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raziel365 Anka Aquila from The Far West Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#2251: May 25th 2022 at 8:52:34 AM

Yeah, relocation is only an alternative if you look at things purely from a numerical perspective. People however will not move far unless the opportunities from moving outweight the risk of poverty from doing so.

And no, death risk doesn't count, if anything falling into poverty is often treated as a Fate Worse than Death.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, maybe we should try to find the absolutes that tie us.
Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#2252: May 25th 2022 at 8:54:06 AM

There are areas I expect to be fully abandoned though. The Outer Banks up to Topsail Island in North Carolina is a great example of that. There's not really any way to save that region while maintaining any reason to be there. It's already being lost now, due to things like the sand eroding out from under those stilt houses.

Not Three Laws compliant.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2253: May 25th 2022 at 8:58:09 AM

Actually, the problem with relocation isn't just theoretical - here's an example of how in the Philippines, villages that were submerged by tectonic changes after an earthquake will stay put. Apparently they want to raise the floors of homes or houses on stilts, which is a poor man's "canal city" strategy essentially. Here's some discussion that the Philippine example isn't an exception, but more like the norm.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
raziel365 Anka Aquila from The Far West Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#2254: May 25th 2022 at 9:06:57 AM

It's not, the coast of Peru also has areas that suffer from soil liquefaction and people won't move from them even if they are hit by this problem again and again.

Like I said, unless the prospect of opportunity outweights the risk of falling into poverty -or further falling into poverty in some cases- people will stay put.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, maybe we should try to find the absolutes that tie us.
Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#2255: May 25th 2022 at 9:10:37 AM

I will admit the Outer Banks are kind of an outlier here. Because if the predictions are accurate, they'll be straight up gone. Like, the entire sandbar network could be destroyed by the tides if they're too high on a consistent basis.

Not Three Laws compliant.
raziel365 Anka Aquila from The Far West Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#2256: May 25th 2022 at 9:12:13 AM

So, the same problem that Dubai is going to face in the future?

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, maybe we should try to find the absolutes that tie us.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2257: May 25th 2022 at 9:13:14 AM

I wonder to which degree natural, non-climate mediated population changes - in particular, "rural flight" - are operating on the Outer Banks. That can be a confounding factor.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2258: May 25th 2022 at 9:13:37 AM

Look at Florida. Most of the US space infrastructure is there, and you can't just put a launch site on a tractor trailer and set it down a few miles up the road. That's hundreds of billions of dollars worth of investment.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#2259: May 25th 2022 at 9:14:36 AM

The area is predominately wealthy people and the people who work there. And the people who work on the Outer Banks tend to live in towns on the mainland. The biggest impact is a lot of people will lose their vacation homes with no recourse, because there's no insurance for, say, the tide literally floating your house out to sea. Which is happening increasingly often.

Not Three Laws compliant.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2260: May 25th 2022 at 9:18:40 AM

I think that Florida illustrates another aspect: While steady sea level rise can be coped with for a long time, a hurricane strike or other "episodic" disturbance might not be. So Cape Canaveral may stay put for 2m of sea level rise, but would it if it gets hit by Hurricane Haiyan?

(Hurricane Haiyan as in Typhoon Haiyan but in the Atlantic. I am using it as a comparison, since the Atlantic does not - yet - produce storms this strong)

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2261: May 25th 2022 at 9:41:05 AM

More to the point, orbital launch facilities have to be built on the coast because rockets cannot overfly land for safety reasons... unless you're in Russia or China and have vast tracts of land where nobody lives to drop the spent boosters on. Thus, sea level rise will always be a threat to them.

Edited by Fighteer on May 25th 2022 at 12:41:28 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
eagleoftheninth In the name of being honest from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
In the name of being honest
#2262: May 27th 2022 at 9:01:16 AM

Hakai Magazine: Arctic Shipping Routes Are Expanding Faster than Predicted.

    Article 
As the climate warms and sea ice melts, trans-Arctic shipping routes are becoming easier to navigate, a prospect that is enticing to freight companies. These routes can cut up to 9,000 kilometers off a one-way trip between East Asia and Europe compared with shipping through the Suez or Panama Canals—shortcuts that clip roughly 40 percent off the voyage.

According to a new study, the reality of routine trans-Arctic trade could come sooner than expected. Using satellite data on daily sea ice between 1979 and 2019, the researchers found that the safe navigation season for open-water vessels in the Arctic—trips that could be embarked upon without the help of icebreakers—is already significantly longer than climate models anticipated.

With a few exceptions, most shippers avoid the hostile Arctic Ocean. But according to Kuishuang Feng, an ecological economist at the University of Maryland who worked on the new study, observational data shows that rather than being commercially navigable by the middle of the century, as many climate models predict, several trans-Arctic routes are already navigable for large chunks of the year—and they have been for a while.

The team found that open-water ships could have been traveling through the Canadian Arctic Archipelago along the fabled Northwest Passage for more than two months of the year during the 2010s. Captains wanting to travel between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans along the Norwegian and Russian coasts could have done so for even longer. This Northeast Passage was open for around three months of each year—long enough for freight carriers to make at least two round trips between ports in East Asia and Europe without any assistance from icebreakers.

According to the researchers, these routes would have only been occasionally navigable in the 1980s, and depending on the climate projections used, they were open for around two to four times longer than expected in the 2010s.

Since 1979, the area of the Arctic that is safe for open-water vessels for 90 days of the year has increased by 35 percent, the researchers claim. With this, the routes these ships can take have changed. For instance, the best path along the Northwest Passage has shifted northward from the Amundsen Gulf to a shorter route through the Parry Channel, one that was predicted to be unnavigable until the mid-21st century.

Siri Veland, a human geographer at Norce, a Norwegian research center, says that while the finding that trans-Arctic shipping routes can be used now is not new—limited commercial trips operated over the past decade by Russian, Chinese, and Danish shipping companies, among others, is proof enough of that—“it does seem that [the researchers] have picked up a few windows for navigability that maybe have been off people’s radar.”

Veland cautions, however, that “when you have the benefit of hindsight [the Arctic] looks a lot more navigable than when you are trying to forecast.” The problem that navigators face is interannual sea ice variability. Year to year, there is a high variability in the exact number of days with low sea ice, particularly at either end of the summer. This makes sending ships through the Arctic very risky, and Veland does not expect this variability to decrease for another decade or two.

But Feng did find that since 2004 open-water vessels have been able to travel through the Arctic for the whole of September. And one of his collaborators in China who has been talking to commercial shipping companies discovered that they are already going out with ships and icebreakers and testing the routes. “They just try to explore the possibilities,” Feng says.


Reuters from last November: A father and son’s Ice Age plot to slow Siberian thaw.

    Article 
A father and son in remote Siberia are trying to engineer an ice age ecosystem. Peer-reviewed scientific papers show they are slowing global warming.

In one of the planet’s coldest places, 130 km south of Russia’s Arctic coast, scientist Sergey Zimov can find no sign of permafrost as global warming permeates Siberia’s soil.

As everything from mammoth bones to ancient vegetation frozen inside it for millennia thaws and decomposes, it now threatens to release vast amounts of greenhouse gases.

Zimov, who has studied permafrost from his scientific base in the diamond-producing Yakutia region for decades, is seeing the effects of climate change in real time.

Driving a thin metal pole metres into the Siberian turf, where temperatures are rising at more than three times the world average, with barely any force, the 66-year-old is matter-of-fact.

“This is one of the coldest places on earth and there is no permafrost,” he says. “Methane has never increased in the atmosphere at the speed it is today ... I think this is linked to our permafrost.”

Permafrost covers 65% of Russia’s landmass and about a quarter of the northern landmass. Scientists say that greenhouse gas emissions from its thaw could eventually match or even exceed the European Union’s industrial emissions due to the sheer volume of decaying organic matter.

Meanwhile permafrost emissions, which are seen as naturally occurring, are not counted against government pledges aimed at curbing emissions or in the spotlight at the U.N. climate talks. Zimov, with his white beard and cigarette, ignored orders to leave the Arctic when the Soviet Union collapsed and instead found funding to keep the Northeast Science Station near the part-abandoned town of Chersky operating.

Citing data from a U.S.-managed network of global monitoring stations, Zimov says he now believes the COVID-19 pandemic has shown that permafrost has begun to release greenhouse gases.

Despite factories scaling back activity worldwide during the pandemic which also dramatically slowed global transport, Zimov says the concentration of methane and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has been growing at a faster rate.

Whole cities sit on permafrost and its thawing could cost Russia 7 trillion roubles ($100 billion) in damage by 2050 if the rate of warming continues, scientists say.

Built on the assumption that the permafrost would never thaw, many homes, pipelines and roads in Russia’s far north and east are now sinking and increasingly in need of repair.

Ice Age animals

Zimov wants to slow the thaw in one area of Yakutia by populating a nature reserve called the Pleistocene Park with large herbivores including bison, horses and camels.

Such animals trample the snow, making it much more compact so the winter cold can get through to the ground, rather than it acting as a thick insulating blanket.

Zimov and his son Nikita began introducing animals into the fenced park in 1996 and have so far relocated around 200 of different species, which they say are making the permafrost colder compared with other areas.

Bison were trucked and shipped this summer from Denmark, along the Northern Sea Route, past polar bears and walruses and through weeks-long storms, before their ship finally turned into the mouth of the Kolyma River towards their new home some 6,000 kilometres to the east.

The Zimovs' surreal plan for geo-engineering a cooler future has extended to offering a home for mammoths, which other scientists hope to resurrect from extinction with genetic techniques, in order to mimic the region’s ecosystem during the last ice age that ended 11,700 years ago.

A paper published in Nature's Scientific Reports last year, where both Zimovs were listed as authors, showed that the animals in Pleistocene Park had reduced the average snow depth by half, and the average annual soil temperature by 1.9 degrees Celsius, with an even bigger drop in winter and spring.

More work is needed to determine if such “unconventional” methods might be an effective climate change mitigation strategy but the density of animals in Pleistocene Park – 114 individuals per square kilometre – should be feasible on a pan-Arctic scale, it said.

And global-scale models suggest introducing big herbivores onto the tundra could stop 37% of Arctic permafrost from thawing, the paper said.

Permathaw?

Nikita Zimov, Sergey’s son, was walking in the shallows of the river Kolyma at Duvanny Yar in September when he fished out a mammoth tusk and tooth. Such finds have been common for years in Yakutia and particularly by rivers where the water erodes the permafrost.

Three hours by boat from Chersky, the river bank provides a cross-section of the thaw, with a thick sheet of exposed ice melting and dripping below layers of dense black earth containing small grass roots.

“If you take the weight of all these roots and decaying organics in the permafrost from Yakutia alone, you'd find the weight was more than the land-based biomass of the planet,” Nikita says.

Scientists say that on average, the world has warmed one degree in the last century, while in Yakutia over the last 50 years, the temperature has risen three degrees.

The older Zimov says he has seen for himself how winters have grown shorter and milder, while Alexander Fedorov, deputy director of the Melnikov Permafrost Institute in Yakutsk, says he no longer has to wear fur clothing during the coldest months.

But addressing permafrost emissions, like fire and other so-called natural emissions, presents a challenge because they are not fully accounted for in climate models or international agreements, scientists say.

“The difficulty is the quantity,” says Chris Burn, a professor at Carleton University and president of the International Permafrost Association.

“One or two percent of permafrost carbon is equivalent to total global emissions for a year.” Scientists estimate that permafrost in the Northern Hemisphere contains about 1.5 trillion tons of carbon, about twice as much as is currently in the atmosphere, or about three times as much as in all of the trees and plants on earth.

Nikita says there is no single solution to global warming. “We’re working to prove that these ecosystems will help in the fight, but, of course, our efforts alone are not enough.”

Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2263: Jun 7th 2022 at 5:06:11 AM

Past terrestrial hydroclimate sensitivity controlled by Earth system feedbacks A.K.A a lot of precipitation changes the last time greenhouse gases were as high as today weren't a direct effect of the greenhouse gases, but rather an indirect effect of glacial ice loss and vegetation expansion in continents prompted by greenhouse gases.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#2264: Jun 12th 2022 at 8:00:13 AM

India isn’t ready for a deadly combination of heat and humidity: Recent heat wave has seen “wet-bulb” temperatures rise to potentially fatal levels

Yes, it has begun: the death zones are coming. And not just to faraway places like India and Iran: US states like Arkansas, Missouri, and Iowa are also at risk here.

Republicans may want to take notice.

Optimism is a duty.
raziel365 Anka Aquila from The Far West Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#2265: Jun 12th 2022 at 8:06:37 AM

Having seen what the Republicans are up to thus far, they would rather die than admit they were wrong to any degree.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, maybe we should try to find the absolutes that tie us.
Steven (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#2266: Jun 12th 2022 at 8:06:39 AM

You're assuming they actually give a shit.

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#2267: Jun 12th 2022 at 8:13:23 AM

Republicans are going to care, specifically when the evidence is unavoidable and there's no ambiguity at all.

At which point they will pivot to eco-fascism and blame it on minorities, they'll say we have to gun down any climate refugees who approach our borders.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
MorningStar1337 Like reflections in the glass! from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
Like reflections in the glass!
#2268: Jun 12th 2022 at 8:14:10 AM

[up][up][up][up] My inner cynic thinks that they will, but only to formulate exit strategies with their golden parachutes.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Jun 12th 2022 at 8:14:34 AM

TitanJump Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Singularity
#2269: Jun 12th 2022 at 8:15:17 AM

"Death zones"?

That said, it is not that grave yet, as it at least got detected and haven't gotten ignored like in some other scenarios.

Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#2270: Jun 12th 2022 at 8:15:52 AM

A lot of these people are the same ones who legalized the sale of raw milk and celebrated by drinking it...and at no point bothered to check why selling raw milk wasn't legal in most circumstances. Sounds like the people who did that had a really terrible few days and then tried to avoid talking about it.

Not Three Laws compliant.
DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#2271: Jun 12th 2022 at 8:15:56 AM

They'll just crank up the air conditioning. Carbon emissions are just fake facts, you know?

Might not work for the corn, though.

Edited by DeMarquis on Jun 12th 2022 at 11:16:22 AM

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#2272: Jun 12th 2022 at 9:13:09 AM

Death zones are basically what is described in the article: an area where heat and humidity combine to create conditions where you'll die if you spend long times outside, because you can no longer cool off any more.

It doesn't just apply to humans either. Animals will suffer greatly from this too.

Optimism is a duty.
Steven (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#2273: Jun 12th 2022 at 9:17:02 AM

I think Arizona or another state in that area suffered a similar condition last year; it was so unbearably hot that even at night, the temperatures were in the 80s, making it impossible for the human body to cool down.

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2274: Jun 12th 2022 at 9:19:15 AM

Even air conditioning won't be enough in some of those areas because most residential A/C systems can only reduce the temperature by a maximum of 40°F or so below ambient, assuming they don't exceed their own operating conditions.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 12th 2022 at 12:20:19 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#2275: Jun 12th 2022 at 7:00:54 PM

Iowa seems a bit far north for death zones...


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