Line #54 YMMV/TerminatorDarkFate


1	* AccidentalAesop:
2	** As Grace's HeroicRROD can attest to... kids, remember to drink water and stay hydrated.
3	** One that has been brought up in more critical reviews is that ''Dark Fate'' accidentally inverts the message of ''T2''. In the previous movie, the prevailing Aesop was that all human life is precious and machines are only as bad as their programming. [[spoiler:This movie makes the accidental case that even the most important person on Earth is ultimately expendable and replaceable and that A.I. will always be bad for one reason or another.]]
4	* AngstWhatAngst: Dani, due to her acclimatizing to being TheChosenOne way too quickly, especially when you consider that she happily greets her uncle and is shockingly calm while explaining to him that her father and brother (his brother and nephew) died. John, on the other hand generally felt like ItSucksToBeTheChosenOne and took at least a decade to be the leader of the resistance and even then he was resisting it until at least ''Salvation''.
5	* AssPull: See the [[AssPull/{{Terminator}} franchise page]].
6	* AudienceAlienatingPremise: The film's status as an {{Unreboot}} that ignores ''Rise of the Machines'', ''Salvation'', and ''Genisys'' would suggest that Cameron and Miller understood that these sequels were disliked to varying degrees, but the execution would suggest they didn't understand ''why''. A significant number of people were apathetic or outright put off from this movie due to a combination of factors: increased focus on [[ReplacementScrappy new characters the fanbase didn't care for]], [[ItsTheSameNowItSucks continuing the trend]] of being a HappyEndingOverride for ''Film/Terminator2JudgmentDay'' that made prior sequels reviled, and fans [[IKnewIt correctly predicting]] that [[spoiler:John Connor would be killed off]] before leaks and early release confirmed it. All of these issues are cited by analysts as what contributed to the movie flopping at the box office.
7	* SugarWiki/AwesomeMusic:
8	** The trailer's use of a cover of Music/{{Bjork}}'s "Hunter". It would have been easy to just play on the audience's sense of nostalgia by re-using the original Terminator theme, but this helps make the film seem more like its own thing, especially since Arnold Schwarzenegger appears in only one shot. It's also dark, somber, and haunting, giving the trailer an air of mystery.
9	** The second trailer one-ups this by including a mashup of the classic ''Terminator'' theme and "[[AwesomeMusic/TwentyEightDaysLater In the House — In a Heartbeat]]".
10	** [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzpjRScImPE The main theme]] of the film itself -- it, of course, being {{Music/Junkie XL}}'s take on the traditional ''Terminator'' theme -- being a composite of the first two films' iterations of the theme[[note]]as with ''T2'' and onward, its main drum beat has five notes (while the first film had six), but also now includes the two extra notes from the first film[[/note]] and incorporating guitar acoustics, giving an undeniable Mexican/western vibe while also sounding more [[TearJerker tragic than any other version]]; reflecting off of the film's EndOfAnAge status: [[spoiler:with the deaths of John Connor, Skynet, and its Terminators.]]
11	* BaseBreakingCharacter:
12	** The Rev-9 being able to imitate human behavior most effectively of all the killer robots thus far has split audiences between those who think this makes it the most effective infiltrator [[TheyLookJustLikeEveryoneElse in its being unremarkable]] and those who think it removes the UnintentionalUncannyValley factor that made its predecessors disturbing and scary.
13	** Dani. Her fans found her a sympathetic and likable successor to John and especially enjoyed her relationship with Grace. Her detractors found her to be a ReplacementScrappy who just came out of nowhere and hasn't done anything to earn the role of being the new savior of humanity.
14	* BrokenBase: The main point of contention surrounding the film can essentially be boiled down to [[spoiler:John Connor's death and the inevitability of a war between humans and machines]]. Either it means the entire franchise (or at least the first two films, depending [[CanonDiscontinuity on who]] [[FanonDiscontinuity you're asking]]) has been AllForNothing and sends a cynical message that [[spoiler:John's only purpose was to destroy Skynet and he had outlived his purpose/life once Skynet was destroyed]] as well as another YouCantFightFate message from ''3'', or it was necessary to depict the message that AsLongAsThereIsEvil, there will always be a hero to combat it.
15	* CaptainObviousReveal: [[spoiler:That ''Dani'' is the heroic leader of the resistance, not the mother of that person, was clearly meant to be a huge twist, but most audience members assumed that right off the bat]].
16	* ContestedSequel: While critics received it about as well as ''[=T3=]'' and much better than any of the other sequels, the film still proved to be controversial with the fanbase, for many of the same reasons as ''Film/Terminator3RiseOfTheMachines'' and ''Film/TerminatorGenisys''. Like the previous sequels, ''Dark Fate'' [[ItsTheSameNowItSucks retreads certain plot points from the first two films]], has a HappyEndingOverride for ''Judgement Day'', completely drops the ScrewDestiny message of that film and instead pushes a YouCantFightFate message by once again declaring that Judgement Day is inevitable, and [[spoiler:suddenly kills off a main character[[note]]Sarah in ''[=T3=]'', John in both ''Genisys'' and this film[[/note]]]].
17	* DirectorDisplacement: Creator/JamesCameron's return to the franchise was significantly hyped up, but he was only the executive producer and was merely one of several people who helped write the story. His name is as big as director Tim Miller's on the first poster and stands above the latter, but his actual involvement is subject to debate (besides, he was also busy guiding Creator/RobertRodriguez on ''Film/AlitaBattleAngel'' and filming the ''Film/{{Avatar}}'' sequel when ''Dark Fate'' was being filmed).
18	* FandomRivalry:
19	** With fans of ''Film/Terminator3RiseOfTheMachines'' over which is the better (or less bad) sequel to T2.
20	** Those same fans also debate whether the Rev-9 would beat the T-X in a fight. Fans of ''T3'' cite the T-X's onboard weapons as an advantage the Rev-9 can't match, while ''Dark Fate'' fans cite the Rev-9's superior durability and ability to completely separate its endoskeleton and liquid metal into two separate entities, something the T-X can't do because its skeleton and liquid metal are permanently attached to each other.
21	* FanNickname: Several critics and fans called it variations of "The Best ''Terminator 3'' yet", in reference to every ''Terminator'' sequel after ''2'' (''Rise of the Machines'', ''Salvation'', ''Genisys'' and ''Dark Fate'') basically ignoring the others.
22	* FanonDiscontinuity: Although this trend started as early as ''Film/Terminator3RiseOfTheMachines'', this installment is a particularly notable receiver of this reaction due to a number of plot decisions, among them [[spoiler:killing John without any ceremony, revealing that Sarah's work was AllForNothing and invalidating (again) the Aesop of the two original films.]]
23	* HarsherInHindsight: The film's title of ''Dark Fate'' can seem strangely prophetic, seeing as the film's underwhelming box office returns seems to have killed any likelihood of sequels in the foreseeable future.
24	* IKnewIt: The announcement of Creator/EdwardFurlong's return to the franchise was met with excitement by long-time fans, but the fact that he was nowhere to be seen in the trailers or any other promotional material led to concerns that his role in the movie would be minimal. [[spoiler:Along with the film's title, this led many to suspect that John Connor would die early in the movie, which is what exactly happens in the opening scene]].
25	* ItsTheSameNowItSucks: While the film's reception hasn't been universally negative by any stretch, one common point of criticism is that it tends to rehash plot points of previous ''Terminator'' films [[note]]The TerminatorTwosome (plus a BadassNormal of some sort, like Kyle Reese), a female lead destined to birth the hero of the future war, the whole YouCantFightFate message, etc.[[/note]] and is especially derivative of the first two installments.
26	* JustHereForGodzilla:
27	** One of the main points of interest for the film is that it has Linda Hamilton reprising the role of Sarah Connor.
28	** Rev-9 for being played by Creator/GabrielLuna, best known for playing EnsembleDarkHorse [[ComicBook/GhostRider Robbie Reyes/Ghost Rider]] in ''Series/AgentsOfSHIELD''.
29	* LesYay: Many fans of the film were quick to read Grace and Dani as a budding romance (in the vein of Sarah + Kyle in the original film) and the pairing quickly gained popularity with the {{Shipping}} fandom, especially fan artists on Website/{{Tumblr}}.
30	* MagnificentBastard: The [[ScarilyCompetentTracker Rev-9]] is the charismatic amalgamation of past Terminators sent from the alternate future by the supercomputer Legion to kill Daniella "Dani" Ramos before she eventually leads the Resistance against it. Using charm and a personable disposition, Rev-9 first tracks down Dani at the factory she works at after murdering and disguising himself as her father, fights off the augmented human Grace sent to stop him, and uses his separable exoskeleton to doggedly continue pursuit during an extended car chase. Rev-9 then disguises himself as a border patrol agent, gets Dani, Grace, and Sarah Connor arrested when sneaking into America, [[SilverTongue sways agents when he's beeped at a metal detector]], and takes multiple agents out when they try to restrain him. He also uses multiple tactics to continue pursuit in the air and puts up an immense fight against both Grace and the rogue Terminator "Carl" as well. Refusing to relent on his determination in fulfilling his mission, Rev-9 fully proves his own declaration of how "[[ShapeshifterWeapon [his] whole body's a weapon]]".
31	* MisBlamed: [[spoiler:John Connor's death]] at the beginning has caused controversy and left some think it was a cause of CreativeDifferences between James Cameron and Creator/TimMiller or the film's other producers and that Cameron had nothing to do with it. Turns out, it was ''his'' [[https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/movies/story/2019-11-02/terminator-dark-fate-spoilers-john-connor-james-cameron?fbclid=IwAR00EJRdxBpa8MnmSr3EDjnzHa_Ng9wuyAoEpWg9UhwbmWJRyy5495J-SqQ idea]].
32	* {{Narm}}:
33	** The trailer has one moment where a hammer hits the new Terminator's leg and it makes a very cartoony splat sound.
34	** Sarah randomly saying [[spoiler:"She's John."]] after the big reveal, as if we somehow couldn't possibly get it without that.
35	** For Spanish-speaking viewers, there's the outlandish fact (though hardly unusual in film industry) that Vicente and Felipe are actually played by ''Spanish'' actors trying to fake Mexican accents. While the result is decent enough that it might fool people unaccustomed to hear Mexicans and Spaniards, it can be thoroughly difficult to take seriously by those who know.
36	* NarmCharm: The shot of [[spoiler:Carl and Rev-9 laying down together as the former does a TakingYouWithMe seems less like a sacrifice and more or less two drunken buddies lounging on the floor. But once you look into it some more, as well as Rev-9's NotSoDifferentRemark, they are one of a kind, and the shot showcases how they are {{Foil}}s - Carl is the last remnant of Skynet, Rev-9 is the start of Legion.]]
37	* OlderThanTheyThink:
38	** This isn't the first time the ''Terminator'' franchise has shown a cyborg of human origin. The graphic novel ''Tempest'' released in 1990 revealed that one of Skynet's earliest attempts at creating cyborgs involved reconstructing injured humans. ''Film/TerminatorSalvation'' also had Marcus Wright, a death row inmate who signed over his body to be experimented on to Cyberdyne, leading to him being converted into a cyborg as well. ''Literature/T2Trilogy'' also featured [=SkyNet=] creating genetically-modified humans to turn into cyborg infiltrators, sacrificing some of the regular Terminators' combat power in exchange for being ''much'' harder to detect, even for a Resistance that knows what to look for.
39	** Rev-9 looking far more average when compared to its predecessors qualifies; back when the very first film was still in development, Cameron originally intended for the Terminator to be more of an infiltrator, sporting a "common man" appearance. He even had Creator/LanceHenriksen cast as the titular assassin, prior to recasting Schwarzenegger later on.
40	** Major Dean, Sarah's contact in the U.S. Army, is criticized for being [[NoodleIncident an unexplained plot thread about how Sarah met him]] just so that the heroes can get a hold of a useful weapon. ''Film/Terminator2JudgmentDay'' also did this with Enrique, who also met Sarah at some unimportant NoodleIncident and served as a way to advance the plot by giving weapons to our heroes (although Enrique had the benefit of receiving a real backstory, being one of the military men Sarah had sought to train John, while Dean's background with Sarah isn't given).
41	** Rev-9 disguising itself as a Border Patrol officer, the Mexican-US border issue and the refugee crisis, and that the Border Patrol are portrayed as antagonists has been criticized as [[{{Anvilicious}} forcing politics into the franchise]], even though in ''Film/Terminator2JudgmentDay'', the T-1000 disguising itself as a cop was confirmed by Creator/JamesCameron to be a commentary on corruption in the police and police brutality, similar to what ''Dark Fate'' seems to have been aiming with its depiction of the Border Patrol.
42	** One point of contention was the Terminator developing emotions and regretting killing John Connor. However, the theatrical cut of the second film ''explicitly says'' a Terminator will develop emotions the more contact it has with humans. Of course, that was some duct tape [=ADR=], meant to cover up for a longer scene where John Connor reprograms the T-800 to reactivate its disabled emotional subroutines, but if a viewer accepts the theatrical cut as canon then the new Terminator's sudden emotions fit with what was established.
43	* OneSceneWonder:
44	** [[spoiler:John Connor... before he dies.]]
45	** Tom Hopper as William Hadrell, a musclebound Resistance fighter during the Future War.
46	* QuestionableCasting: The decision to have Enrique Arce and Tristán Ulloa, Spanish actors, playing the Mexicans Vicente and Felipe Ramos, strikes as particularly odd in a film already having several Latin actors and extras.
47	* ReplacementScrappy: Dani for John Connor for a large part of the fandom. It doesn't help that [[spoiler:John Connor dies at the beginning so she can be the future savior instead]].
48	* ShockingMoments: The beginning scene: [[spoiler:a T-800 showing up out of nowhere and shooting John dead.]] How's that GutPunch feeling?
49	* {{Squick}}: Grace reveals that she's a cyborg in the same way all the other Terminators do: by accumulating a series of gruesome injuries. [[spoiler:By the film's climax, Dani has to tear a gadget out of Grace's abdomen.]]
50	* SurprisinglyImprovedSequel: At least in comparison to ''Salvation'' and ''Genisys''. It got generally positive reviews, earning a 70% from ''Rotten Tomatoes'', giving it the third highest score there, though in ''Metacritic'' it lagged behind ''Rise of the Machines'', earning the fourth spot. Of course, both are still considered vastly inferior to the first two.
51	* TaintedByThePreview: Responses to the first trailer were rather varied and far from unanimously enthusiastic, with it garnering 1/5th of dislikes on the film's [=YouTube=] channel.
52	* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot:
53	** The plot point that [[spoiler:Skynet sent Terminators back at multiple points of time as backups to kill John Connor]] would alone make for an interesting story, especially with the new revelation that they can be redeemed through human contact and turned into potential allies. However, this fizzles out due to [[spoiler:killing John Connor, introducing a replacement savior in the form of Dani, and retreading the TerminatorTwosome formula.]]
54	** Part of the reason why director Tim Miller decided on [[spoiler:killing off John Connor]] was that he wasn't a fan of TheChosenOne trope and he felt that the creative idea of John living a normal, everyday existence after averting Judgement Day wasn't thematically or creatively interesting. On paper maybe, but the thought that John was going to be the leader of humanity only for [[spoiler:someone new and unknown to take his place has ''plenty'' of story and thematic potential. There was opportunity for both John and Sarah Connor working together to train Dani to survive against Legion's Terminators, especially since both John and Dani would share the same experience of having to deal with Terminators in their childhoods.]] In fact, having John [[spoiler:dying in a HeroicSacrifice to save Dani, instead of being offed by a Terminator a couple of minutes into the film, would have been a much more fulfilling and dignified send-off given that his own role in saving the world had ended with the destruction of Skynet.]] In addition, the premise of ''Dark Fate'' makes the idea of John living an ordinary life a non-issue. The movie is predicated on the fact that ''Terminators keep coming''. Sarah didn't settle down to live an ordinary life either, which means there was plenty of story potential for an elder Sarah and middle-aged John to [[BadassFamily start a Terminator-hunting family business]].
55	** Major Dean was criticized for being basically an AssPull needed for the heroes to acquire a weapon against the Rev-9. However, this could have changed completely with just a simple touch: had the character been Danny Dyson, the now adult son of Miles Dyson from ''Film/Terminator2JudgmentDay'', his story would have told itself nicely, as he could have believably grown to become a military tech expert with knowledge of Skynet (a plot point that was actually used in the previous film, ''Film/TerminatorGenisys'', which had its own appearance of an adult Danny and would have featured him further in the planned ''Genisys'' trilogy). The fact that even their surnames are so similar makes one wonder whether the producers weren't actually considering this idea before they discarded Dyson for a SuspiciouslySimilarSubstitute.
56	** Seeing Carl's transition from heartless killer machine to kindly family man would have probably made for a more interesting main plot that led to a warmer reception than introducing two new characters and hastily thrusting them into a series of lengthy action scenes. It doesn't help that Dani and Grace's story ends up being yet another retread of the "protect the future savior of humanity" plotline.
57	** The film introduces the idea that a Terminator which succeeds in its mission is left high and dry to find its own new purpose. This is explored with the character of Carl, but it has more unexplored potential, with there being many possibilities of what a Terminator could choose to do without a mission, and could have been used to create a more tangible connection between Skynet and Legion. Perhaps a Terminator, realizing that John and Skynet are gone, decides to create a new AI to take Skynet's place?
58	* TooBleakStoppedCaring: One factor behind the movie's status as a ContestedSequel. The movie retcons the events of previous ''Terminator'' movies and picks up where ''Terminator 2'' left off. However, it ends up rendering the events of that one pointless by not only having the movie begin with [[spoiler: John Connor's murder at the hands of a former Skynet Terminator]], but also has Judgment Day happen anyway and a dangerous new A.I. take Skynet's place.
59	* UncertainAudience: As Richard Roeper put it, the film sends mixed signals about whom its intended audience is. Marketing the return of Schwarzenegger, Hamilton and Cameron to the franchise for the first time in 28 years gives the impression that it's being marketed towards die-hard fans who grew up with the franchise. But then, [[spoiler:killing off John Connor, and then falling back on the same RecycledPremise as the first two films except with a new BigBad and LivingMacGuffin that are nearly exactly the same barring a name or gender]] gives the impression that this was meant to be a clean slate. The end result is that the film failed to interest ''either'' side and became a financial flop.
60	* SugarWiki/VisualEffectsOfAwesome: It's par for the course for a ''Franchise/{{Terminator}}'' film, but special mention must go to the ''flawless'' DigitalDeaging of Creator/LindaHamilton, Creator/EdwardFurlong, and Creator/ArnoldSchwarzenegger in the opening. Many critics have compared the effects in that scene favorably in contrast to similar de-aging effects in ''Film/GeminiMan'' (released around the same time period), where the effects quality was criticized as being subpar despite being much more central to the overall film.
61	* WhatDoYouMeanItsNotPolitical:
62	** Many people have noticed the imagery of a Hispanic woman running away from a ruthless ICE official (Rev-9 in disguise) and the story being set in Central Mexico and parts of Texas does ring for the current political climate of the United States and the increased authority of Immigration Customs Enforcement.
63	** Also, said Hispanic woman's brother just had his job pulled out from under him to cut back on expenses.
64	** Rev-9's default form is a Mexican man, which may make his seeming employment as an ICE officer appear as if he's a CategoryTraitor.
65	** An officer at the detention center is [[InsistentTerminology insistent that the correct term for the people they've incarcerated]] isn't "prisoner", it's "detainee".
66	* WinBackTheCrowd:
67	** Due to the lackluster performance of ''Film/TerminatorGenisys'' and the divisive nature of ''Film/Terminator3RiseOfTheMachines'' and ''Film/TerminatorSalvation'' and James Cameron's intention to [[RevisitingTheRoots revisit its roots]], it appears Cameron fully intended to pull this off, with the help of Creator/TimMiller (the director of ''Film/{{Deadpool\|2016}}'', which was a great success among audiences and critics alike). Bringing back Creator/LindaHamilton as Sarah Connor just helped to seal the deal.
68	** The [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxy8udgWRmo second trailer]] for the film was been much more warmly received than the first.
69	** Finally, many of the reactions from the surprise Alamo Draft House screening hail the film as [[https://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/1106068-terminator-dark-fate-early-reactions-hail-it-as-best-since-t2 "the sequel ''Terminator'' fans have been waiting forever for" and the best since ''Terminator 2''.]]
70	** Arnold Schwarzenegger managed to recreate what made the second T-800 so well-liked among fans, which is a welcome respite considering the T-850 from ''Rise of the Machines'' was devoid of any charisma, the T-RIP in ''Salvation'' was little more than a cameo, and Guardian in ''Genisys'' was too goofy to take seriously.

Context YMMV / TerminatorDarkFate