A thread to discuss electric vehicles and hybrid technology. No politics, please.
Technology, commercial aspects and marketing are all on-topic.
- Companies (e.g. Tesla Inc.) are only on-topic when discussing their electric vehicle products and research, not their wider activities. The exception is when those wider activities directly impact (or are impacted by) their other business areas - e.g. if electric vehicle development is cut back due to losses in another part of the business.
- Technology that's not directly related to electric vehicles (e.g. general battery research) is off-topic unless you're discussing how it might be used for vehicles.
- If we're talking about individuals here, that should only be because they've said or done something directly relevant to the topic. Specifically, posts about Tesla do not automatically need to mention Elon Musk. And Musk's views, politics and personal life are firmly off-topic unless you can somehow show that they're relevant to electric cars.
Also, posting this late, so sorry for any misspellings I might have left in there.
(Mod edited to replace original post)
Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 29th 2024 at 4:14:39 PM
Maybe, maybe not. It's probably going to depend on exactly where you are. On motorways and highways possibly (I'd argue that at least locally improvements in car design mean that it would already be feasible in some places) but unlikely on local roads because the limiting factor is going to be the reaction speeds of pedestrians.
Keep in mind that reaction time is only half the problem with high speeds. Deceleration injury is the other and that won't change with electrification.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lost in Space
Well, again, we're sort of in the wrong topic for this. Self-driving is what will make high-speed travel safe; it has nothing to do inherently with electrification, other than the fact that Tesla is making EVs that are also self-driving.
A fully automated vehicle can anticipate crashes significantly faster than a human driver and react quickly to avoid the situation or reduce injury. Combine that with far fewer crashes for self-driving cars and it'll be possible for regulators to relax certain rules, though it's probably not something that'll happen until a significant portion of cars are self-driving.
Other proposed ideas include high-speed travel lanes designated for self-driving cars, and of course, tunnels, a la The Boring Company.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
Back on-topic, Teslarati covers Daimler's announcement that it is abandoning internal combustion research in favor of electric vehicles
, becoming one of the first (if not the very first) major auto manufacturers to fully embrace the tide that is rising over the market.
One interesting implication is that Daimler owns the Freightliner brand, which makes long-haul trucks. If they are serious about this, we could see a lot more R&D going into all-electric trucks, which will help clean up a long-overlooked segment of the transportation industry. While people are looking forward to the Tesla Semi, it remains unclear how much manufacturing capacity (never mind battery production) Tesla has available for that product.
True to form, Elon Musk congratulated Daimler on Twitter.
Edited by Fighteer on Sep 19th 2019 at 4:09:41 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
More electrification news: (Teslarati) Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos reveals a plan to purchase 100,000 delivery vans from electric automaker Rivian. The first vehicles in this new fleet are expected to roll out in 2021. By replacing their petroleum-powered delivery trucks, Amazon is helping to address carbon pollution in a big way.
Rivian is also expecting to begin commercial production of an all-electric pickup truck soon.
Edit: Interesting. HyperChangeTV just covered this story and mentioned that many other companies have already placed orders with Tesla for the Tesla Semi. I don't have a lot of information about when full production of that truck is going to start, but apparently Amazon's investment in Rivian, plus other companies like Aurora, is intended to help it carve out its own niche in the SDEV marketplace.
More options and more competition in electric vehicles is always a plus.
Edited by Fighteer on Sep 19th 2019 at 9:09:09 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
Okay, this is kind of funny and sad at the same time. (Teslarati) Tesla faces lawsuit from New Jersey auto dealer association. In a nutshell, the association of NJ auto dealers is suing Tesla for several supposed violations of state laws. Specifically:
- Tesla was permitted four direct sales locations in the state and constructed a fifth "gallery" location where consumers can configure and order cars.
- Tesla pulled a "bait and switch" by announcing a $35,000 variant of the Model 3 and then upselling customers.
- Tesla misleads consumers by advertising its Autopilot system as a self-driving solution and including incentives and estimated gas savings in its pricing.
It's tempting to dismiss this lawsuit as coming from an outdated industry wielding the legal system in a desperate effort to avoid competition and thus cling to life for a few more years, but closer investigation reveals that it is... coming from an outdated industry wielding the legal system in a desperate effort to avoid competition and thus cling to life for a few more years.
It's particularly amusing since they claim in their opening statement that they don't see Tesla as a competitive threat. Sure, guys.
Anyway, let's discuss the claims a bit.
- Anyone can open up the Tesla app on their phone or go to tesla.com and order a car. The "gallery" is just a place where people can go to look at cars in person and get customer support while placing their orders. Tesla doesn't use a traditional dealer network, so these poor whiny babies feel left out.
- The $35,000 Model 3 is a legitimate option, albeit "off menu", and upselling from an advertised offer is a standard industry practice. They can dish it out but not take it?
- Autopilot is not advertised as a "self-driving" solution. Full Self-Driving is a separate feature, sold and described as such. The Tesla online store clearly shows prices with and without incentives and estimated cost savings. I've used it myself.
To call this lawsuit frivolous is an understatement, but I do have some concern that the entrenched auto dealer industry is going to keep throwing punches at Tesla as it continues to expand its market share.
What it calls into stark relief is the way that dealers have gotten legislative bodies to enshrine their existence by shutting out direct auto sales. At one point, it may have been necessary to protect them, but now it's just kind of sad. Since when does any business have a legal right to block competition?
Edited by Fighteer on Sep 20th 2019 at 4:53:08 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Oh, bother.
Here's an article from Cnet on the suit:
Tesla hit with new lawsuit from New Jersey dealer association
The complaints continue to include issues over advertising incentives and gas savings without presenting how they're calculated (Tesla does provide a breakdown on its website) and alleges a "bait and switch" by offering the most affordable, $35,000 Tesla Model 3 for a brief period of time. While it's more difficult to order the $35,000 Model 3, it can still be done.
Perhaps the most intriguing complaint is that Tesla advertises its Autopilot system as a "self-driving" system, which can mislead buyers into overpromising its capabilities. Today, there are no Level 5, nor Level 4, self-driving cars on sale, per the SAE scale of autonomy. Tesla does state on its website, "Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous."
The article notes that they are also suing the state.
"NJ CAR has spent decades advocating for firm and fair rules that create a level playing field and promote a competitive marketplace that benefits consumers and honest business owners alike," Jim Appleton, president of the Coalition of Automotive Retailer said in a statement. "Neighborhood new car dealers don't fear competition from Tesla — which accounts for less than 1% of the new car market in New Jersey — they simply object to unfair competition which places consumers at risk and local businesses at a competitive disadvantage."
I guess they're miffed that Tesla gets to sidestep a lot of the rules and regulations that dealerships have to follow.
Also from Cnet:
Volkswagen wants its electric cars to mirror traditional pricing model
Electric cars likely have years before they reach cost parity with vehicles donning an internal-combustion engine, but Volkswagen wants to scrap the waiting game. Instead, it's looking at an "apples to apples" kind of approach for its electric vehicles. That's the word from Volkswagen America CEO Scott Keogh.
The CEO told Green Car Reports in an interview published Tuesday that the automaker's goal is to price its electric cars comparable to a similar fossil fuel-powered model in its lineup. In this case, he spoke of the forthcoming ID 4 — an electric SUV that will mark VW's electric car assault on the US. The wonderful ID 3 hatchback isn't coming to America, to everyone at Roadshow's dismay.
Edited by M84 on Sep 20th 2019 at 5:03:38 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Who Am I?
Sounds like Tesla is the new Uber (except for the shady business practices).
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Lost in Space
Those "franchise laws" are the worst part, and yeah, it's very similar to the taxi medallion thing in large cities. As I've said many times, no business model has an inherent right to exist if it can't remain competitive.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Oh, bother.
Though I would not say Uber is good competition.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Lost in Space
Uber is terrible competition. The comparison is in its disruptive effect on the industry it's targeting, not its business ethics.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Who Am I?
Yeah, I was referring to their rivalry with taxi companies.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Uber exists in the form it does because taxi licensing is an utterly dumbassed monopoly, and because their response to that monopoly was to flat out ignore it and laugh in the face of lawsuits.
Now, of course, they continue to laugh in the face of lawsuits.
I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Oh, bother.
Competition is not so great when the competitor is even shittier.
Kind of like how even though Steam really needs competition, the Epic Store is not the answer.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Lost in Space
Pretty much. Which is why it's awesome that Tesla seems to be trying to do everything right.
Speaking of competition, here's another Teslarati article: Tesla Model S vs Porsche Taycan: The emerging Nurburgring EV arms race
While I recommend reading the article, some tidbits from it include that:
- Both the Tesla Model S Plaid and the Porsche Taycan Turbo lap times were "unofficial", meaning they aren't recorded in the Nürburgring record books.
- There is some confusion as to whether Porsche ran with the Turbo or Turbo S version; if the former, they may yet be able to set record lap times with the faster model.
- The Taycan that ran the lap was production spec with the addition of a roll cage, while the Model S was a prototype, racing variant, leading some to cry foul. There is, however, no evidence that the Model S was stripped-down (i.e., had its seats, trim, and other parts removed to save weight).
- Tesla has stated their intent to return with a production Plaid Model S next year and that it may be as much as 20 seconds faster than the prototype. Porsche, meanwhile, intends to keep competing and welcomes the challenge.
- The Model S ran multiple laps, and Tesla installed a Supercharger at the track so it could stay topped off. It wasn't a one-lap wonder, although one of the two cars they brought did break down during a lap. The Plaid Model S's ability to run multiple laps per day is comparable to ICE cars, which is important if it is to be truly considered a "track car".
Edited by Fighteer on Sep 22nd 2019 at 10:53:15 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Oh, bother.
Personally I'm looking forward to Volkswagen's offerings in EV. Especially if they actually do make the prices comparable to gas-powered vehicles.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Lost in Space
The National Drive Electric Week event I attended today in Allentown, PA was a lot of fun. I got to test drive a Jaguar iPace and ride in a Model 3 (Dual Motor). There were a couple of X's there, a Volt, and a few others, but the Model 3 was king of the show.
That Model 3, man. It zooms. The iPace felt like a car. A normal car, with a bit more electronics, and no gas engine to make noise. If I didn't already know about Tesla, I would have been very impressed, though not so much by the price tag.
Then I sat in a Model 3, and it felt like the future. Why can't all cars be like that? They could have been, if the major manufacturers didn't have their heads up their asses. It's like fun personified, wrapped in a bow, and put into something in the shape of a car.
Edited by Fighteer on Sep 22nd 2019 at 10:12:42 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Oh, bother.
Because the future is pricey. It's pretty tricky to actually make and ship these things without suffering profit losses. They'll figure it out eventually though.
Edited by M84 on Sep 22nd 2019 at 10:16:25 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Lost in Space
I don't know. There's got to be something more to it than that. The Model 3 is half the price of the iPace, with a longer range and better performance. Sure, Tesla has a big first mover advantage in the realm of high-end consumer EVs, but it shouldn't have. The only reason it has that advantage is because the auto industry is engaged in a massive Sunk Cost Fallacy for their business model.
Tesla is dragging the industry, kicking and screaming, into the future, but it's leaving them in its wake in the process. I truly hope that the industry can catch up, but I envision a time when most of the cars sold in the entire world will be Teslas. But by then we'll have full self-driving and robo-taxi fleets, and the idea of personal car ownership will be a thing of the past. These other companies will be competing in a race that Tesla already won, put its trophy from on the shelf, and started on the next. Frankly, what I worry about more than anything is that Tesla will falter in some way, and then we'll be set back 10 years at minimum.
Yes, I'm very optimistic, but I just sat in a Model 3 for maybe 20 minutes. I didn't even drive it. Something amazing is going on here.
Edited by Fighteer on Sep 22nd 2019 at 10:29:41 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Oh, bother.
It's not like Tesla is the only one doing the dragging. Competition is forcing them to be, well, competitive. Remember that Tesla isn't the only one interested in making EV or AV. And while they had a head start in terms of innovation, their competitors have the edge when it comes to everything else involved in making cars, and they are catching up in terms of innovation too.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Lost in Space
You say that, but I'm not seeing it yet. I don't have time to go into detail about the problems in the auto industry, which are many and varied, but everything about their business model pushes back against the idea of rapid innovation. As of yet, only a single manufacturer has committed to going full electric.
As just one example, I found out today (Cleantechnica) that the Porsche Taycan Turbo, whose zippy performance at Nurburgring was handily beat by the Model S Plaid, is deliberately tuned by the manufacturer to be just slightly under the performance of their flagship 4-door Panamera Turbo ICE vehicle. In other words, while they are making a fancy electric sports car, they don't want to upset the demand for their gas cars.
This little bit of cowardice could cost them dearly in reputation as they continue to demonstrate a lack of commitment to the EV market while Tesla's cheaper luxury sedans leave them in the dust performance-wise.
Yes, startups like Rivian and M-Byte are threatening to make inroads on Tesla's technology lead, but neither of them has sold a production car yet. Google, Amazon, and Waymo are working on self-driving technology, but have a bare fraction of Tesla's data to develop their AI algorithms.
I am concerned about the lack of competition, yes, but what concerns me even more is the continued lack of commitment on the part of nearly every major manufacturer. That can't last, and the economic ramifications will be serious. Either they drop all hope of being profitable and sink billions into R&D to catch up to where Tesla was ten years ago, or they watch their market share wither away until they go out of business completely.
Edited by Fighteer on Sep 22nd 2019 at 10:53:55 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Oh, bother.
Of course the industry is against rapid innovation. That's not the same thing as being against innovation entirely.
At the end of the day, a lot of people are still wary of EV and the price tag associated with it. And those people are still going to want cars to buy. No way will the industry abandon this market entirely to go full EV.
Edited by M84 on Sep 22nd 2019 at 10:58:25 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Lost in Space
It's their fatal flaw. Their sales model, their R&D model, their supply chain model... it's like a perfect storm. Bets on which major automaker folds first? And saying that lack of public information is driving lack of interest in EVs is kind of giving away the game, don't you think? The ICE industry can only win as long as it misleads people and sows ignorance... that cannot possibly last.
Edited by Fighteer on Sep 22nd 2019 at 11:00:25 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Oh, bother.
Personally I'm more interested in seeing how Volkswagen's plan to sell their EV at comparable prices to their gas vehicles works out. If it does work out well enough for Volkswagen, that could be a huge gamechanger in the industry.
And let's face it — the price tag is a pretty significant barrier for a lot of people. Hence why the robo-taxi (I'm assuming they will also be EV) thing might ultimately be the best course of action for Tesla.
Edited by M84 on Sep 22nd 2019 at 10:58:54 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
You'd need some pretty strong regulations to get automakers to install that sort of compliance technology in cars. And there's nothing special about EVs in this regard: ICVs have had software controllers for decades that could be programmed in a similar way.
Now, when we get full self-driving as a standard in all cars, there will undoubtedly be some form of communication system that helps all of them coordinate with each other to maximize the efficiency of travel. Self-driving vehicles will obey speed limits inherently (although we may find those limits raised for them, since they would be much safer at high speed than humans), and could be geo-fenced by this same system.
Edited by Fighteer on Sep 19th 2019 at 6:36:06 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"