Super Smash Bros.

Rex would be a good choice (and I still suggest Malos as a Shulk Echo to accompany him).

I feel Malos is way too tall compared to shulk to be an echo.

Most echoes are physically the same to their original counterpart. Shulk and Malos are way too different shape wise IMO

No one is ever allowed to complain about a character's size ever again. Just shrink Malos.

Edited by LordVatek on Sep 15th 2019 at 10:41:59 AM

Their actual bodyshapes have to have a minute difference from the start of when they would be created as an Echo. In Lucina's case, she was already a costume for quite a while(changing her size) before the decision is made. He's more like a Isabelle case, where Malos would just be a regular clone(or semi-clone) instead. That takes a lot less work overall than redoing the entire model instead of redoing the animations immediately. Clones with clearly different heights can port over animations still rather easily.

Why would they shrink him if he's just taller than the dude?

Is he actually that much taller?

Why not just Ganonfy him and just be a bigger shulk that hits harder. That really wouldn't fly as DLC but it's a start.

Compared to Rex he is huge but i don't know his exact height

Edited by fasoman1996 on Sep 15th 2019 at 11:49:08 AM

You wouldn't even have to shrink him by much. Lucina is a little bit shorter than Marth (enough so as to affect her hitboxes) but she's still classified as an Echo Fighter.

According to the official height chart he's about 195 cm, or 6'4. So, tall, especially compared to Shulk's 157 cm / 5'6, but not a monster height difference that makes an Echo infeasible.

Rex, meanwhile, doesn't even break 150 centimeters or 5 feet.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Sep 15th 2019 at 10:54:40 AM

Lucina was shrunk due to being a costume first. She was not shrunk for the sake of being an Echo. There's actual steps to how it happened. Expecting the steps to get skipped isn't likely. Again, see Isabelle for why the order of events matter.

This isn't a similar situation. Malos would've had to be a costume at some point before the decision to make him an Echo. Otherwise the comparison does not work.

The differences have to be a few pixels at most for them to be the same bodyshape. So that's unfeasible. You're talking about a far bigger difference than that.

Edited by Irene on Sep 15th 2019 at 9:54:52 AM

...That makes no sense.

If they want to change Malos' size to make him a clone, they'll do it. Lucina might have started as a costume but the idea that it's a requirement to have their size changed is completely nonsensical.

Clone =/= Echo. They're highly different.

If they want to make Malos a clone(not echo), they do a lot less work. They just can import a model and start using animations with smaller tweaks.

It makes perfect sense. Lucina was not going to be playable from the start, which is a key difference that is being missed here. She was a costume first and foremost, having her model changed to fit Marth's. She was barely tweaked near the end of development to have a few pixel differences to help them have different hurtboxes, and other than that, the mechanic was changed to help her be a bit more unique(she has no sweetspot).

You're expecting them to do way more work than needed for the sake of it. I'll keep noting Isabelle as proof of why they will not change Malos' bodyshape when it wastes a ton of work. What they will do is use Shulk's model and animations to help get started on Malos while keeping him a regular clone/semi-clone because it takes the least amount of time development-wise. I said this the same way with how Isabelle would be playable, which is why she was never once going to be an Echo. Same thing here. He's not a realistic Echo.

Edited by Irene on Sep 15th 2019 at 10:01:59 AM

Echo is a completely meaningless moniker so I call them clones because that's what they are.

My point is that it's an imaginary limitation when they've proven time and again that they will do what they want if they want to do it. If they deem Malos worthy to be an "echo", then they will do it regardless of the fact that he's a different bodyshape.

Edited by LordVatek on Sep 15th 2019 at 11:07:53 AM

Sakurai has said as much, that the actual line between Echo and non-Echo is pretty arbitrary and up to his discretion. It was in the context of Ken having quite a few differences from Ryu but still being classified as an Echo.

You mean how they refused to make Isabelle an Echo(and no, it's not a meaningless moniker. They are actually different from your regular clone in multiple ways, including their official labels, how they appear on the select screen, and rules for creation) because she does not have the same bodyshape as Villager? Just like Pichu didn't with Pikachu? Or Ganondorf with Falcon? Or in this case, Malos does not have the same one with Shulk?

It's not meaningless. It's a hard that it is how it works. They don't waste development time on redoing an entire model for no good reason. Malos can easily be a clone(but not the separate Echo itself) without any problems. I suggest you learn about development at this point. Because you're completely wrong on how Echoes work.

But I'll repeat exactly why I knew Isabelle would not be an Echo if playable; she had an inherently different bodyshape. This means they would have to redo her entire model from scratch to fit it with Villager, and then have to redo any extra animations to fit her characterization(taunts, etc). So while they waste time on a meaningless remodel, they don't get the game done fast enough. So instead they took the smart way, which is directly using her proper model while porting over Villager's moveset to a model that is similar, but tweaked it as fast as possible, then added extra stuff that fit her better. If somehow Isabelle wasn't a clone of Villager in some way, she'd still somewhat use him as a quick base for animations while they made tons of new stuff for her. Things like helping movement and such, since they have a wireframe that takes very little modification from Villager to work with. Either way, they took the least amount of time by making her a clone(or arguably semi-clone) instead of an Echo.

Malos is in the same situation. Now, if he was a costume for Shulk early on, he would be an easy Echo, just like Lucina. But he's not a costume. This already eliminates the first key step in his Echo chances. He's simply too different a bodyshape for them to waste time. Making him a basic clone(again, like Pichu) is far easier to begin with, and way more realistic. That is, if he has a reasonable chance to be playable. Maybe, maybe not. Elma could still be the one in the best position if anyone.

He's already proven that it's not as arbitrary as people think. If they don't have the same bodyshape from the start, it's not happening. Literally said for why Isabelle was not an Echo. That's definitely not arbitrary whatsoever. That's a very clear statement of development factors.

I'd like another Xenoblade character too, but if Malos somehow has a chance, he'd be a clone or unique at best. He's just another Isabelle... minus the popularity, anyway.

Edited by Irene on Sep 15th 2019 at 10:25:49 AM

You keep citing Isabelle but her bodyshape is way more different from Villager than Malos' is from Shulk's. You could easily make Malos the same size as Shulk and still have him look like himself.

It's the same situation. He's significantly taller than him. That's a different bodyshape no matter how you slice it. The difference has to be a few pixels at most(like 3-5, if we want to give a reasonable estimate). I'll also explain briefly on why the arbitrary phrasing he uses can be confusing;

What he is saying that anybody with the same bodyshape(I.E. Dark Pit, Ken) easily can be an Echo, but that doesn't mean he has to make them an Echo. That's the arbitrary difference. They still have the hard requirement of same bodyshape(with barely any model difference) first. Regardless of that, he can choose to make them a clone instead(like what he did with Dr. Mario in 4 and Ultimate, which is pretty arbitrary since he's no less an Echo than Ken or Chrom, who are the only two with actual real differences outside of Final Smashes at most). In fact, Dr. Mario is probably not an Echo simply because he was officially a clone in Melee, so he just keeps his original term. That actually is logical, even if arbitrary.

Another similar thing is that all Echoes are a type of Clone. All Clones cannot be Echoes. One is just a "special kind of clone".

That said, Ken and Dr. Mario are the only actual cases of an arbitrary use of the term, since they both were created just like an Echo, but have enough differences to be different from a typical one(which is barely different from the original, with maybe a move or two at most, and only taunts often being unique too).

Just look at that fighting game where Konami, Hudson Soft and Takara fought each other. For the record, Hudson Soft is now absorbed by Konami and Takara is now merged with Tomy. Also I feel sad at people not knowing Bloody Roar, people can now shitpost about Furry Ryu/Furry Terry.

RE: Clones For Sakurai the clones are essentially using the same model and skeletons. They can change some of the animation for sure but usually just some. Even Ken shares the same skeleton. From what I heard Dr. Mario was actually thoroughly redid in Ultimate, with new skeleton.

Edited by Ookamikun on Sep 16th 2019 at 12:19:20 AM

I never heard of anything of that with Dr. Mario. Though that really does explain him not being an Echo if true. What I did hear is that they literally applied custom equipment to him to make him vastly different from Mario(though if you think about it, he has more attribute differences from Ken too).

It's really strange at some point, honestly.

Sakurai literally said that they used the term "echo" in this game to represent fighters that would have been called clones in the past.

He even cites Ken as being the "original echo", which pretty much confirms that echo just = clone.

On top of that, Isabelle isnt even close to being an echo due to having two different specials and completely different normals

Actually, he specifically said they made Isabelle not an Echo because of her bodyshape and because it didn't fit her personality. So it isn't simply a matter of moveset happening to be different. It's different because she couldn't be an Echo. Not the other way around. The fact it's different isn't saying much anyway, as Ken already shows. When the only consistent rule for an Echo is "same bodyshape", there's really nothing more than arbitrary/fan-made rules otherwise.

When did he say that exactly about Echoes? He did say "these are new characters we are calling Echoes" during the presentation that showed Daisy, but that's a completely different thing. Did I miss an article or something? Source Gaming isn't posting the newer articles, so it's easy to miss one for me.

The Ken thing doesn't honestly mean much nor correlates to anything other than a cute joke about how Ken originally had the same moveset with no real differences as Ryu. They were literal palette swaps in the first game, and then he got new moves and minor differences later on. And got major differences too as time went on. It really doesn't add to the statement either. It's the same kind of joke like how Richter and Simon are joked about "who is the real echo?" Tongue-in-cheek stuff or references to past games.

I would generally define an Echo as a fighter with a very similar-but not necessarily identical-moveset. This is a pretty broad brush, admittedly, covering Young Link and Toon Link for example. But I think it's the best way to look at it.

Echoes literally have a hard designation of the little E and are next to a specific character that use them as a base. More or less, we have that as what might as well be another hard rule(the other being the same bodyshape). I do agree they can be pretty arbitrary, but nothing will change that the only Echoes at this time officially are Ken, Richter, Daisy, Dark Pit, Dark Samus, and Lucina. Why others don't apply? Who knows. If what the user said about Dr. Mario is true, then that makes a lot of sense. Since it'd be a "different bodyshape" situation. I however really would like that cited, cause that's hard to swallow. He looks the same as the other games too.

I believe people who dug through the models saw Ken and Ryu being practically the same as far as models goes.

Well, yeah, they're Echoes. XD Joking aside, it makes sense they have used almost identical models in Street Fighter games. I mean, only his moveset and aesthetics have constantly evolved to begin with.

...But how does that relate to Dr. Mario having a different bodyshape? Where'd you hear that? That'd be neat to know.

Edited by Irene on Sep 15th 2019 at 1:01:37 PM

Oh I just heard about it.

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