Line #99 WMG/Deltarune


1	[[index]]
2	* [[WMG/DeltaruneWDGasterTheNarrator W.D. Gaster/The narrator]]
3	* [[WMG/DeltaruneKrisCharaTheSoulTheVessel Kris/Chara/The SOUL/The Vessel]]
4	* [[WMG/DeltaruneTheHeroes The Fun Gang/The Heroes]]
5	* [[WMG/DeltaruneTheDarkWorldsTheDarkners The Dark Worlds/The Darkners]]
6	* [[WMG/DeltaruneTheLightners The Lightners]]
7	* [[WMG/DeltaruneTheAngelTheKnight The Angel/The Knight]]
8	* [[WMG/DeltaruneOther Other]]
9	[[/index]]
10
11	[[foldercontrol]]
12	[[folder:The Titans/The Roaring]]
13
14	[[WMG: The Roaring will begin, but it can be stopped, and doing so will be part of the final chapter(s).]]
15	Just mentioning the Titans at all is just screaming "you're gonna fight these guys at some point" to any attentive player.
16
17	So I'm calling it now. The endgame will be fighting the Titans, with the main one in the middle (with the eyes we've seen elsewhere) being the FinalBoss.
18
19	As for why it will end this particular way? Until I actually thought about it before adding this paragraph, I've been subconsciously thinking of ''[[WesternAnimation/{{Hercules}} Hercules]]'' the whole time and how the world wasn't automatically screwed if that movie's Titans got out, since they could be defeated and put back in their [[SealedEvilInACan can]] if they managed to get out.
20	%%
21	%% Also, wow, there's no trope for an apocalypse that can be stopped AFTER it starts?
22
23	[[WMG:The Dark World save points are formless Titans.]]
24	The Titans seem to all have a save point-like symbol on their head. We know from Lemon Bread that beings can assume the shape of a save point. The save points in the Dark World are generally suspicious. They are white instead of golden, even though, according to the ''Undertale'' demo manual, save points are made of determination, so their color should always be the same. Determination is brought up in ''Deltarune'' but never associated with save points, unlike in ''Undertale''. The Dark World save points seem to run on some vague "power", which is very strange. Maybe the Roaring will assemble them into the Titans?
25
26	[[WMG:The area before Ralsei's Castle is a dormant Titan.]]
27	One of the Titans we see has the same crossed-out eye symbols scattered across this area.
28
29	[[WMG:The fountain in Ralsei's Castle will cause the Roaring.]]
30	It supposedly will grow stronger the more Darkners we bring there. One particularly powerful fountain could tip the edge in favor of the darkness. One of the titans we see is larger than the rest and has the same crossed-out eye symbols, which could be the titan spawned by Ralsei's fountain.
31
32	[[WMG:The Roaring will start the moment 3 fountains exist at once.]]
33	In the cutscene depicting the Roaring, we see 3 fountains and 3 Titans. Ralsei also acts like Berdly and Noelle creating a third fountain would directly cause the Roaring instead of just contributing to it.
34	* Wasn't it more 'Opening a Dark Fountain while already inside a Dark World' that he was worried about?
35
36	[[WMG: Ralsei is immune to the Roaring.]]
37	He's been shown to be able to freely move between Dark Worlds, and can even move through the Light world. If the Roaring ''does'' petrify Darkners, it's possible that he would be immune to it like he can ignore the effects of other things Darkners have to deal with. In fact, the only thing he would have to deal with would be the Light world becoming covered in darkness — which is something he's already used to, as a Darkner.
38
39	[[WMG: The Roaring already happened.]]
40	Linking into the above theory, what if the Roaring is a repeating event? If Ralsei ''is'' immune to the effects of the Roaring, then it's possible that he's already lived through it — and that his dark world is the ''old'' version of the Light world.
41	* This would explain why the prophecy cutscenes are in the same style as ''Undertale''[='s=] flashbacks, because those are scenes that have happened in the ''past''.
42
43	[[WMG: The Titans take form in the real world as well.]]
44	As each Dark World is only a room in the Light World, a giant being in the Dark World would take the form of a normal-sized person [[TheyLookJustLikeEveryoneElse that will blend in with others]]. If there really is a dead Titan in the first Dark World, [[FridgeHorror then a body is hidden in the supply closet]].
45
46	[[WMG: Ralsei is a Titan, or an entity that will turn into one.]]
47	That would explain why he's so invested in closing off all of the fountains outside of his own, yet is so secretive about the exact nature of the threat to such a degree that he didn't even mention the Titans at all until he was forced to. Maybe he's afraid that his friends might decide that killing him or closing his fountain would be an easier and safer way to stop him from turning into a Titan at some point if they knew the full truth. Additionally, several features of the primary Titan that appears in the prophecy part of Chapter 2's normal path have been pointed out as being linked to Ralsei or his realm: namely, the general shape of the silhouette greatly resembles a boss monster (like what Ralsei appears as), and the barren unknown area leading into the Castle Town has the exact same eye markings seen on the Titan's body.
48
49	[[WMG: The Titans are or correspond to the three save files.]]
50	They all have save point-like symbols on their head. Gaster says "PREPARATIONS ARE COMPLETE." if you fill all three save slots by copying before ever having completed chapter 1, which could mean all save slots must be filled to reach the ending.
51
52	[[WMG:[[TomatoInTheMirror We are a Titan…]]]]
53	The Titans have save point symbols on their heads and we can save. Ralsei's town is named after our name, and the eye symbols in the area before it are seen on the largest Titan.
54
55	[[WMG:The Roaring will occur if anyone attempts to spawn a Dark Fountain ''within'' any Dark World besides Castle Town.]]
56	Based off Berdly and Noelle almost doing such, and as an alternative to an above guess, an overlap between two Dark World locations will cause the shadows to spread across the Earth. The contradictory manifestations will not only weave immense destruction, but will turn practically all Darkners into stone, as none of them are compatible with both "worlds". (Castle Town is a between-chapter hub in which more Dark Fountains are impossible to create at all.)
57
58	[[WMG:It will be possible to prevent the Roaring entirely, but failure to do so will [[DownerEnding prevent the world from ever being restored]].]]
59	In the final chapter, taking the right actions will make sure the worst never comes true, and a HappyEnding is earned. However, if the Roaring is to occur, the game will play around with the player via several {{Hope Spot}}s, but will eventually employ a heartrending {{subver\|ted trope}}sion of the "the apocalypse occurs in all its horror but the people as a whole live on" plot.
60
61	[[WMG:Building off the "Ralsei is hiding their true form theories" and the "Ralsei is a titan theories", Ralsei is the son of the blind eye Titan seen in the Roaring cutscene.]]
62	Their are many small inconsistencies in Ralsei's silhouetted form to his goat form that leave me to believe the people who pegged him as an illusionist are spot on. Biggest of all, however, is his ears, which go from short and spiky to long and fluffy. A complete contradiction. Now look at the blind eye titan, they have horns, seem to be vaguely animalistic, but also seem to have shot spiky hair that could be ears. Their Silhouette bares far more than a striking resemblance to Ralsei's hatted one, and if we assume they made the kingdom and fountain he resides in, that would make him the King of the Dark World in a sense, making his son the prince.
63
64	[[WMG:A monster that has absorbed 7 human [=SOULs=] is just as powerful as (or only slightly less powerful than) a Titan.]]
65
66	[[WMG:Jevil knows about the Roaring]]
67	He does mention how "hell's ''roar'' will bubble from the depths".
68
69	[[WMG:Spamton [[GoMadFromTheRevelation witnessed a Titan]]]]
70	This could be why he's obsessed with becoming "big".
71
72	[[WMG:We, the Player, will kill the Titans.]]
73	We, the actual player, not just the tiny soul we puppet, will manifest to fight off the Titans, similar to how Giygas dies in ''VideoGame/{{EarthBound\|1994}}''.
74
75	[[WMG:Destroying all fountains will cause an event similar to the Roaring.]]
76	There's a contradiction between the Prophecy and Ralsei's description of the Roaring: The prophecy says balance must be upheld, while the description of the Roaring says that only the dark overtaking the light has negative consequences. In order for the prophecy to be correct, there must be equivalent consequences for the light overtaking the dark as well.
77	* Follow-up theory: Such an event occurred in the past of the ''Undertale'' universe. While the Lightners managed to pull together and rebuild AfterTheEnd, the aftermath of the event sowed seeds of doubt between the humans and monsters that ultimately led to all-out war between the two and then the monsters' banishment.
78
79	[[WMG:Kris is possessed by the power of a Titan.]]
80	* Save Points only exist in the Dark World, and the Titans have Save Points for faces. When you first Save the game, you overwrite Kris's file with your own, which suggests that they have been to the Dark World before. A lot of the Save Points comment that "you are filled with the power of <something relevant to the current situation>" or that "the power of <something relevant> shines within you".
81	* Kris jumps in front of Susie to protect her from the King's attacks during Chapter 1, and during Chapter 2's Weird route, they are noted as looking distraught after Noelle is goaded into killing Berdly, which, combined with the Lightners' descriptions of them suggests that while they're ''mean-spirited'', they don't actually want to ''hurt'' anyone. This, coupled with hints that Kris likes Susie the most out of all their friends, makes it ''extremely unlikely'' that they'd open a Dark Fountain ''right next to her'' and place her in danger.
82	* Every time you use a Save Point, a portion of the Titans' power fills Kris. In the Light World, that power allows the Titans to take over Kris's body, tearing your [=SOUL=] from them so you can't see what they're making Kris do (and presumably so you can't take control back). The reason Kris moves so jerkily when this happens is because they're trying to resist the Titans' control, but can't.
83	* The Titans don't destroy your [=SOUL=] because they need you to bring Kris to the Save Points. Kris keeps your [=SOUL=] around because to them, you're the lesser of two evils: They may not like being puppeted around, but being made to act out of character is miles better than being forced to endanger everyone.
84
85	[[WMG:The Knight is (at least partially) a Titan]]
86	Queen does call them a "Roaring Knight" despite her not knowing about the Roaring beforehand. Plus it would explain the Knight's motivation somewhat (trying to bring their species back to life?).
87
88	[[WMG:Sans is a survivor of a previous Roaring]]
89	Based on how it's implied in ''Undertale'' that he's from another world, maybe he's an escapee from a world that got destroyed by Titans (either ''Deltarune'' or a different world).
90
91	[[WMG:The Titans are based off of adults stopping others from playing.]]
92	Darkners are primarily based off of toys and tools that enable the Lightners who use them to escape the mundane through {{Escapism}} and the power of imagination. They fear being stripped of their purpose… and what, then, would be more terrifying than somebody barging in and ''forbidding'' others from using them? Like an adult insisting that it's high time you 'grow up' and abandon childish interests, or taking the choice out of their hands by taking their things away, selling them off, throwing them out into the trash, or even destroying them outright.
93
94	This does not necessary mean that ''any'' Lightner adult will be automatically transformed into a Titan. It hinges more upon how they ''respond'' to the Dark Worlds. Somebody more accepting and receptive would be fine; the problem comes when adults reject the positive aspects of playtime, or attempt to enforce ''their'' views and values onto others. This would prove apocalyptic to both the Dark Worlds ''and'' the Lightners being forced to 'give up' on their dreams and fantasies.
95
96	[[WMG:Ralsei is either a [[GodInHumanForm mortal incarnation of the Titan]] sleeping near his kingdom, or a [[MouthOfSauron herald of some sort for it]]. He is using [[BatmanGambit Kris NOT to prevent The Roaring, but to make it happen in a way favorable to him]], which will happen at the end of [[WhamEpisode Chapter 7]].]]
97	Ralsei [[AFormYouAreComfortableWith just happens to look like Kris's brother at a younger age]], and is pretty much [[MrExposition the main source of information about The Dark Worlds]]… yet he only [[ManipulativeBastard spoonfeeds this information as it becomes necessary]] and very clearly knows more than what he lets on. To paraphrase his statements to an extreme degree:
98
99	* "[[TheQuest We need you to stop this other Dark Fountain]] cuz it'll be [[TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt bad]] if too much [[LightDarknessJuxtaposition Darkness manifests itself]]. But you should [[ThePowerOfFriendship be nice to people along the way]] because [[GoodFeelsGood it's the right thing to do]]."
100	* "Oh, right, by the way, sealing the other Dark Fountain [[MikeNelsonDestroyerOfWorlds makes that whole part of The Dark World go away]], but don't worry, everyone you befriended along the way can stay here in my previously empty kingdom, don't worry about it."
101	* "Oh, right, maybe don't bring other Darkners with you to the Light World… but apparently I can travel to other Dark Worlds somehow, it's not worth dwelling on!"
102	* "[[RuleOfThree Oh, right]], if worst comes to worst, maybe it's ok to not be nice to absolutely everyone… y'know, now that I think about it. You might get stronger for it."
103	* "[[RunningGag Oh, right]], Darkners [[TakenForGranite turn to stone]] if they go to other Dark Worlds… except My Kingdom, which is great! Also, I'm immune to this because… [[FridgeLogic actually no, I'm not going to address that]]."
104	* "[[OverusedRunningGag Oh, right]], the REASON other Dark Fountains being made is bad is because it might trigger an [[ApocalypseWow apocalypse]] with these [[EldritchAbomination Giant Titans]] waking up if there's too much Dark Power… but having everyone come to MY Dark World is still fine!"
105	* "[[PermanentlyMissableContent Hey don't forget to SAVE now that I've got what I need — I mean, now that WE'VE got everything done…]]"
106
107	''Also'' worth noting are the two occasions where Ralsei diverts the player's attention to Susie, who is elsewhere, and uses that time to talk to Kris about… ''something''… while the player isn't paying attention. Perhaps he is telling Kris to open more Dark Fountains so that they and The Player can find more Darkners to bring back to Ralsei's Kingdom, and increase his powerbase. Kris seems to be okay with this, although some aspects of their reactions seem to suggest being a little bit weirded out by Ralsei.
108
109	So, yeah, seems like Ralsei might be trying to amass power in his own Dark World and, probably, its corresponding fountain. It doesn't seem like a huge stretch of the imagination to think that, while too many Dark Fountains may cause The Roaring to occur, one Fountain becoming too powerful may cause The Roaring (or something similar) to occur… but possibly with only the one Titan awakening, allowing said Titan to be the one to… remake the world in their own image, or whatever.
110
111	It is possible there are obstacles in Ralsei's way that he needs to work around. Perhaps he is [[CannotTellALie unable or unwilling to directly deceive Kris or The Player]], either due to a curse or some aspect of his nature, or he's simply being [[MoralPragmatist pragmatic]], and figures it's easier to believe a fluffy childlike being who looks like Kris's brother and who only tells verifiable truths AND generally encourages you to be kind to others. Y'know… if [[Series/MisterRogersNeighborhood Mr. Rogers]] told you to go out and make friends and try to peacefully stop the thing that's threatening the world… wouldn't you be inclined to believe him?
112
113	A final possibility is that the first seven chapters of ''Deltarune'' will all be more or less what we're expecting: fun adventures in various Dark Worlds with our three supposed heroes with the occasional… [[MoodWhiplash worrying…]] [[NightmareFuel thing]]. Then, at [[WhamEpisode Chapter 7's end]], Ralsei plays his trump card and makes [[BitchInSheepsClothing his true intentions known]]. [[DownerEnding The Chapter ends]] with [[TheBadGuyWins Ralsei's version of The Roaring happening]] and [[ApocalypseWow the Light World fading away to give way to…]] whatever it is Ralsei is trying to create.
114
115	[[ToBeContinuedRightNow Then]], in the main menu, [[DummiedOut Chapter 0]] [[RealAfterAll unlocks]]. [[{{Prequel}} It will give background information that was missing]]… I have no idea what most of it will be, but by the end, a way to fight back against Ralsei and his Titan self/overlord will be presented. This will involve finding all of the [[BraggingRightsReward Shadow Crystals]], which you will need to jump back into your previous chapter save files to do. ''Maybe'' an easier way to find them will be unlocked, just in case beating the superbosses that hide them is too much for some players. When at least one save file in every chapter has their respective Shadow Crystal, Chapter 8 will unlock, in which Kris, Susie, and The Player are able to regroup and… work out the oddities in their relationship with each other… in [[VillainWorld the world Ralsei and the Titan have created]] and rally to fight back. Chapter 9 will then unlock and depict [[ClimaxBoss the fight against Ralsei]] after hunting him down. Maybe there will be a way to [[PacifistRun win Ralsei back to your side]] (assuming he is indeed a seperate being from The Titan). [[Creator/TobyFox Toby Fox]] is known for that sort of thing. Either way, Chapter 10 will depict the final battle against The Titan, and, depending on how kind you were in previous chapters, the final battle may be made easier or more difficult, with a playthrough [[VideoGameCrueltyPotential full of Snowgrave-like actions]] being more difficult than anything else we have seen in ''Deltarune'' or ''Undertale''. Alternately, if Ralsei and The Titan are one and the same, maybe Chapter 9 will involve rallying whatever Lightners (and Darkners, if any are left) to fight against The Titan and Chapter 10 will still be The Final Battle, or perhaps Chapter 9 will be The Final Battle, and Chapter 10 will simply be the ending. On that note…
116
117	Toby has [[WordOfGod said]] that the ending will be the same no matter what, so I will assume as much to be true. I wouldn't put it past him to have the ending be broadly the same with differences depending on your actions, though, since… he does a lot of that.
118
119	* What's the explanation for Lancer knowing the prophecy then, in this scenario?
120	* Ralsei and the Titans are also both associated with Flowey, the Titans by virtue of Your Best Nightmare appearing as a leitmotif in The Dark Truth, Ralsei by virtue of him quoting Flowey.
121
122	[[WMG:The Original Starwalker is a weakened Titan.]]
123	Not only is he shaped like one of the Titans in the cutscene explaining the Roaring, but he is also able to travel to other Dark Worlds without turning to stone. There’s also the fact that neither he nor the other Starwalker seem to be based on anything in the Light World.
124
125	While this could just be chalked up to him being a joke character, I believe it is a sign that he’s not truly a normal Darkner.
126
127	[[WMG: The Secret Bosses are Titans]]
128	Or will become Titans, or have the potential to become Titans.
129
130	[[WMG: The Titans are [[SealedEvilInACan sealed underground]] similar to the monsters in Undertale.]]
131	That's why the large Titan is shown coming from a crevace in the Earth and why the Roaring causes crevices in the Earth in the first place. Creating a fountain means creating a crack deep enough to reach the barrier containing them and poking a hole into it. The soul can seal holes in the barrier because it or something like it was used to create the barrier. What makes Ralsei's fountain "grand" is just that it's a bigger hole.
132
133	[[WMG: The Roaring is an allegory of losing oneself in {{Escapism}}]]
134	As another theory above said, the Dark Worlds and the Darkners are all based in activities used for escapism, and the power of imagination. So it's fiable to say that the Knight is someone looking up to spice up Hometown's dull, suburbian existance by creating more and more Dark Worlds. But dwelling too much into fantasy can make you lose sight of reality (endless darkness), eventually the things you used to enjoy become routine and you lose interest (endless despair) and the things you used to cherish become useless to you (Darkners become stone).
135
136	That's the reason why only Ralsei's Fountain is the only one meant to exist: its location is a storage closet, a place where you can safely deposit as many things as toys, laptops, books, etc. and you can safely return to them whenever you need them. Just like in Toy Story 3, where even though the toys don't find the attic appealing, they're willing to endure it to "be there for Andy."
137
138	[[WMG:There is a Light Fountain, and the Angel's Heaven is the result of it somehow over taking the Dark Fountain(s) and/or too many extra Light Fountains being created.]]
139	Basically, [[VideoGame/{{Terraria}} the Angel's Heaven is the Hallow to the Roaring's Corruption or Crimson]], and if it's triggered, the Lightners will be Raptured away while the Darkners are left to deal with an eye-searingly bright world that is literally trying to kill them.
140
141	[[WMG: Lancer is actually the prince in the prophecy]]
142	Perhaps Ralsei is actually evil. Or perhaps, as shown in the [[spoiler:Chapter 1 Bose Fight, Ralsei is TOO nice to fulfill the prophecy and not able to do some necessary things other more scrupulous characters may be able to do.]] Or perhaps Ralsei simply is not an actual prince, and therefore can’t be part of the prophecy. Cue Lancer taking the role of the prince in the prophecy.
143
144	[[WMG: Titans are actually just ordinary Darkners.]]
145
146	The real issue with the Roaring is the "Darkness covers the world" part. All the Darkners we've seen thus far are normal person scale because the Dark Worlds are constrained to individual rooms. Once the entire world is one big Dark World, entire buildings and bits of infrastructure will be turned into giant Darkners, threatening both Lightners and smaller Darkners.
147
148
149	[[WMG:The Titans will be named after [[NamesToRunAwayFrom/DemonsorAngels angelic beings]] to tie with the Angel prophecy]]
150
151	And will also have ''Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion'' references in their fully visible designs, to tie with being cosmic kaiju who herald the death of worlds. Also ties in neatly with the idea Ralsei is actually a Titan in Darkner form, if it turns out his real name is [[LazyAlias Raziel]], after the Angel of Secrets - and he's a knowledgable sort.
152	[[/folder]]
153
154	[[folder:Jossed]]
155
156	[[WMG:In the second chapter, we will control the birdcage.]]
157	I mean, the SOUL we control is in there. Maybe we can just wheel ourselves through the game in the cart.
158	* In ''Undertale'', when you flee from a fight, your SOUL literally grows legs to escape. Perhaps we'll be able to grow legs in the next chapter in order to move our SOUL around and escape the cage.
159
160	[[WMG:The Knight and Queen are, respectively, Kris' uncle and biological mother.]]
161	Going by the 'Knight and Queen are humans' idea, this would make a possible relation between them and Kris possible. And it would make them a villainous BrotherSisterTeam. And if the Queen knew her child would become one of the destined Delta Warriors and thwart her schemes, it would mean she abandoned her child and left them to die (unaware they'd survive and get adopted by the Dreemurrs) in an effort to subvert the prophecy.
162	* I like this idea. Perhaps the Knight and Queen will end up attempting to kill Kris for the purpose of preventing the prophecy from coming true once they’ve found out that they’re still alive? Either of them could be the “angel” mentioned in the prophecy.
163	* Alternatively, this can present a contrasting dynamic between the Knight and the Queen. While the Queen would want Kris dead at any cost, The Knight may try to reach out to his 'sibling's child' in an effort to invoke WeCanRuleTogether by [[FauxAffablyEvil claiming]] to have [[EvenEvilHasStandards rejected]] The Queen's desire to kill Kris, and the Knight may even use the Hometown inhabitants' [[HeroWithBadPublicity treatment toward Kris]] as leverage to encourage Kris to turn on their adoptive home. While Kris may suffer a temporary HeroicBSOD upon learning their origins, they may ultimately reject "Uncle Knight's" proposal, mostly because of the simple fact what the Knight's been doing is evil, but partially due to Kris not buying sincerity in the Knight's words.
164
165	[[WMG:The fight against the Knight and Queen will be a colossal TearJerker.]]
166	Because after the straight, proudly evil Spades King, it'd be a subversion if it turns out his superiors are both {{Anti Villain}}s (going by the theory that secondary Fountains of Darkness cause inanimate objects to come to life in their own new kingdoms, the Queen could be a human girl who brought her toys to life using Darkner magic, with the Knight being her favorite; more mother and child than mistress and servant). When you encounter the Knight, he (going by the theory that he is a brother of Seam and Jevil, RuleOfThree and all) turns out to be a NobleTopEnforcer who apologizes to Lancer for his father having been so corrupted by power and is generally a FriendlyEnemy until he realizes you want to close his zone's Fountain. It turns out you [[ArcWords don't have a choice]], as a secondary Fountain will devastate both worlds by summoning the Angel, but he reveals that if he defeats you, he can create a new band of heroes that will fight for the sake of the new Fountains (making the ''GameOver'' a BittersweetEnding — the Light world is gone, but the Queen was able to cover the world in darkness — ie, [[TheExtremistWasRight create dozens of new kingdoms for her subjects and save them from the Angel]]). [[ForegoneConclusion He loses]], and commits SuicideByCop rather than live knowing he failed his Queen and everyone in his guarded kingdom. She finds out, [[ItsPersonal and swears eternal revenge]], which pretty much derails any attempt to Pacify her (in fact, she gets enraged and unleashes a free attack when you "insult his memory" by trying to show mercy).
167
168	[[WMG:"Dark World Noelle" in [[https://twitter.com/tobyfox/status/1173215290349559808 this tweet]] is actually Noelle's Darkner counterpart]]
169	Not only that, but also the Darkner form of the angel doll in Rudy's hospital room. Maybe they're facing backwards because Toby's hiding their lack of a face (just like the angel doll). Sure, the tweet itself says "Noelle", but that could just be referring to how the song in the video is her theme (and may be used for her Darkner counterpart too).
170
171	It's also worth noting that unlike Kris and Susie whose skin changes color when they're in the Dark World, "Noelle" in the video has the same fur color as Light World Noelle with just their hair color being different, similar to how Ralsei has the same white fur as Asriel except with a bit of pink at the tip of his hair fluff (along with pink horns instead of white).
172
173	Bonus points if this Darkner's name is an anagram of Noelle.
174	* Jossed, that ''is'' Noelle. Though it's still possible for the angel doll's Darkner form to resemble Noelle (or even Dess).
175
176	[[WMG:We will get to control the rest of the fallen humans in the next chapters (one human per chapter)]]
177	Kris only threw out the red SOUL at the end of the game because, as someone whose main trait is patience, they were able to wait the whole day for the right opportunity to do so. The other humans, however, will be much more resistant to the red SOUL's control.
178
179	* Orange: They will sometimes recklessly rush through overworld projectiles, attack enemies, and make any other choices without your input.
180	* Blue: There will be a "forced near-Genocide run" where they actually ''kill'' enemies, though they hopefully won't kill anyone who's as nice as Toriel.
181	* Purple: They won't leave an area until they've checked everything and took notes on them, including things you've already checked in previous chapters.
182	* Green: They will refuse to attack their enemies (or at least let their enemies' health reach 0), and won't make any "mean" choices either.
183	* Yellow: They will either spare or attack enemies based on which ones they've deemed good or bad, not letting you try to do the opposite.
184	* Some/all of them might try to pull out the red SOUL ''before you even finish playing the chapter''.
185
186	This, of course, will further reinforce the game's main theme of "your choices don't matter".
187
188	[[WMG:The Queen is the Spade King's wife.]]
189	What? It's obvious.
190	* Alternatively: The Queen's husband is a simple pawn, as in chess rules: [[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_(chess) "Because the queen is the strongest piece, a pawn is promoted to a queen in the vast majority of cases."]]
191
192	[[WMG:The Queen is Noelle's older sister, Dess.]]
193	To elaborate, "[[https://deltarune.fandom.com/wiki/Hometown/NPCs#Dess Dess]]" is an off-screen character mentioned by both Noelle and Rudy very briefly, known for helping make the angel figure seen in Rudy's hospital room and for punishing Kris for one of their many pranks on Noelle. Despite that being the only info we have on Dess, we can infer plenty of things by the way they're mentioned, alongside supplementary materials from ''Undertale'' media.
194	* Hints that Noelle has a sister in ''Deltarune'':
195	** Rudy's counterpart in Undertale was mentioned by [[https://undertale.com/alarmclock/asgore/ Asgore's Winter Alarm Clock Dialogue]] as having more than one daughter, with the youngest one being described as having a kind face and a tendency to shyly hide behind a corner during one of Asgore's visits. It fits Noelle the best, and as many characters in Undertale have a counterpart in Deltarune's universe, Noelle must have a sister to match.
196	** Observing the angel doll has Rudy point out that Noelle and Dess made it in a youth group together, implying that their ages are close enough to make them students of the same school. The doll itself couldn't have been a class-assigned project, since Kris and Asriel only thought to make their own angel in response to seeing Noelle and Dess' idea, and didn't even finish past their wing designs.
197	** Rudy mentions Asriel and Kris making their own attempt at an angel doll in the same anecdote about Noelle and Dess. With Asriel being the older sibling and away at college, this suggests a dynamic of the "big kids" being paired with the younger grade-schoolers during that time, which in turn implies Dess to be around Asriel's age group. And if Kris and Asriel decided they'd work best by being a sibling team, the same might have been believed for Noelle and Dess.
198	** Like Asriel, she's an [[TheGhost off-screen character]] and only known from second-hand recollection, but Asriel's character gets explanations from several townsfolk thanks to his reputation as the "town hero". Dess so far only gets mentioned by Rudy and Noelle, who'd find it important to mention her because she's family. She might even share the Holidays' FamilyThemeNaming of Christmas, with "Dess" being short for "December".
199	* Why Dess wouldn't be her mother:
200	** While work on the angel doll in youth group could be a case of a mom helping her daughter, like how Kris usually had Toriel act as their partner, Noelle is shown to have no trouble finding partners and thus wouldn't have to do the same. Even Kris was able to partner with their older brother Asriel during that time.
201	** Noelle refers to Dess [[FirstNameBasis by her first name]] instead of calling her "mom". She doesn't do the same for Rudy, calling him "dad". It also wouldn't be a sign of disrespect toward her, since she and Dess are close enough to work on arts and crafts together.
202	** If you tell Noelle that Susie eats chalk, Noelle initially thinks they're joking, like the time they scared her by claiming that ICE-E eats kids when they were both younger. Dess apparently responded by hitting Kris with a wiffle bat to make them admit they were just messing with Noelle. Not the sort of behavior expected from a parent, but rather a [[BigSisterInstinct really protective older sibling]].
203	* Why Dess would be the Queen:
204	** Jevil describes the Queen as eventually returning, comparing her arrival to a bubbling roar from Hell. Dess is known to be capable of violence… in the form of whacking Kris with a ''wiffle bat'', and only to be protective of Noelle. Still, they align in behavior enough, [[MetaphoricallyTrue especially when considering]] the Darkners' [[WorldOfHam penchant for theatrics]] and [[HumansAreCthulhu view of Lightners]]. Additionally, as we've speculated her to be around Asriel's age and possibly a peer of his, she could be making a trip home around the same time Asriel comes back from college. It'd also be why we can't find her in town, unlike Catty, Bratty, and Burgerpants, who were all friends with Asriel growing up.
205	** Speaking of Asriel, Dess could be something of a {{Foil}} or counterpart to him. Both are mentioned in secondhand anecdotes, and they're known as the extroverted counterparts to their more introverted younger siblings, but Asriel is loved and recognized by the entire town while Dess is barely brought up, and only by her family. If we work with what we inferred from the youth group stories, they both must have graduated high school as peers, yet when Asriel left for college, Dess' status is currently unknown. Since Rudy's left wondering if Asriel's doing any partying at college, it's also unlikely for them to be attending the same school (if Dess even decided to go to college at all). Otherwise, his own daughter would be there to tell him how they're both doing. With Asriel being a sort of AllLovingHero, Dess could make the final contrast by being an antagonist.
206	** Dess and Noelle both had a hand in making the angel doll with an "unsettling" lack of facial features, a trinket their father holds sentimental value in. As Noelle has been shown to be both [[https://twitter.com/tobyfox/status/1063270097110949888 connected to the Fun Gang]] and [[https://twitter.com/tobyfox/status/1173215290349559808 capable of entering the Dark World]], coupling this with the prophecy about "banishing ''the Angel's'' Heaven" only raises suspicion towards what Dess' importance could be.
207	** With the implication that something bad will happen to Noelle to make her the "Lost Girl", it sounds reasonable to assume [[BigSisterInstinct Dess]] might end up inflicting a RoaringRampageOfRevenge to help or save her sister, and maybe while [[ObliviouslyEvil not understanding the powers the Dark World grants her]].
208
209	[[WMG:The Dark World plotline is a RedHerring and the Dark World doesn't exist.]]
210	The Dark Kingdom plot was just Toby trolling the player by presenting them with and hooking them into a huge BigLippedAlligatorMoment so that [[spoiler:the WhamShot at the ending would take them by surprise even harder]]. The Dark World and all of the events therein were a shared dream of Kris and Susie induced by the card games in the room they fell unconscious in. Lancer, Ralsei, the Darkners, the Kings, and the Prophecy and its three heroes don't exist. Kris and Susie will never return to the Dark World and no event that happened inside it will affect the true plot, which is [[spoiler:Kris' ripping out their [=SOUL=]; seemingly possessed by something]]. (Although it might tie into the true plot thematically and/or through symbolism.)
211
212	Evidence #1: After Kris and Susie returned from the Dark World, they were [[spoiler:in a closet full of card games]]. The Dark World is card game themed. 'nuff said. As a bonus, this ending is a reference to ''Literature/ThroughTheLookingGlass'', where everything was AllJustADream.
213	** They were in a ''classroom'' full of card games, not a closet. And when they exit the only door in said classroom, it's shown to be a different door than the closet they entered.
214
215	Evidence #2: The Dark World clashes with the world building of ''VideoGame/{{Undertale}}''. Even considering that this game is an {{Elseworld}}, the Dark World StoryArc just doesn't fit in. Why is there a third race of people? Since when was the "balance of light and dark" important to the world of ''Undertale''? Why are plot-critical pieces of worldbuilding like SAVE files, determination, and [=SOULs=] that were omnipresent in the original game never mentioned by any Dark World characters? Why is the Delta Rune, a symbol created by monsters, {{Sigil Spam}}med everywhere in the darkling kingdom? Why does Ralsei resemble Asriel when they're not even the same race?
216
217	Evidence #3: The themes brought up in the Dark World StoryArc clash with the themes of ''Undertale''. Namely "Your choices don't matter" and "Violence ''is'' an option and sometimes the only one".
218
219	Evidence #4: The Dark World's existence doesn't make sense. How come there is an entire kingdom that declared war on both humans and monsters and nobody noticed? How come there is a portal to an alternate dimension in a closet in a school which teachers access daily and yet nobody ever went in or out the portal before.
220	** [[INeverToldYouMyName Ralsei seems to know Kris and Susie's names before they ever introduced themselves.]] Maybe the portal was opened specifically for them? Also, it may be possible that the Dark World is considered a myth by Hometown, hence why no one seems to bring it up.
221
222	Evidence #5: The Dark World doesn't appear to have anything to do with [[spoiler:Kris ripping their SOUL out]]. If it was important to the true plot or at least real, it would have. You could do mental gymnastics that [[spoiler:Chara is the Knight or the Queen]], but since when was [[spoiler:Chara]] card game or chess-themed?
223	** Kinda too early to tell, plus the Knight and Queen’s plan could involve Chara in some way, not that Chara is necessarily one of them.
224
225	Evidence #6: Kris and Susie leaving the Dark World had an aura of finality that wouldn't make sense if they ever had to return. The Kings were imprisoned and the fountain was destroyed. You could argue that [[spoiler:the Knight and the Queen are still [[TheUnfought unfought]] and at large, but this is irrelevant because with the fountain's destruction, their plan already failed]]. It wouldn't make sense to drop that entire world out of the plot so soon unless it wasn't real.
226
227	** The Knight is implied to be the one who opens up the extra fountain. While that fountain may have been sealed, there's nothing indicating that they can't open up another one, so they and the Queen are still threats at least to an extent. Regarding the other points, considering that ''Deltarune'' is an Elseworld, that doesn’t mean it has to obey ''Undertale'''s rules. It can still be radically different from ''Undertale'', since it's an alternate universe, and by that, not everything from the first game will operate the exact same here; in other words, ''Deltarune'' can have its own WorldBuilding that’s different from ''Undertale''. Also, the themes aren’t just part of the Dark World, they’re the themes of ''Deltarune'' itself, meant to establish it as a SpiritualAntithesis to ''Undertale''. Besides, Toby already gave us Ralsei and Lancer, two major characters who are generally well-liked by the fandom, so revealing them to not exist after all would be, well, a disappointment. ''Deltarune'' so far only has one chapter, so there’s still ways that the Dark World can come into play in the future.
228
229	Evidence #7: Susie states how no food consumed in the Dark World is able to reduce her hunger at all. Of course, food can't quench hunger if it doesn't exist.
230	** Or it could be referring to the possibility of Susie not having enough to eat at home, hence why she ate chalk before. Also, just wondering, how would you explain the egg? Kris can find a man behind a tree in the forest, and Kris can actually put this egg in Asgore's fridge. Kris didn't obtain the egg before, so how would they still have it in their inventory? Did Kris take it from Temmie or something? I would also like to note that Susie says “Let’s go back there tomorrow.” to Kris, which would be odd if the Dark World was just suddenly dropped. There’s also Susie's scar[[note]]if it ''isn't'' just her pulling the bangs out of her eyes[[/note]] that appears on her portrait, which she gets from the battle against the Spades King. She still retains that feature even after exiting the Dark World.
231	** But why wouldn't the food be able to reduce her hunger at all, even if she normally doesn't eat enough? Unless she is starved to the point of her digestive system failing, which I doubt. She specifically states that this is a property of Dark World food. I didn't know about the egg and the scar. That is potentially theory-busting evidence. Maybe Kris grabbed the egg from the supply closet while hallucinating? As for the scar, I got nothing.
232	** Susie could be exaggerating, in that she's just really hungry, not that the Dark World food actually doesn't do anything. I’m not sure where in her dialogue she specifically states that the Dark World food cannot fill her up, because that could just be a hyperbole to exaggerate her hunger. I also wonder that if the Dark World wasn't real, wouldn't that mean that Susie's character development was pointless because Lancer didn’t actually exist? And why is Ralsei still on the menu screen? That implies that he’ll play a major role in the future, which wouldn’t make sense if the Dark World was just dropped out of the plot. That, and some are already attached to the characters introduced in the Dark World, so I feel like it would be an unwise move to just forget about them.
233	** How do you know Susie got a scar? Are you sure it's not simply her pulling the bangs out of her eyes? Monster magic can't physically harm, let alone cut. The sword, ax, and scarf can all cause a bit of physical pain. (Mainly the sword, because Kris uses pencils that turn into swords in the Dark World.)
234	* [[https://imgix.bustle.com/uploads/image/2020/9/14/4864c5c3-8153-4558-8abc-e0cade114c2a-deltarune-chapter-2-famitsu-screenshots-3.png?w=1200&h=630&fit=crop&crop=faces&fm=jpg Previews of the rest of the game include Ralsei]], apparently Jossing this WMG, at least for the moment.
235	** Update: Chapter 2 completely Josses this.
236
237	[[WMG:''Deltarune'' doesn't take place in a different timeline, it takes place in a different universe entirely: one that doesn't have DETERMINATION.]]
238
239	Rather than being an alternate timeline where everything ''was'' the same until a crucial point that [[Franchise/BackToTheFuture skewed off into a tangent]], it's a completely different universe that has no connection to the universe of ''Undertale'' beyond the existence of certain characters. There is no "place in the timeline" for ''Deltarune'' because it's another universe entirely: one where the power of Determination, the power to deny an ending (expressed as functional time-travel), does not exist. That's why in ''this'' world, no one gets to choose, and your choices don't matter.
240	* Jossed in Chapter 2. Queen explicitly refers to the power of Determination as a key factor in creating new Dark Fountains.
241
242	[[WMG:The [[PlayingCardMotifs playing cards motif]] will continue for the next three 'chapters' of the game, with each chapter having a specific suit and role.]]
243	The first chapter had the Spade suit (Lancer) and the King role (Lancer's father), along with the additional Joker (Jevil) and even a Rules Card (Rouxls Kaard). The next three chapters will have — in any order — the other three suits (Hearts, Diamonds, and Clubs) and roles (Queen, Ace, and Jack). Each multi-area 'arc' of the following chapters will have at least two new characters — one to play the role of Lancer and the King, respectively. The 'Lancer'-type character will represent the suit in general, whereas the 'King'-type role will represent the aforementioned card roles.
244
245	Given Jevil's speech on a 'Queen' being a [[GreaterScopeVillain potentially bigger threat]] than even "the Knight" mentioned by the King himself, the Queen will perhaps be the final card role of the four, and given the [[AliceAllusion Wonderland themes so far]], maybe the respective suit will be the [[WickedHeartSymbol Heart]] suit, so as to make her… [[GodSaveUsFromTheQueen the Queen of Hearts herself]]. Needless to say, this would make the Heart the final suit to be represented, and its ultimate role would make sense given the importance of [[ArcSymbol hearts]] in [[VideoGame/{{Undertale}} this series]]. It is the shape and color of the SOUL, after all.
246
247	But just because the Queen may be worse doesn't mean this supposed 'Knight' would be any less menacing, given that he seems to have power over even [[TheCaligula the King]]. Perhaps this would make him the boss of the penultimate area/arc…? But there's no Knight role in playing cards, so perhaps not…
248
249	Anyway, back to suits, maybe the 'Lancer'-type character of the Club suit will be named "Shamrock," given the plant's resemblance to said suit and that the "Clover" name has already been taken? Maybe the 'Jack' character's name will be some variation of 'Jack' (like "Jackie," "Jack-Jack," "Jackson," "Jackmond," "Jacqueline," et cetera).
250	* Chapter 1 already introduced the other three suits (Rudinns = diamonds, Hathys = hearts, Clover = clubs), though it's still possible that they'll get more focus in later chapters. There could even be ''two more'' chapters where one focuses on Jevil (and possibly another Joker) and the other on Rouxls Kaard.
251	* Jossed as of chapter 2, the Dark Worlds are revealed to be reflections of the area they came from, and Chapter 2's Dark World is computer-themed (having come from the Librarby).
252
253	[[WMG:Rouxls Kaard will be promoted to prince in the Pacifist Route]]
254	Lancer will do this because he doesn't know too well how royal ranks work and, now that he's the king, thinks someone else needs to be the prince and that Rouxls would be perfect for the second-highest rank. And yes, this will mean [[ProphecyTwist Rouxls will be one of the possible candidates for the third hero as a Prince from the Dark]].
255
256	[[WMG:Kris is a boy]]
257	This is still a theory, not a fact. They might ''seem'' to lean more masculine, but the biggest piece of evidence for that interpretation appears to be the male scented soap. Which could’ve been for Asriel.
258	* Because, as we all know, men have a very specific smell, and using male-scented soap will instantly transform your gender.
259	* Deodorants and body washes etc. are marketed to specific genders because guys and girls (in general) secrete different quantities and types of bodily oils, so they need to be tailor-made to suit those needs. Nobody's being sexist or anything, that's just biology.
260	** Either way, the deodorant point is irrelevant anyhow as checking it says that it hasn't been used. Even if it was Kris' at some point, nothing suggests that they bought it or own it mind you, it seems like they didn't feel comfortable using it.
261	* Either way, we see that Kris goes by they/them pronouns, like every other human. Theorising about what's in a kid's pants, even if they're fictional, is, frankly, kind of weird.
262	* Another point that not many have pointed out — we see that Kris and Asriel share a bedroom. While that's not unusual for for any combination of siblings while they're young children, it's usually considered invasive for opposite-sex siblings to share rooms once they're teenagers or older.
263	** Kris has an established close relationship with Asriel though; if you're close enough, then sharing a bedroom really isn't much of an issue.
264
265	[[WMG:Muffet is the mayor]]
266	All we know about the mysterious mayor is that she's a woman and is uncharismatic but efficient. Of (''Deltarune'' equivalents of) important female characters from ''Undertale'', Muffet is conspicuously absent from Hometown. It's possible they're one and the same; Muffet could arguably be described as having "negative charisma" (using intimidation, extortion, and violence to carry out her will), but also as efficient (spiders are industrious, after all). It's also possible that Muffet has no place in Toby's plans for ''Deltarune'' given that she's not his creation, but she at least seems like a good candidate.
267	* Jossed, the Mayor is Mrs. Holiday.
268
269	[[/folder]]
270
271

Context WMG / Deltarune