German Politics Thread

There are plenty of national movements who have flags, it’s not unreasonable to ask if their flags are protected under this law. It’s not just the Palestinian flag, there’s the Taiwanese flag, the flag of Kosovo, the flags of the breakaway states from Georgia, ect...

Are regional flags allowed? Can you burn the flag of England but not of the UK? Can you burn the flag of Barcelona but not Spain? International organisations? It says that the EU flag is protected, but is the African Union flag? The Arab League flag?

From what you’re saying I think that defunct flags can be burned? Does that include the old flags of Germany?

This is far from simple.

Apologies then, that could be an interesting question indeed.

I assume that it only includes countries that are recognized by Germany and entities that are specifically included in the law (which to my knowledge is only the EU).

We would probably need someone to sue to get clarification on the more difficult cases. More specifically we would need someone to burn e.g. a Taiwanese flag and someone else make a complain to the police. But since flag burning de facto only applies to Israel and American flags in Germany, I doubt that will happen.

Edit. Though now that I think about it, Kurdish protesters did burn a Turkish flag in Freiburg one or two years ago, so I guess that will also be affected.

Edited by Zarastro on May 15th 2020 at 9:29:16 PM

My main concern is that you could have a situation emerge where two protesting groups burn each other’s flags but only one group gets arrested. Be that Kurdish-Turkish groups, Serbian-Kosovan groups, Palestinian-Israeli groups.

It will especially not reflect well on Germany if the people from/supporting the less powerful party in a conflict are the only ones who get arrested.

Kosovo is a country recognized by Germany, and I doubt the other ones are scenarios to worry about. You don't see any anti-Palestinian protests in Germany, and the Turkish protesters usually - at least in Freiburg - usually have their anti-PKK and anti-YPG flags. They like to burn PKK flags which is legal in Germany since it is recognized as a terrorist organisation.

That's what I'm concerned about, German police previously raided the home of a leftist who displayed a Kurdish flag. The benefit of the law (discouraging the burning of flags) is seriously outweighed by the cost (giving German police the opportunity to suppress activist groups via selective enforcement of the law).

I don't see how that law is possibly worth it.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 15th 2020 at 2:15:50 AM

The PKK or YPG flags are not the flag of the Kurdish people. The PKK is (for good reason, if you know about their activities in Germany) listed as a terror organisation. You won't see the police interfere for showing the Kurdish flag.

Edited by Zarastro on May 15th 2020 at 11:22:20 AM

Whether or not they're "terrorists" is very much a political position, I would bet that Germany only designated them in such a way because of its relations with Turkey. Their so-called terrorism hasn't stopped Germany from working with them against ISIS.

Yeah, meanwhile they Grey Wolves are still legal in Germany.

I wonder why.

The PKK has in the 1990s commited various political crimes in Germany, including arson, and the attempted murder of Turkish diplomats. The PKK was also highly involved in the German drug market to finance their activities.

One year ago or so, the PKK has officially apologized for this and asked for their status to be revised, but this will take time and effort.

Edited by Zarastro on May 15th 2020 at 4:16:34 PM

Coronavirus: Why Merkel may help fund Europe's recovery plan

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52807748

This is really an interesting debate to follow. Merkel is putting her party on a spot here, since most of the CDU is opposed to any "Coronabonds". But I suppose many members still feel that the party of Adenauer and Kohl can't really look and watch how populists in Southern Europe would use this crisis to destroy the EU, claiming lack of European solidarity.

Personally I would not mind if we take some EU money going to Poland and Hungary and direct it to countries whose governments who a) are affected by the crisis and b) appreciate the EU more.

If Trump kicks out Twitter, there's always Germany

That was brilliant.

Though let's be honest, Twitter wouldn't have a good time over here.

Because they'd be forced to actually enforce their rules for once.

And pay taxes.

Berlin is voting on an anti-discrimination bill that's being spun as 'anti-police.'

I wish it was as anti-cop as the spin says it is, but hey, given what's going on in the world right now (and yes, by now it has spread beyond the US), it's a welcome change of pace.

Berlin always finds ways to prove that indeed, they are governed by the worst regional government in recent memory. As if the previous attempts of systematically undermining the police was not enough, they just went for the killing blow.

Edited by Zarastro on Jun 5th 2020 at 5:37:46 PM

For the non-German speakers in the thread, anyone care to explain the bill?

Good. They, like the Bundeswehr and the other regional police departments, can get rid of their fascists first.

Then I might actually take accusations of 'undermining the police' seriously.

The gist of it is that it puts the burden of proof of racial profiling and discrimination on the government of Berlin rather than on the person coming forward with the accusation of discrimination.

Edited by math792d on Jun 5th 2020 at 8:51:02 AM

It basically means the burden of proof is reversed. Police officers will have to proof that they did not discriminate when e.g. conducting an investigation.

I suppose it wasn't enough that the Berlin senate turned a whole city district into a lawless zone, made the Görlitzer park to the biggest drug trafficking market in Europe and ignored the problem of clan criminality. I wonder how the police should still work in the Rigaer Str. Then again, I suppose preventing that might be one of the aims of this law.

And spelling that out doesn't make you realize how stupid and dangerous this law is? The accused will now have to prove his innovence or be found guilty.

Edited by Zarastro on Jun 5th 2020 at 5:59:53 PM

I mean, the innocent have nothing to fear from investigation, right?

He can just provide proof by wearing proper identification, having witnesses testify to his good behavior, or perhaps wear some kind of...I don't know, camera to prove he isn't some kind of goose-stepping twathammer.

I'm sorry, my heart truly bleeds for the public officials who don't want to be held accountable.

Edited by math792d on Jun 5th 2020 at 9:06:53 AM

It puts the burden of proof on the government or on the officers being accused? Also in what context? A criminal case, a civil case? Also is it a requirement to prove discrimination didn’t happen or a requirement to investigate even if the initial complaint doesn't come with evidence back it up?

Edited by Silasw on Jun 5th 2020 at 4:08:55 PM

Specifically, the defendant in a case like this would be the state of Berlin, and the burden is thus on the government, not the officer.

Which makes sense, police profiling and discrimination is an institutional failure, not an individual one.

Not knowing how easy it is to frame police officers already. Seriously, there are quite some stories out there. And especially not when the police is e.g. arresting someone from a clan, which can often cause a huge commotion. It is difficult enough to make arrest under such circumstances. But how do you proof your innocence when 10 clan members accuse you of racism and you only have fellow police officers as your own witnesses?

In a court of law like everybody else.

I'm sorry, but as a person who would be considered a criminal suspect in the entire state of Bavaria if I happened to be two blocks over from a crime, this seems perfectly reasonable.

Edited by math792d on Jun 5th 2020 at 9:20:31 AM