Buffy the Vampire Slayer

We never actually see the fight between Spike and Dead-Slayer #1 (they Chinese one). He wins, and that's really all that matters, isn't it?

The fight with Nikki Wood, however, was pretty even until the end, when Nikki died.

Spike seems to be a natural in a fight. And seems to enjoy them. Alternatively, Angelus sees the inherent risk in fights (there's a chance he could lose), and prefers to break his target on a psychological level so his target is so broken they cannot put up a fight when Angelus comes to end their suffering.

As to how good of a fighter Angelus actually is... His fight with Faith is iffy due to Faith throwing the fight (so she'd get bitten). Although, if Faith is to be believed, she wasn't going to win that one without the drug anyway. And it's also debatable as to whether or not Angelus had the upper hand before his soul returned at the end of Season 2...

Given that Buffy was about to strike the killing blow before his soul returned, I don't think he could be said to have had the upper hand there. :P

And we did see the fight between Spike and the Chinese Slayer; it was in Fool for Love, and he won that one about the way he won the fight with Nikki, they were fighting and then he won, with no real trick to it.

Faith was also still very rusty, though- having not actually trained in combat during her tenure in prison.

So we did see the fight... I was basing my info on the Angel episode Darla, which shows the aftermath. I should probably re-watch season 5 of Buffy sometime soon.

It should also be noted that Spike had Nikki Wood dead to rights in their fight prior to her death on the subway, as displayed in Lies My Parents Told Me, even though he lets her go.

^That's true, I had forgotten about that.

But as for the boxer rebellion fight, Spike was on the defensive until an explosion blew out one of the windows beside her and knocked her to the ground. And in the subway fight, she had him pinned on his back, then they went through a tunnel, he can see in the dark, she can't, so Spike wins.

"Blind luck" was an exaggeration on my part, but his victories had more to do with the fact that he was crazy enough to go after a Slayer. The "strongest fighter" remarks in season 7 I completely disagree with. Spike attacked Faith in one of the last episodes in the Summers house and she kicked his ass. Angel is at least as strong as him also.

Yeah, but Angel wasn't with the Scoobies by season 7. Anyways Spike is one hell of a fighter, Angel and spike's fight in Destiny is just...it needs to be seen to actually believe it happened.

That wasn't really much of a fight. They traded blows and then he left because he just wanted to see where Buffy was. He really had no desire to take on Faith.

Though when it comes to those four - Buffy, Faith, Angel and Spike - I tend to rank them as:

Buffy > Angel > Spike = Faith.

Of course any fight between these four will be intense and difficult. They're all just around each other's level in terms of physical ability and skill. But it seems clear to me that Buffy reigns supreme.

Well that is until she steps out of the mid-tier zone and tries to take on the Top Tiers. Then, as the wonderful and beautiful and splendiferous Glory said, "A slayer?? Oh god, please don't tell me I was fighting a vampire slayer! How unbelievably common!"

Oh and Glory is the best Big Bad.

But yeah I noticed as both Buffy and Angel progressed they had to bring in stronger and stronge ropponents until our brave heroes really could do nothing against the Big Bad in a fair fight.

edited 13th Jan '11 1:48:41 PM by Nikkolas

Buffy > Angel > Spike = Faith.

Mine is Buffy = Spike > Angel >=< Faith

Angel and Faith kinda drift around positions. Spike and Buffy generally tend to give each other a run for their money. But Spike's unambiguously beaten Angel in an all-out brawl. And bludgeoned him with a crucifix, to boot.

edited 13th Jan '11 4:32:53 PM by TobiasDrake

I would agree with that assessment, and add Faith >= Buffy at the end.

Buffy has issues with killing non-demons. And this is a good thing, but when it comes down to fights with Faith, she doesn't have the killer instinct Faith does. Faith has only lost fights with Buffy due to outside additions to the fights (the Scooby gang helping Buffy). After Faith's Heel–Face Turn, while they have no real interest in fighting each other, I still think if a fight between the two came about, Faith would still be ok with killing Buffy, whereas the reverse isn't true.

Buffy is "better" due to her morality scale, but in a fight, that morality hinders more than helps.

Note: The lack of killer instinct is, essentially, the reason why Faith did so poorly in her fights with Angelus. She refused to kill him because doing so would kill Angel. And since Angel is the only one who sought to redeem Faith, she felt obligated to bring Angelus in alive so his soul could be put back.

edited 13th Jan '11 6:27:33 PM by Swish

Well, that and the fact that she threw the fight with Angelus to drug him with spiked blood.

edited 13th Jan '11 6:38:25 PM by TobiasDrake

Yes, but there were two fights prior to that one that Faith probably would have won if she was interested in staking Angelus rather than keeping him alive.

The only one I recall was the Beast wrecking her while Angelus watched. What was the second?

Buffy may not have the killer instinct but she has the experience edge. She's been doing this much longer than Faith has and that plays a very big factor.

I also would submit Faith doesn't have the same killer instinct anymore. The fact is Faith never wanted to be a killer. She was confused and hurt and her killings while under the Mayor are nothing more than a daughter seeking her father(figure)'s approval.

Once she checked herself into prison she came out far more stable and far less predisposed to hurt a human being.

And speaking of Faith and redemption, I fucking hated Sanctuary. That episode made Buffy out to be a bitch when, before this, Buffy had been the biggest voice in the "Faith can be redeemed" camp. She was advocating Faith's rehabilitation before Angel even met the rogue Slayer.

Speaking of which, Fuffy is totally canon. I made this video to support my OTP with what I think is some pretty solid evidence.

edited 13th Jan '11 8:10:34 PM by Nikkolas

I also would submit Faith doesn't have the same killer instinct anymore. The fact is Faith never wanted to be a killer. She was confused and hurt and her killings while under the Mayor are nothing more than a daughter seeking her father(figure)'s approval.

Once she checked herself into prison she came out far more stable and far less predisposed to hurt a human being.

And speaking of Faith and redemption, I fucking hated Sanctuary. That episode made Buffy out to be a bitch when, before this, Buffy had been the biggest voice in the "Faith can be redeemed" camp. She was advocating Faith's rehabilitation before Angel even met the rogue Slayer.

Oh cool, another F/B shipper :D

But I have to disagree with you on two points;

One- Before her redemption incident, Faith was ver psychotic- a borderline psychopath, even. Angel may have helped to pull her out of it, but that's how she was in Season 3.

Two- Sanctuary ws actualy quite good about this. Fact was, Buffy might have believed that Faith was redeemable before- but then she shot Angel with a poisoned arrow.

A poison that could only be cured by the blood of a Slayer.

Or, in other words- she crossed a line, to Buffy's Point Of View. You wanna fight Buffy? Fine, she doesn't care, she'll still believe you can be redeemed. But you do not hurt Angel just to give yourself an advantage in the fight the next day or so.

Eventually, she semi-forgave Faith for her actions. But by then, the damage was done.

Yes that is the tragic thing. By the time Faith is stable enough to maintain any sort of serious relationship with Buffy, the damage was done.

The spark they kindled in Season 3 was buried under too much resentmen. Their friendship in Season 7 was cordial at best and nothing like the very strong bond they had in S3.

Although I thought they could have done some interesting things in Season 8, if they had decided to try and repair their relationship.

I mean, the Giles-Faith mentor/student relationship was great, but not as fun as a Buffy/Faith relationship of any type would have been.

I'd say the fact that Spike beat Angel in an all out brawl, then puppet Angel beat Spike up a few episodes later, should tell you that the writers weren't too concerned with keeping characters' respective fighting abilities consistent.

But-but-but- Angel was a puppet! He couldn't lose :<

Puppet Angel was lashing out in a mild "RAR ANGRY" while Spike wasn't exactly trying to kill him. That was far from the climactic "We're doing this, and we're not stopping doing this until one of us doesn't get back up," showdown that Destiny's fight was.

That was more of a "I'm gonna wail on you a couple times to take out my pent up aggressions and then everybody goes back to business." Spike has a lot of experience with those after Buffy.

edited 14th Jan '11 4:23:10 PM by TobiasDrake

Ya know, Buffy has some amazing music.

I got Season 2 on DVD a couple months ago and Becoming Part II has to be the best finale in the series. IMO anyway.

edited 14th Jan '11 11:23:51 PM by Nikkolas

Also, Spike was laughing his ass off. Angel was deadly serious while Spike was to busy laughing off at the idea of A BLOODY PUPPET!

Plus Angel had a significant size advantage to boot. How, exactly, are you supposed to punch a puppet that's climbing on you? If it's still as strong as Angel but extremely difficult to actually strike or grapple, being a puppet isn't a handicap, it's an advantage.

Precisely.

Besides, it's always more (like this things tend to be) about who's really motivated.

Ah. But Puppet Angel wasn't as strong as Regular Angel.

He was a bloody puppet.

In that, he had stuffed hands.

He couldn't put the same force behind everything, because he didn't have the same amount of mass behind him.

He was a magic puppet. We have no idea how it works. He was strong enough to heft and wield a broadsword just fine.