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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
x4 Doesn't surprise me. The Republicans really want the poor to die out from this.
Dude, did you just say "So what" about people's rights? I'm sorry, but what the fuck man?
Edited by ScubaWolf on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:37:06 PM
"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Telling people “so what?” when the subject matter is their own human rights is maybe not the best thing to do, dude.
Edit: This is in response to Fighteer’s last comment
Edited by smokeycut on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:34:23 PM
She/Her Pronouns
Thank you. ![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
(^_^
Lost in Space
And as a result of that attitude (among others), we got Donald Trump, who absolutely is not in favor of trans rights. Good work.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Before this goes any further, people have different lines in the sand. This thread has had too many occurrences of those turning into multi-page dogpiles back and forth, so - no.
I'm not sure if this conversation is now supposed to be about dissecting HRC's stance on trans rights, or her potential impact at the DNC. I would suggest the first is getting into deraily, and people are talking past each other. The second is probably better suited, if we can manage to stay on it.
And, again, please have some better attitudes when talking to people who have reasonable concerns about certain stances.
Oh, bother.
It's kind of odd that more people here didn't react more strongly to the news that Trump's campaign is considering targeting transgender people to boost their popularity.
Disgusted, but not surprised
She/Her Pronouns
... Yeah, thank you Nombre. I don't know how I'd compose another message that wouldn't break the rules of respectfulness anyway.
I was asleep, and when I saw it we were several pages away.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:39:03 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Figure of Hourai
We don't expect more of Trump. If anything, it's mostly surprising that he hadn't yet.
Avatar Source
Fighteer, I voted for her. My state went to her.
But she’s not running anymore, and when she says that it’s understandable that people want to systematically remove my rights, I think it’s perfectly fine for every trans person to call her out for it and to not want her around anymore.
Also, Trump has been targeting us from the beginning. All that would change is him taking it up another notch. It’s not good, but it hasn’t been good at all, so...
Edited by smokeycut on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:40:16 PM
Oh, bother.
Except he already did, starting with that military ban.
Figure of Hourai
I mean as a campaigning platform.
Lost in Space
Look, I'm not trying to pick on you, Azure. Really.
I'm saying that the Democratic Party has a nasty habit of cannibalizing itself on single issues, completely ignoring the larger picture. It isn't just about LGBT rights, although that's a frequent tentpole for the problem.
You can check all the boxes except for the specific box that someone has a personal stake in, and you are excommunicate.
There are no perfect candidates, and the enemy of the perfect cannot be the good, or we get Donald Trump.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
She/Her Pronouns
So, what do you propose? That I ignore people saying its reasonable to remove my rights? In the sense of unity?
I'm not dividing the party, Fighteer. She is. If she seems to be fine with not holding solidarity with me and people like me, why must I have solidarity with her?
I'd say we move this to LGBTQ Rights and America, except we already discussed this there...
Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:44:29 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Oh, bother.
TBF, HRC isn't still saying transphobic stuff. She's not J.K. Rowling.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Figure of Hourai
Once again, she's not even running for anything right now, is there any particular reason to avoid criticism?
Honestly, I don't see what having her give a speech is meant to achieve. Not universally popular (or even close to it) amongst the party, extremely unpopular outside of it... seems oddly cruel to trot someone out to give a speech that will only have negative general reception.
Unless she's just there to be a lightning rod for convention hate.
Avatar Source
A procrastination in of itself
Hillary Clinton isn’t the candidate anymore, that defence of “no perfect candidate” expired for her on November 9th 2016.
Fighteer I would ask you to consider how you’d feel if someone told you that you were absurd for disliking a political figure who wanted to target you or someone you care about due to something they have no control over. I’d hope that then you can understand why “so what” is such a cruel sentiment.
We’re not telling people they can’t dislike Kasich over his opposition to women’s rights, why does Hillary get a pass on her opposition to trans rights?
Edited by Silasw on Aug 8th 2020 at 5:49:46 PM
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Oh, bother.
She's pretty popular within the party and she's on good terms with Biden. It'd be more surprising if she didn't give a speech.
Edited by M84 on Aug 9th 2020 at 1:46:04 AM
Disgusted, but not surprised
If that's the reason why, it's already working.
Edited by ScubaWolf on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:47:37 PM
"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Jupiterian Local
The numbers I posted show her being pretty stable among Democrats, independents, and Republicans except for a slight bump in disapproval immediately after the 2016 election, when she was seen as having screwed the pooch and lost what should have been an easy win, before the various layers of bullshit surrounding the election was known.
That said: I am skeptical that Hillary Clinton making a speech at a Democratic event in support of a Democratic candidate is a bad call because non-Democrats don't like her. The party national conventions have always been cheerleading events designed to increase engagement among the party faithful. Putting her on stage is meant to get people who like her excited about Joe Biden and eager to vote for him in November. It's going to do a lot more of that than it is going to turn off independents and fence-sitters who don't know how they feel about Biden but really hate Clinton.
To put it another way: if you're on the fence about Biden but like Clinton, a Clinton speech is very likely to get you to vote for Biden, because you like Clinton and she's throwing herself behind Biden. If you're on the fence about Biden but dislike Clinton, then Clinton giving a speech in support of Biden is unlikely to be the final nail in the coffin because "former Democratic candidate supports current Democratic candidate" is very much a dog-bites-man story. (That is to say, it's not really newsworthy — it's normal and expected.)
So yeah. I find it a really hard sell to suggest that Clinton shouldn't be publically and vocally supporting Biden.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Lost in Space
Political solidarity is a two-way street and requires compromise. This isn't about LGBT rights specifically. When Hillary refused to stand on Medicare for All, she got excoriated, despite having her own plan that could have led there. When she refused to specifically support a $15 minimum wage, instead offering a more nuanced plan, she got eviscerated.
We're all on the same team here, or supposed to be.
Also, the middle has hated Hillary for a long time, but not because of her positions on trans rights. Rather, the middle bought into all the Republican propaganda and added misogyny for bonus points.
Edited by Fighteer on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:48:57 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
The right to live peaceably as a trans person (or any other civil rights issue) is not a "meet in the middle" position. In that way it differs from Medicare, or minimum wage.
She/Her Pronouns
I can't see how I'm on the same team as those who would be willing to smile and wave while applying laws against my human rights. If you think we're "supposed to be"...well, I don't know what to tell you. Just "why?"
Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:53:29 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Oh, bother.
Then I guess it's a good thing that Biden's platform involves protecting LGBTQ+ rights.
Disgusted, but not surprised
A procrastination in of itself
X5 I’m not actually opposed to her doing one speech, we’ve got far asshole figures appearing (fucking Kasich), but it should be kept to that, she’s too politically toxic to be an effective campaign surrogate (she’d probably be good as a fundraising one) and Biden’s campaign need to be aware of that.
Treat her the same way Kasich and Bernie are being treated, not the way Obama is being treated.
I’m pretty sure it is for a number of posters here. Your assertion that it’s wrong to be upset at the invitation of someone who opposes your rights seems very narrow, honestly, would you be this opposed if it was a different figure and a different group’s rights?
Edited by Silasw on Aug 8th 2020 at 5:56:03 PM
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
She was late to supporting Queer rights, she outright supported all sorts of bigoted laws on the topic in the 90s before suddenly claiming that she didn't all along, and then she starts saying the same things I could just as easily hear from Graham Lineham.
Edit: Replying to
Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:33:39 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer