Hoops: That is ALSO what I hope to figure out.

Bitty: ah yeah, thanks for clarifying. It happening after and being semi-caused by the J-Team moving to Paldea probably makes the most sense then.

What if the Paldean School has ties to the Templar School? Perhaps either remaining unknown for a while or as an accidental discovery, a Schoolkid or two goes missing, sends out a distress signal, and then the first big battle begins?

I do have a Templar base already set up in Paldea, add in Gabriel investigating the area and looking for ideas to weaponize, so I've got at least one reason set up if we need any.

But I figured that going to Paldea was just something that was going to happen, everyone would want to go.

As for counterattack, I'm good whenever for whatever.

I'm flexible regarding when and how the move to Paldea happens in-roleplay. This applies for both of the characters I have introduced so far.

The same applies for the School counterattack plotline.

Edited by AnotherMan on Mar 5th 2023 at 12:50:34 PM

So just looking back in this discussion, one of the things that got tossed around for reasons why the team would go to Paldea is as stress testers for the league. So there could be a thing where perhaps the team gets a formal invitation. I actually think Dune wrote some stuff with Geeta a month or so ago, so that connection exists. Other reasons that were discussed could be to do with the treasures of ruin, perhaps someone could be looking into the lore behind those. There could also be a request to one of the more scientifically minded team members to study paradox mons.

Oh and, I'm good to go whenever on counterattack.

Edited by theoncominghoop on Mar 5th 2023 at 12:51:17 PM

Once again I like "Geeta wants us to be stress testers for the league"

Just spitballing here. What if the School or any of its scientists get interested in harvesting genetic data from the paradox mons and want to see if it can be applied to humans, then the J-Team comes in while PEFE stress-tests for the Paldean League and they see this as a threat to their continued activities there (and with the raid on Sinnoh still being fresh on their minds). Thus, giving them reason to counterattack both to protect themselves and to retaliate.

I have a few plots connected and a few plots independent of this. The Independent ones count on the School being so distracted by their counterattack that it leaves their facilities and their allies unprotected and prone to being raided/snooped by smaller groups. The connected plots involve the school raid, but haven't been plotted out past that.

Edited by MasterJayAM on Mar 5th 2023 at 9:24:57 PM

I have one solid plan of a Thing To Do In Paldea that seems to be mostly separate from the School stuff. It does maybe rely on us finding out more canon information on some worldbuilding.

As for the J-Team coming over, challenging the Paldean League as more experienced challengers sounds like a good excuse to get them in the region to learn about local threats.

I'd rather Neo-Sinnoh end with a bang rather than a whimper like PMD-R did because the J-Team just meandered into Paldea like how we just meandered into Kanjoh-2 a little over a decade ago, so it feels like it would make more sense for the Counterattack to happen beforehand and/or be the inciting incident.

Like, I'm fine with some people moving over to Paldea even right now but I'd rather not have the Treasure Hunt start and/or the bulk of the J-Team move over until after the Counterattack since I've got pre-Paldea plans pretty closely linked to it and its aftermath.

(Some I could possibly do beforehand but then we'd just be getting the lamer, suboptimal version.)

But I guess that leads into the question, when do we want to do the Counterattack? What needs to be done before that can happen?

Edited by rmctagg09 on Mar 5th 2023 at 8:54:16 AM

JG: I DID already have Victor use Paradox DNA for Justinian so that kind of thing could be a factor maybe. The School would probably be interested in Area Zero as a resource even if we the players aren't peeking in there just yet.

Tagg: I might have some people visit Paldea early then, and yeah establishing more with the Counteratttack is good

Edited by Umbramatic on Mar 5th 2023 at 8:17:22 AM

After some overnight thought... Admittedly, I am beginning to regret suggesting this plan as a full-RP thing that the plot hinges on. It was originally a small idea amongst a select few people, for us to do whenever we had the energy and time, because it seemed fun. However, I saw the opportunity to open it up to everyone... and now I am feeling a lot of pressure due to people waiting on me and others to be ready. Even beyond the plans that need to be concluded beforehand, I don't know if or when I'll have the motivation or inspiration to put it into motion, because I am in a different mental state than I was three months ago.

So in clear terms, I don't want it to be one big event anymore. My suggestion is to take each encounter at your own pace; in-context, the uptick in direct attacks against the J-Team would certainly be identifiable as a pattern, but the narrative won't have to hinge on one unavailable person anymore.

I'm good with that, patterns also leave everyone a lot of room for adapting to specific events, and the shock of being informed secondhand of said events.

Edited by EchoingSilence on Mar 6th 2023 at 3:10:53 PM

Yeah that's entirely fair Bitty. I can probably do what i had planned as a more isolated mini-event as well.

Ok, so.

I suppose I should say first of all that if it turns out I jumped the gun on how things are going to ultimately go writing this post, I apologize, I should've been more trusting, but the amount of stuff that has happened over the past year into 2023 RPwise with character death has left me a bit on edge where trust is concerned, which is why I asked on Discord if that was all to the scene before bothering to type this up.

But as it stands:

Not gonna lie, I feel a bit betrayed, I feel like we had a nice talk on tone only to be told to go eat a dick, to pardon my Kalosian, so I felt so apoplectic reading the post that it literally gave me a headache I'm still nursing as I'm composing.

I'm not going to bother asking to have the post changed or whatever because I'm pretty sure that was almost certainly planned long before we had that conversation back in the fall.

Since I feel like it'll probably be brought up, it's not about me thinking it's bad quality, because I don't, as a post it was fine, it's something that I feel has compounded since Vana's death, the Reshiram argument that led into that conversation, and Rhoda and Haru's deaths.

We had a conversation about tone and what we wanted in WAAPT as I've mentioned, and for it to just continue on that way as it seems to be going just feels like, well. That's shit, and I think I'm starting to reach my limit.

That's all.

Edited by rmctagg09 on Mar 7th 2023 at 12:28:58 PM

I feel like this did not need to be everyone's problem. It's a healthy habit to get into to directly talk about your issues, to the person/people you're having issues with.

Like, I was already having a bad day when Neo's death happened. I was in the middle of an anxiety attack, and it made it worse. But how I fixed it was by talking to the people involved, not dropping a paragraphs-long D!Post about feeling betrayed by the whole community when only three people were responsible.

That said, I'm in the corner of those three people. Even not knowing what I know now, this was built up for months, even years. There was ample time to say "hey, if Neo's about to die for real, I'd really rather that not happen".

She didn't show any sign of trying to be a heroic character, either. This isn't hero death, it's "child gets caught in the cycle of exactly what this whole arc is about, she just happens to be spunky" death. If the plot is about taking down a eugenicist organization, you're gonna see the full scope of what that entails.

But to be honest? You're not the most sterling example of how to portray murder in this RP. I'm not even talking about a certain incident we don't talk about anymore, I'm talking about Chiyo, who killed multiple people onscreen immediately before you decided to make her your secondary PC. Self defense, sure, but it's still death, and that set the tone for how this arc would be.

Edited by BittersweetNSour on Mar 8th 2023 at 8:21:38 AM

So I have a mix of feelings on this. For a conversation about this specific event, I do agree it would be better done in private. For general tone, however, if we're going to have that conversation, public feels better. Less about this specific event as the event being part of a larger thing.

I won't deny I am on the personal side of "this tone is a bit much for me" even if my personal way to approach it is more checking out of plotlines where it's gonna happen. I do think that like, if this is a conversation about a specific event, the specific event was well telegraphed and did come with a CW which was a good note.

Admittedly what I got out of the tone conversation back in fall was kind of "we're gonna keep doing this tone" and while I think I have exceptions I do prefer low death overall in media so that's more like... a good reason to check out in a reading sense and something I'll do since at least, while death might be a valid part of a story or a good way to show off the depths of what an organization can do it's not necessarily always what I want to read so... well, CW help with that I guess I'll say but in a broader sense I don't think like... I'm gonna be expected to do this kind of thing if I don't want to but I can respect the feeling that it's getting hard to avoid if that's not the kind of content you want to see. And at least for me, if we want to deescalate or go in a better direction or something from here, I think we should dig deeper into tone than like... some people saying "the amount of this content is too much for me" and others saying "the amount of this content is what should be expected."

I will also say, though, that this isn't the first time I've heard the comment about not being a fan of sympathetic character death while including unsympathetic character death more frequently in your writing, Tagg, but you can probably talk to that better. I don't think Chiyo's doing that now as of what I remember of the last raid but I do think it's a fair thing (if also maybe a criticism that could have also been brought up in private prior, unless it was, in which case, fair.)

Ultimately, though, I don't think leaving it at some people saying "This isn't the tone I want" and others saying "This fits the tone of the arc" is going to settle it because like... well, we did go deeper last time but, well, I'm not sure how to since it seems like whenever this comes up it's a discussion of "these character deaths are meaningful and drive plots forward or appeal to an emotion or feeling I want" vs "these character deaths feel meaningless and don't affect me in the way either you or I want" and like... I don't think either person wants to hear "rework your plans to move away from this thing that's making some people uncomfy" or "stop making a big deal about this and not trusting us to write a good story with this element in it." Like, this kind of feels like it's at an impasse but I wish we could find some way to get past it?

Edited by CorvusAtrox on Mar 8th 2023 at 12:29:27 PM

First of all I feel the need to say to Herbert that this whole thing isn't really directed at him at all, but anyway:

Within character death, as Crow said, there's a big difference between the killing of unsympathetic or otherwise nameless characters (Even if I feel you shouldn't get super willy-nilly with that either), and sympathetic ones, but especially ones that we've gotten to know over a decent period of time. That goes doubly for characters whose deaths would have a major effect on many other characters, which wouldn't be true for Neo, but can be true of others.

What purpose does the death of Schoolchildren serve? To show the School is evil?

We already know the School is evil, they killed off most of Ludmilla's class during Alola and basically every Schoolchild introduced knows at least one person who got liquidated.

(And as for Chiyo's kill count, you'll notice she hasn't actually killed anyone since the big raid, which was in and out of universe more than a year since Chiyo Gaiden. That was intentional.)

As for why I chose the Discussion thread instead of DMs, well:

1) I didn't feel like getting the run-around or otherwise getting my concerns blown off, which I didn't have faith wasn't going to happen considering how things went in the instances I mentioned in my last post.

and

2) While the post was the catalyst, it's not just about the post, it's a community thing, so I think everyone needs to be involved, because like Crow said, I'd rather not have to hash out this conversation again and again.

Part of me wonders if morale might be the better phrase to use than tone in this case, since it's not about the presence of character death. Because I feel that how things have been lately, it's creating an atmosphere where people feel obligated to have their School characters have the Curse and/or die, rather than it being a choice. (It being in my opinion kinda morale depressing aside)

Edited by rmctagg09 on Mar 8th 2023 at 5:11:23 AM

So while doing loads of wiki work because I've been hyperfixating on it, I noticed a character who was kind of initially meant to be Small Role, Big Impact but I thought, "hey I could do more with this one" because while that Small Role, Big Impact involved her being killed off in the AU, she is till alive and well in the OU and I was like "I can do things with this". So she'll show up again... probably in Paldea, maybe later? Depends on pacing, motivation, and my own impulse control. Anyway here is an actual proper profile for her:

A little bit of Monica in my life

Name: Monica Cero

Age: 26

Gender: Cis Female

Ethnicity: Sinn-Paldean

Appearance: Picture!◊

Organization Ties: Holon Researchers

Region of origin: Sinnoh

Backstory: A friendly, sweet woman, Monica was motivated to be a Pokemon researcher when she received a Trapinch and Gible eggs as a gift. Since then she has done important research in Holon and other areas, and is a bit of a nerd for both science and pop culture. She is close friends with her research colleague Jackie despite their contrasting personalities, though her team is better optimized for combat than Jackie's.

She is related to Umbra, Duolis and Pent somehow but is unaware of anything that may have happened to her in any alternate timeline.

Mons:

Species: Garchomp

Nickname: Seishirou

Gender: Male

Ability: Sand Veil

Personality/Bio: The grumpy one, rarely in a good mood. Vicious in battle.

Species: Flygon

Nickname: Fuuma

Gender: Male

Ability: Levitate

Personality/Bio: More cheery and snarky than Seishirou. Prone to occasional bouts of vocal synesthesia.

Species: Glimmora

Nickname: Phobos

Gender: Male

Ability: Toxic Debris

Personality/Bio: Cackling an cruel... or at least that's what he likes you to think

Species: Musharna

Nickname: Genaro

Gender: Male

Ability: Synchronize

Personality/Bio: Spaced out and inattentive out of battle... but steely and hyperfocused in battle.

Species: White Florges

Nickname: April

Gender: Female

Ability: Flower Veil

Personality/Bio: The valley girl cheerleader type of the team. Notably vain.

Species: Sensu Oricorio

Nickname: Mineko

Gender: Female

Ability: Dancer

Personality/Bio: Wise, sagely type, but prone to bouts of CHANNELING THE UNDEAD

I'm going through my wiki pages and seeing which characters need to get cross-refrenced to Toyhou.se and/or need illustrations or expanded profiles so look forward to that

And as I said, here is another older character getting an expanded profile!

umu

Name: Nero Claudius

Age: ??? (looks 20 something)

Gender: Female

Ethnicity: White as a human

Appearance: Pic!◊ (as a human; Oricorio form is a normal Baile Oricorio)

Organization Ties: N/A

Region of origin: Alola

Backstory: Hey it's Nero, the Oricorio with a suspicious similarity to a certain Fate characyter. After meeting the J-Team and gaining a Pokemon-to-human bow from Ersatz she fucked off on her own for a bit. After meeting a strange Growlithe on a remote mountain, she decided to use her ability to become human to become a Fire-type Pokemon Trainer, and has been slowly accruing Fire types since. Her latest jaunt has been to Paldea, to investigate its arts...

Mons:

Species: Hisuian Growlithe (Starter)

Nickname: Jeanne

Gender: Female

Ability: Flash Fire

Personality/Bio: Tries to be serious, aggressive, and crude on the outside... but can't resist being a good doggo.

Species: Magby

Nickname: Margarita

Gender: Female

Ability: Flame Body

Personality/Bio: Laid back, easygoing, even in a battle. Takes it slow.

Species: Numel

Nickname: Paloma

Gender: Female

Ability: Simple

Personality/Bio: Even more aggressive than Jeanne. Generally a grump.

Species: Capsakid

Nickname: Cubanelle

Gender: Male

Ability: Chlorophyll

Personality/Bio: Exceedingly cheery, sweet, friendly. Also somewhat dumb/naive.

Edited by Umbramatic on Mar 28th 2023 at 7:49:12 AM

[[Rethought a lot, gonna save this for later when we're more active for a deeper discussion.]]

Edited by EchoingSilence on Apr 3rd 2023 at 1:59:31 PM

[to be reworked and reposted later]

Edited by BittersweetNSour on Apr 2nd 2023 at 12:42:59 PM

An Important Announcement

After a discussion following the D!Post I made a bit over a month ago, I realized that my actions meant to address my mental health in regards to the RP ended up hurting people I did not intend to. While I have apologized to Every and Aster directly, I would again like to apologize to Herbert for causing him distress when he had nothing to do with the issues I was having at the time.

As a result of the discussion, I now have what I believe may be a better way to express my own mental health needs and what accommodations I think will help me, along with what I plan to do on my end to handle things going forward.

While I am speaking for my own issues here, if other people have their own specific things they'd like to discuss, they can also talk about them and I will follow the same rules that I suggest here. So to continue:

Onscreen death that Tagg needs CWed:

• Named, sympathetic if not outright heroic characters, but especially children. (Those would, of course, be labeled "child death" or a synonym) I'd also like a warning ahead of time, whether public or private, especially if it's a child death

While I don't need to know ahead of time if the child death is part of a flashback (C Ws suffice then), and it's not necessary if child death is just mentioned or discussed, the warning definitely stands if it takes place during the RP's "present" (TSed scenarios will also count as "present" for the purposes of warnings)

It might seem a bit weird for me to say this, considering what I've written before, but I'm a bit more sensitive to these things than I used to be, and when it's just me writing, I have a bit more control over what's going to happen.

I don't know if this will last until after the School stuff is finally done, because the increased amount of it lately is what activated it, but it is what I want for the time being. This list may have more added to it as time goes on, so it is by no means the be all end all.

As for the VBT stuff:

• Posts involving it should be CWed. I would also ask that I'd be told about it ahead of time.
• As part of that, do not have your characters do a VBT plot or have backstories involved with it without my express approval, because people have done that in the past and it activates my trigger
• If someone asks about the VBT minutiae and the Issue Report proves insufficient, I would rather they be directed to me because the times others have done it have proved inaccurate

Contrasting what I said with the general CW, the VBT stuff is definitely how things are going to go from now on, even after the School arc ends.

While I am on the subject of that though, Bitty's D!Post, or rather, the latter portion of it, since it sent me into a triggered state that led to more miscommunication? And essentially derailed a conversation meant to be about mental health into one about writing quality, which it was never about in the first place? That wasn't cool, and it's why I haven't been in #j-team-hq for more than a month.

I also felt a way about the statement in #j-team-hq that "no one agreed with me" after I expressed issues with how things were going. While that was rude in and of itself, in the context of the fact it was made while I was in the midst of apologizing to Every and seeking a better understanding of my own mental health and how other people felt about my actions, made it feel worse.

Also, if I have an issue with something I would prefer not to be told any synonym of "It will be fine", because no one can predict the future and it may very well turn out as "not fine" for me.

But, going back to what I said about mental health, I feel that going forward if something in-RP's affecting a person's mental health and they state it publicly, it's best not to argue about whether or not the thing in question is well written. Apart from the subjective nature of what "well written" is, that just makes things overly stressful for everyone, obfuscates the true issue, and most often leads to the scenario of “the person who is best at lit analysis gets to decide what the feelings are.”

I've told you this before wrt to all of this, but will keep that in mind. Especially the bit about "things will be fine."

Also, this has gotten me thinking about my own triggers and how to best phrase them. I don't think I have the spoons to express them in full now but will try and get something out in that vein before the weekend's done. I've felt like a few of mine have been hard to define but I might have a better grasp on them now, even if some of them aren't gonna come up much.

Edited by CorvusAtrox on Apr 20th 2023 at 10:27:46 AM

I wasn't personally planning anything revolving around the stuff you mentioned but I'll definitely keep all this in mind. I admit this whole thing has also contributed to me avoiding #j-team-hq for longer than I originally intended.

Edited by Umbramatic on Apr 20th 2023 at 10:24:36 AM

That... is a very valuable insight into the situation, and I appreciate the clarity. Understanding that it was a mental health issue, rather than simply a grievance about the direction of the RP as it was coming across as, is a very useful (and healthy) thing for avoiding this happening in the future.

I likewise apologize for the harshness of my responses afterwards, not knowing what was going on behind the scenes. From a non-mod perspective, the situation seemed like something that nobody wanted to deal with, and therefore that it was left on a sour note, rather than seeking a positive resolution. That doesn't excuse my attitude, but I would like to offer that insight for the sake of improving mod-to-community communication when something like this crops up.

Tomorrow most likely, I'll remake that D!Post I blanked, going over some near-future plans that may be better off warned about. For the most part, I don't think they hit the triggers you listed, but they do contribute to the darker tone of the School arc, so it's stuff worth mentioning, along with how I'm planning to mitigate it so that it doesn't lead to complete despair for the characters involved.

Edited by BittersweetNSour on Apr 20th 2023 at 12:09:53 PM