds interesting, but Broly threw that idea into disarray like you said

I too would have preferred them to go to one Super Mode, with my idea being that their base is more like Ultimate - the strength of all their Super Saiyan forms without transforming - and their only transformation being a God form on top of it.

But Super's arcs don't work really well with the old forms being written out, the base Saiyans would become too powerful. Well, you could stop making them go up against weaker opponents and use other characters for that.

Edited by Saiga on Dec 6th 2018 at 10:52:07 PM

You think when Nu-Broly makes it into Fighter Z he'll be playable primarily in his Rage form?

I too would have preferred if Goku just had god and blue as the sum of his transformations after BoG.

As an addition to that, I'd still have Vegeta using SS. Where Goku would just tap into SSG, Vegeta would brute force it by powering up above SS2. Like what Trunks kinda did in the anime, but more definitive. Vegeta getting god would be a big deal and the end of his use of SS.

I also would have blue look like a step up from god instead of just blue SS, but that's just me.

I'd definitely prefer that, but Xenoverse added his Full Power form as the only form he's in and I expect them to use that.

What do you envision Blue looking like if it's meant to be a step up of God?

Edited by Saiga on Dec 6th 2018 at 10:53:25 PM

Well, god actually changed them physically. They were taller, leaner and looked younger. It could be just that still, where it actually conveys the idea that they're using divine power. They physically change to represent that.

As far as I can tell, the blue transformation drops that.

Edited by Zeromaeus on Dec 6th 2018 at 7:57:28 AM

Yeesh I hope Fighter Z doesn't do that.

Like we already have a Broly in his Legendary state.

Wouldn't be very visually diverse or creative if we get another one stuck in his Legendary state.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 6th 2018 at 4:57:16 AM

It did have it in some of the reference art for Resurrection F, but yeah they totally dropped the skinny thing for the actual forms. I don't really like the skinny SSG though, but I like the idea of them looking younger/"ageless" which would fit a God.

I would (and how I usually do) is having them use their base forms most of the time and only use blue for the really though fights

In case of them teaching U6 saiyans and Trunks of the other super saiyan forms, well I guess they tell them how they are rather than show it to them, that's the only hard part

Yeah, those are the issues I was thinking of.

And frankly most of the opponents they fight in Super would be absolutely no challenge for Super Saiyan 3 (without some real weirdness) and a Godly base would be even harder to write for, unless you're reserving them for the bigger battles.

The only time I would have them use blue is against Hit, Black and Jiren in the TOP, the other times they just use base and win handily (there's Beerus and Whis, but they always are stronger than them so it doesn't really matter)

And I think I give Gohan and the next strongest members some chance to shine and saving Goku and Vegeta for the though ones

...Damn. That's not bad. Ok, you win another round Saiga.

...Well, that movie is gonna be interesting. it'll make more sense in context, but I shouldn't be shocked Toriyama just did his own thing.

See, that's strange, because when this has been pointed out by others, you've said there's no point in putting, say Krillin up against someone who Goku can beat in half a second. So I'm assuming you've either changed your mind and are finally admitting I'm right and have been right for all eternity, or I've just misunderstood your previous statements.

PS: choose the first one.

Being serious, if Toriyama was willing to spread out some of the techniques that Goku has abandoned, it could make for a way to keep the weaker characters from being instantly Roflstomped as they often are. While having Goku explore the God forms and Ultra Instinct (once he figures out how to do it), the Kaioken and the Spirit Bomb can get some love again. Hell this might even be better than Kaioken Blue, and I like Blue.

It's been a long time since I cared about it this much, but I fancied Goku sticking to the Super Saiyan God form (Red God) while Vegeta would create Super Saiyan Blue after asking for training from Whis. Blue would be the result of Vegeta learning how to draw God Ki into his body, but altering his original Super Saiyan form to channel any of it. This would give him a second pool of Ki to draw from entirely. Goku's Red God would be harder to explain because I also have the idea of Gohan drawing on the energy of the universe to make his Ultimate state stronger and discover an Enlightenment Superpower, but the main idea is it's the result of the permanent metamorphoses his body underwent after the ritual.

Edited by VeryMelon on Dec 6th 2018 at 8:32:02 AM

That's definitely workable. I'd given up on the idea of reducing Goku and Vegeta to a smaller set of forms, but with some changes it could work. The manga showed that you can do the TOP without having those two needing to fight lots of weaker characters.

I'd probably keep God in there, to demonstrate how much stronger Blue is (with things like Goku vs Hit) and help develop Blue's progression through its stamina issues as the manga used it.

Well I'm not saying to use someone like Kuririn, he's way too outclassed. But for a premise like the TOP, you can have Goku and Vegeta try to converse stamina and avoid fighting while fighters like Piccolo and 18 fight

Edited by Saiga on Dec 6th 2018 at 11:36:15 PM

Fair enough. That makes sense. Shame that 18 will never be put to good use.

The reason given in the Super manga for Goku and Vegeta (and presumably Gohan) don't get zenkais anymore is that they'd already hit their limit (heavily implying that they flat-out don't make big gains in base anymore). Though they never explained why Zamasu-Goku was an exception. My initial thoughts were that they DID keep getting zenkais, but that the big ones were one-offs, so they'd only gain a few hundred to a few thousand battle power points, i.e. totally irrelevant.

I mean, very small gains is an explanation for how Kid Goku could feel stronger with his tail.

Literally one point.

Still enough to feel when he started at 10 and only got to 200 ish at King Piccolo. Daimao.