Naruto

I'd have to add the education system was pretty shit in its teaching methods so they had to work harder for less. So they worked harder for garbage gains.

Now shit they had to learn under team leaders is pretty easily learned by their kids from teachers, because the education system improved massively. Slimcoder even points out how the timeskip Naruto learned jack under Jiraiya. So while hard work is fine, when the means meant to teach you are crap said hard work amounts to nothing.

He mastered a forbidden technique in a night and could only do so through his massive chakra reserves from his Uzumaki heritage and Jinchuriki status, won his fight against Neji with Kyuubi chakra, mastered Rasenshuriken through multiple shadow clones which most people can't use, Senjutsu which again requires huge chakra reserves and he won his fight against Kurama with assistance from his mother. Naruto trains his ass off, yes, but he also had tremendous advantages and connections(Jiraiya wouldn't have trained him if he wasn't Minato's son, that's for sure).

Which is why I also pointed out he had unique powers and a special destiny, which are two of four requirements to be worth anything. Which Naruto also was.

@slimcoder

He did learn a wind style technique. The FRS is that.

And he technically had to earn the Kyuubi cloak as well, that definitely wasn't free. He could've destroyed himself attaining that power.

Yeah but he didn’t bother to learn anything else after that.

Like when Asuma showed him how to coat his elemental type onto his kunai, he never does anything with that knowledge.

It’s especially wasted knowing that Sasuke commonly coats his lighting onto his sword & Naruto learning the wind version of that is a perfect parallel to the two.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 3rd 2018 at 5:30:51 AM

No, Naruto learned additional moves with his toads and they worked on controlling the Kyuubi chakra, which helped him immensely later.

I mean, I think Kishi dropped the ball by not giving Naruto a real fight until Kakuzu, but seriously, he used Jiraiya's signature "drop the summon on the enemy's head" move in the war arc.

Asuma uses special knives for that purpose. Asuma was showing Naruto how to channel wind chakra which he incorporated into the training for the Rasenshuriken.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 3rd 2018 at 5:37:55 AM

Asuma's knives being special just makes it work better, it isn't a requirement to use it. Maybe it was anime only but Danzo had a few different techniques where he put wind techniques onto ordinary weapons.

Edited by doineedaname on Jul 3rd 2018 at 8:49:43 AM

We've seen that infusing nature chakra can be done with any weapon, I at least remember Kakashi infusing his lightning chakra with kunai and shuriken.

Naruto did bust his ass off to kearn the Shadow Clone jutsu, but that was in the course of one night. And that's an incredibly high level technique. Doing it in such a short time frame is not hard work, that's natural advantages and talent.

Most of Naruto's achievements are too fantastic to be the product of hard work. He shows very little improvement over the timeskip and lacks a variety of techniques, instead mastering high level techniques in short periods by either using his advantages or taking shortcuts. We haven't seen him learning things the proper way and applying himself until he succeeded.

Hell, after the timeskip he still hasn't learned to make a Rasengan without a clone's help. And he appears to get over this handicap through the other power-ups he obtains, rather than by practicing the regular Rasengan enough.

Naruto can put in hard work, but he only ever does so for brief periods of time with a specific focus. And even then he usually has a variety of benefits that reduce the work he has to put in.

"It doesn't matter that he worked hard to master the shadow clone because he did it quickly?" That's a classic goalpost shift. Basically, you just invented a 'proper way' to decide Naruto doesn't use it...even though his shortcut is using shadow clones to minimize the training time, IE: being efficient in how he trains. The idea he showed no improvement over the timeskip is also completely false. we saw that in his exam with Kakashi and when he deflects Chiyo, an enraged high level ninja from trying to kill Kakashi.

And Naruto is, by the end, making Rasengans by himself in base. Nothing suggests power ups had anything to do with that.

Like I said: "I'm going to make up a proper way to bash Naruto for not doing it" seems to be the argument.

I don’t consider being a marginally better combatant as a very good improvement after years of training especially when his fight with Kakashi ended with just spoiling the guys favorite book.

Compared to Sasuke’s everything from learning how to use a sword & the new various ways he can use Chidori & general lighting style chakra, it makes it look like Naruto has learned absolute shit.

Now if he learned to incorporate Kurama’s general chakra into his arsenal we’d be talking a different story but he doesn’t do that till the end of the story.

All in all, Naruto is a pretty boring-ass ninja.

You mean when they were failing to do anything and had to instead use spoilers to make Kakashi drop his guard to block them out?

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jul 3rd 2018 at 10:35:24 AM

Naruto only fought Sasuke the first time when he couldn't barely stand. Not really a good measure of his improvement to Sasuke's own

Kakashi had to resort to using his sharingan at that point and one thing you can say for the series is Kakashi was introduced as one of the best ninja alive and stayed such for the duration of the series.

No I take everything they’ve done & compare it though even then Naruto didn’t do much of anything impressive in the Sasori arc. Fuck Sakura had a better showing than him.

And as much as Rancid Sauce sucks his showings against Deidara & Itachi shows that Orochimaru has done good one his word on making Sauce strong.

Jiraiya relatively failed Naruto.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 3rd 2018 at 10:45:23 AM

Naruto ambushed Deidara, a guy capable of evading all of Team Guy at once and nearly caved his face in. Sakura had a 'better showing' because she had an extended fight with an Akatsuki member and the large majority of that fight, Chiyo was literally using her as a puppet and she benefited immensely from having been able to manufacture an antidote to her opponent's trump which Sasori couldn't possibly know about.

Unlike Orochimaru, Jiraiya wasn't unethically drugging his student to make him stronger, and helped him a lot with the Kyubi power, improving his rasengan and taught him a technique that drops a gigantic toad right on top of the enemy's head, in addition to improving his fundamentals significantly if he could repel someone like Chiyo.

He really shouldn’t be learning the fundamentals at his age.

Instead of mastering his craft he’s just catching up on shit he should already know of since grade-school.

Plus I never remember him using toads much. Only few instances is duiring the Pain battle though that’s more bringing in the Calvary so the only real instance of toad summoning was the ten-tails fight.

Also I consider him learning how to do a Rasengan without a clone an actual improvement than just making it bigger.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 3rd 2018 at 11:12:26 AM

x5

Reminder that Kakashi had trained his Sharigan over the the time skip (at the very least) and had somewhat learned how to use Kamui.

Him being forced to use his Sharigan is no joke. Besides, by the time Naruto fights Kakuzu, he's probably slightly ahead of Kakashi (at least the Kakashi of that arc), but definitely firmly ahead by the time of Pain.

Before the time skip, he was nothing to Kakashi. And with two bouts of training, he all but leaps past him.

Edited by hardcorefakes on Jul 3rd 2018 at 1:15:50 PM

I'm not moving the goal post. One night is a laughably small period of time to be called hard work.

A student who crams for one night isn't generally considered a hard worker compared to one who studies all semester. It's just factually less work than building on something for weeks or months of work.

I have no problem with Naruto being more efficient, but A) that doesn't show off hard work and B) his efficiency still comes from advantages that other people don't have.

I also never claimed he made no improvement - that's putting words in my mouth. I said he had little improvement - two and a half years and he has a bigger Rasengan, better hand to hand and improved tool usage. That really pales compared to the upgrades he gets in a much shorter window post-timeskip.

We're outright told what the correct process for learning a Rasengan is. I haven't made it up at all. Naruto got stuck on the correct way, cane up with a solution - and 2 and a half years later still hadn't learned to form it without this assistance.

The reason I think that his ability to make proper Rasengans comes from a power-up is because it coicides with his power ups. We learn from Part I that Kyuubi chakra can help form a Rasengan. Than the Sai arc establishes that Naruto still can't do it on his own. Then we see that Sage Mode also lets him do it. Then the chakra cloak. We see him work on those things, we never see him practice the basic Rasengan to learn to do it without a clone and he only seems to be able to do it after receiving multiple power-ups to enable that, including showing the ability to use some Kurama powers in base.

The propet way refers to 'not using shortcuts that aren't available to others'. I bet a lot more people would be capable of Naruto's 'hard work' if they had the benefits he did.

You've put words in my mouth and you're being plain rude.

Saying that he takes shortcuts I think is unfair - a lot of Naruto's success comes from a combination of hard work and ingenuity (like figuring out a new way to perform the Rasengan and creating the Rasenshuriken).

That's not to say he doesn't have an advantage - he does - but it's one that's exceptionally hard to leverage and requires him to try and find a workaround. Both of his most important powerups - Sage Mode and Tamed Junchuriki mode - required him to directly overcome his most difficult obstacles to him personally and he did it with flying colours (respectively they required him to master his emotions so he could remain calm and befriend a being of living hate).

Also, it should be noted that he did make gains with Jiraya. He got significantly better at regular ninja work, taijutsu etc.

If we're looking at the series as a whole, while having a bloodline limit or other advantage (tailed beast, Hiden Jutsu) is really handy, you can definitely become really powerful without any of those things. At least four, possibly five Hokage got that position without any serious natural advantages (Tobirama had no Kekkai Genkai but he was born with incredible chakra so you might discount him).

None of the Sannin, for example, had any bloodline abilities when they were born. Neither do two of the five Kage during the war arc.

It's only the very tippy-top of the pyramid (what we might call the Six Paths tier - the Otsotsukis, Juubito, Ten-Tails Junchuriki Madara, SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke) that really requires you to bring a kekkai genkai or some serious Tailed Beast support or go home.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 4th 2018 at 1:23:23 PM

Naruto had three advantages, not counting being the reincarnation of Asura, namely being a Jinchuriki, an Uzumaki and his parents. His massive chakra reserves from the first two allowed him shortcuts to the multiple shadow clone jutsu, which allowed him to master rasengan and wind release, not to mention sage mode, where he can use shadow clones to gather chakra. Kushina assisted him in getting Kurama's chakra, Minato deliberately use a seal that would allow Kurama's chakra to leak and help Naruto(which is also an Uzumaki technique) and allowed Naruto to become Jiraiya's student. Not to say he didn't work hard, but just saying that a kid with rich parents will have it easier than a kid living in poverty.

It was pointed out Naruto had worked to the point of exhaustion and put in an incredible amount of effort to master a difficult technique. That is hard work, no matter how you slice it. There is no other advantage here that others didn't save diligence.

He is also stronger, faster, has more jutsu with the toads and a better commanding of the Kyuubi's power. Facts are facts, I'm afraid.

Because he has issues with chakra control. Later on, he fixes it. Your point?

He was using a rasengan in base and Sage Mode, which at the time could not be used in the conjunction with the Kyubi's power. Facts, again, are facts.

This is amusing coming from someone who thinks 'whore' is an appropriate appellation to female characters he dislikes.

Again with that?

Are you fucking serious dude?

Also he never had more jutsu’s with toads. He could only just summon them, that’s it. As well as he should have imrpoved his chakra control over the course of several years, the fact he hasn’t is just sad & he was explicitly forbidden from using Kurama’s powers. So he never had any actual control over the fox’s power till the end of the manga.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 4th 2018 at 11:27:59 AM

Tobirama was a man who created countless ninjutsus from anyone to Naruto, the Fourth Hokage, and Orochimaru used, and could use powerful water jutsus without sources of water. His versatility and being more rational than the more irrational Madara made him viewed as a better successor to the First over Madara even to the Uchihas.

So he definitely wouldn't count.

And the Kages did haves a legacy as they were either students of previous Kages, taught by a Kages student, or related to them, which applies to all of them. So anyone connected to a previous Kage or their students have a chance to be Hokage and no one else does.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jul 4th 2018 at 11:42:54 AM

Naruto was using Kurama's power more than once (he was using it against Kakuzu for one, and with his mass Rasenshuriken training), and they explicitly confirmed he and Naruto practiced with that. The issue was when you got too much into undoing the seal, or when Naruto's emotions got carried away

And what do you call using the dame jutsu Jiraiya used to drop a toad right on an enemy? That's definitely a new jutsu he got with him. And Naruto did improve his chakra control, just not perfectly.

"So he definitely wouldn't count."

None of the things you mentioned had anything to do with whether or not he had a Kekkai Genkai. He did the vast majority of those things just being a normal (albeit smart with an excellent chakra reserve) Ninja. Which was my original point.

"And the Kages did haves a legacy as they were either students of previous Kages, taught by a Kages student, or related to them, which applies to all of them. So anyone connected to a previous Kage or their students have a chance to be Hokage and no one else does."

People with excellent teachers will probably do better than people without them, but it should also be noted that to become a student of someone you have to pass their equivalent of the bell test and Hokage will almost certainly have the hardest tests and will therefore only the best students will pass them.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 4th 2018 at 9:49:50 AM

Come to think of it, were Jiraiya and Orochimaru from any significant bloodline? I know Sakura was supposed to be the normal one who became great, but her greatness was very much an Informed Ability.