German Politics Thread

I hope so. I actually think that this is a fairly good mix.

It certainly sounds promising. The Greens could get some important reforms pushed as coalition-party and the SPD could finally renew itself, once it is in the opposition and recover some of their lost voters.

I think, that constantly having to govern as junior partner, while getting little done in the eyes of the public has hurt them severely, so getting on the opposition-bench for a while would probably give them time to recover.

Also, if AKK is indeed winning this, then Merkels legacy would be pretty much secure. A better end to her long career she couldn't really get at this point.

Edited by TheNohen on Nov 23rd 2018 at 3:38:43 PM

I am not so sure, I think AKK is slightly to the right of Merkel. But I don't doubt that AKK beliefs in social market economy, which is for me the most important feature in a CDU leader. That's what the conservatives have been about pretty much since Adenauer after all.

What the SPD needs to do is to refocus itself on the worries of the common worker. They need to stop trying to be a "Volkspartei" and start to be being an "Arbeiterpartei" instead. Thanks to Schröder it looks more like the party of the "Wirtschaftsbosse", which has damaged them more than the coalition ever did.

There is talk that some in the SPD want to try and go back to the ways of Willy Brandt, which at the very least sounds promising.

Considering that Brandt was probably one of the best SPD-chancellors we had (despite his short term) I don't think it is that foolish to learn from him.

As for AKK, I am fully aware she is more right/conservative than Merkel, but she still is a safer bet than anyone else right now and at the very least does not have the disconcerting tendency of many conservatives currently to try and flirt with the right-radicals or the AFD. That counts for something in my book.

She is conservative, but the sane, sensible version. One, that seems to have been forgotten in many other parts of the world.

Edited by TheNohen on Nov 23rd 2018 at 4:07:30 PM

I would argue that there's no such thing as a sensible conservative, just different shades of reactionary that people are willing to put up with.

And while she would never call herself "Mittelstand", she actually very much belongs into the category - well, as much as a successful Politician can. Unlike Merz who comes from a pretty well-off family (nicht overly rich, but certainly no longer classic "Mittelstand" no matter what he likes to claim) and has gotten everything in live on a silver platter. Not that I would mind this in itself, but someone who has two planes and still thinks that he can relate to "normal" people has no idea what he is talking about in my mind. She has worked herself up the ladder, and she actually refused to take the so called "Übergangsgeld" which she usually would have gotten after leaving her job in Saarland. So all in all she strikes me as someone, well, honest. That was always the best feature about Merkel too, whatever you might think about her politics, in all those years there was never a whiff of her misusing her job in any way (and I can't say the some about either Schröder or Kohl).

In the end, that is kind of the most important feature for a leader.

Some people would say the same about the leftists. I don't think that this is true, in either direction. At least not in German politics.

Edited by Swanpride on Nov 23rd 2018 at 7:19:30 AM

Reactionaries would be politicians, who would want to return to better times or, to be more precise, their version of better times.

Conservatives are actually more about holding the current status quo.

Problem is that many reactonaries pretend they are conservatives or are hijacking conservative parties to enact their agenda. They are not actually conservatives themselves.

A good example would the Republican Party in the U.S.A, which is actually a reactionary party, but pretends to be conservative.

Edited by TheNohen on Nov 23rd 2018 at 4:20:09 PM

Exactly. Republicans want to turn the clock back. Conservatives are slow to pick up the movement of society, but that is actually okay as long as they are able to accept that society has moved, and honorable enough to allow the change to happen.

It's not like Germany has done particularly badly with mostly conservative governments.

Worth noting that universal healthcare was first introduced to Germany by a conservative government.

Well...yes, but one has to understand that the conservative governments in Germany tended to do stuff like that mostly to shut up the Social Democrats. It was actually quite an interesting dynamic. Still is, except that the SPD has kind of lost its way, but they are naturally still pretty powerful within the unions and the various social organisations in Germany. It is true, though, that the conservatives in Germany somehow have a better understanding for left-wing ideas than usual. They just tend to reframe it as "it's good for the economy". Ie health-care is good for the economy because if you keep your workers healthy, your are more productive. Sick-days aso are good for the economy because if someone goes too work while ill because he can't afford to do otherwise, other workers might get infected, too. Maternity leave is good for the economy, because you need workers in the future, so you have to make it easier for women to get their children. Aso.

Conservatism has always been about managing change. Admitting that change is inevitable and trying to make sure that things go as smoothly as possible, while making sure that the least number of people are left in a bad situation as a result.

Reactionary politics is basically "Good Old Days" and Nostalgia Filter for an imagined glorious golden age of the past. While scapegoating some present group for the ills of today. They're about as unlike Conservatism as the Sun is to the Earth.

And yes, while German Conservatism has always had a streak of the Moral Substitute to steal the thunder from the Social Democrats (been that way since Bismarck, IIRC), it's worked quite well for Germany so far. It's when they start pandering to the Reactionaries that there's a real problem.

...*coughs*CSU*coughs*

If I'm not mistaken, part of it is simply that Reaganism and Thatcherism never really infected the CDU like it did the Republicans, the Conservatives and the Republicans. The CDU looks a lot like the Eisenhower Republicans, to be truthful: a party of both big business and big government, investing in its workers because that makes for a stronger, more competitive and more profitable economy in the long run.

It might be because they never got as badly affected by the Oil Shock of 1970 as Britain and the United States got affected by it. IIRC, Neoliberal Economics only got into full swing at the precise point Keynesianism seemed to have failed. Thatcher and Reagan just jumped on it since they figured it was working and because of that sweet, sweet campaign money from Big Businesses who wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

Had Germany been just as badly jolted by the Oil Shock of '70, they might have swung to Thatcherite Economics too. Who knows?

The Oil Crisis was the moment when the membership of the EEC first really paid off, because it helped absorbing the shock quote a bit.

Which is something the CDU can take credit for.

Edited by Zarastro on Nov 23rd 2018 at 9:46:05 PM

I don't think so. See, the CDU literally invented social market economy (also called Rhineland capitalism) for Germany. They were naturally not the first who had theories in this direction, but they were the one who adapted it for the Bundesrepublik. And it has been kind of the core of their politics since then. Plus, it might have helped that the FDP is the "freer market" party already. Even when the CDU started to flirt with those kind of ideas, usually it had to pay attention to separat itself from their ideas, too.

The biggest risk was always the influence of the US, though. Really has done a number on our universities, there are a lot of things we desperately need to roll back if you ask me. But still, when pretty much everyone told Germany that it was crazy to focus on manufacturing while everyone else was chasing finances (UK) or IT (US), they stuck to their guns for a reason. Because manufacturing has ALWAYS worked for Germany. We are kind of attached to our "Wirtschaftswunder". (Not to mention that our unions have a say in all this too. It really makes a difference if you have them on your boards).

There is a lot the CDU can take credit for. And, to their credit, one of the reasons they want a change in leadership is because they feel that Merkel was a little bit too reactionary. While I don't agree completely - I actually prefer a calm hand over another "Platzhirsch" so to speak, the world politic has too many braggers as it is and the last time we made the mistake of voting for one of those we got what might be my least favourite Chancellor (certainly my least favourite in my own living memory, but that isn't exactly a long list) - anyway, while I don't agree completely, I get the wish of a little bit "fresh air" so to speak. And maybe someone who looks one step further ahead than Merkel usually did.

Edited by Swanpride on Nov 23rd 2018 at 1:02:03 AM

There's a reason German Engineering is a byword for reliable. Volkswagen's bad behaviour notwithstanding. And that Airport.

That said, having a diversified economy like how the Germans have has managed to work out for them quite nicely. So, way to go CDU/CSU, I suppose.

Not a bad analogy. Also not a bad analogy in that the Eisenhower Republicans preached about the dangers of the military-industrial complex and the international arms trade while simultaneously being the largest arms dealer on the planet.

While Germany's not quite to the point of being the biggest weapons peddler on the planet (it's unlikely anyone's gonna trump the US any time soon), it is, as of 2016 (no prizes for guessing why that's a cutoff point) the fifth largest arms dealer on the planet, narrowly trailing behind the French.

Well...you know, this is partly kind of an automatic thing at this point. There is one thing Germany has which other countries don't have: A fond which is completely independent from taxes and can only used for one purpose and one purpose only: investments into the economy. So even if a government should start to slack or implement austerity measures after a finance crash, there is this little fond still working in the background ensuring that there are automatic impulses given (the money is used for affordable micro-credits for start-ups, for promising research and development aso).

But then, it was the CDU who set it up, too, so, yeah, go CDU, just not necessarily the current one.

The airport is an embarrassment. The Volkswagen affair really damaged the reputation of the brand "Made in Germany", but it was actually a very clever bit of engineering. I mean, who the hell even gets the idea to built in a system specifically designed to fool the usual tests?

I'm just glad that Saudi Arabia is off the list of export countries. Should have never been on it in the first place. But little steps. Though I admit, I am kind of amused about the fact that one customer of Germany is the US. Hopefully Trump never realizes that. But if he does, I want to see his reaction.

Edited by Swanpride on Nov 23rd 2018 at 3:15:06 AM

I would be more impressed if they had put that effort into CLEANER DIESEL CARS in the first place <.<

Or Electro Cars.

Edited by 3of4 on Nov 23rd 2018 at 12:12:59 PM

Me too.

German: The story of how Merz lost a very important Notebook, a homeless person found it and how he "thanked" them for it

Fuck that guy 😡

I have no words.

Well...on the upside, all those stories will now come back to bite him. That's something the voters have an easier time to judge than what he was up to behind the scenes.

Judge a person not by how they present themselves, but how they treat the poor, the young, the old, the sick and the oppressed.

Edited by 3of4 on Nov 24th 2018 at 11:43:33 AM