| 1 | Headscratchers for ''Trials and Tribulations''. |
| 2 | ---- |
| 3 | [[foldercontrol]] |
| 4 | |
| 5 | [[folder:Godot in General]] |
| 6 | %%Questions dealing with or directly citing Case 3-5 go in that folder. |
| 7 | |
| 8 | * Who exactly throws or gives, the coffee to Godot during court? I mean, it slides to his hand. And also, does Godot prepare the coffee before the trial or during the trial? |
| 9 | ** I'm going to say that he has coffee-based telekinesis. |
| 10 | ** Maybe his coffee machine (hidden to the right of the screen), launches the cup forward when it's done filling it? |
| 11 | *** Well, that answers that. |
| 12 | *** He could just summon it from {{hammerspace}}. Calling it is optional. [[http://yuuhiko.deviantart.com/art/Phoenix-Wright-Godot-s-Power-66060772]] |
| 13 | *** Alternatively, Brewster is his assistant but as he is a giant pigeon he understandably doesn't want to be seen and just slides coffee to him. |
| 14 | *** Obviously, it arrives from the same place as Matt Engarde's mysteriously appearing glass of brandy. |
| 15 | *** Now see, it always looked to me like Matt was pulling it literally out of his ass. |
| 16 | *** [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwixq7fff-Q Lou.]] |
| 17 | ** The person who handles his Court Record for him...? (because he's too cool to handle it himself?) |
| 18 | ** I swear that somewhere in the manga it was shown that his visor also included a coffee machine. And since the desks are slanted, maybe he just slides it up and then back down for emphasis. |
| 19 | ** Perhaps someone behind him in the audience goes on runs for him and using some sort of large stick puts it on the bench and slides it over. |
| 20 | * In 3-2, Phoenix says that Godot is the "most dangerous man he's ever faced in court", or something along those lines. Phoenix had only known him for a few hours, and the most Godot did was throw coffee at Phoenix. Sure, Godot has a deep, bitter dislike for Phoenix that Phoenix didn't know about, but why would Phoenix think that? Franziska was also after him, and used a whip. Plus, there's Manfred von Karma (world-class prosecutor, among other things), Matt Engarde, and de Killer, both of whom put Maya in danger. Really, why would Phoenix act as if Godot was his most dangerous foe? |
| 21 | ** Simple answer: hyperbole. Complicated answer: He obviously knows that Godot has it in for him, and he's just assuming that Godot has more tricks up his sleeves in the future. Not a perfect answer, but it does make some sense. |
| 22 | ** It's his personality. Edgeworth, Franziska, even Manfred von Karma to an extent all behaved like prosecutors; while they were varying degrees of corrupt, they respected the courtroom and behaved in a courtly fashion. Manfred was dangerous because he would do anything to win a conviction, but that also made him understandable to an extent. Phoenix could look at him and know, "This is what that man is, and what he is capable of." Edgeworth and Franziska were similar; as children of Manfred (one more literally than the other), they weren't hard to identify and understand who they are, where they come from, and how far they'll go. Godot is different. He's a complete mystery. He doesn't act like a prosecutor, he's always grinning like a jackal, and even when he's just lost his case, he ''acts'' like he won. Phoenix has no idea who this man is, where he came from, or why he has such a violent ''grudge'' against him. Von Karma was a devil, but he was a devil that Phoenix could see quite clearly from the moment he met him. Godot is a mystery wrapped up in malice that came out of nowhere, seems to have no history or point of origin, and is capable of ''anything'' because of it. |
| 23 | *** You mean "a mystery wrapped in malice from the blackest dregs at the bottom of the cup." |
| 24 | ** In addition to the above, Godot successfully manipulated Phoenix in a way none of the prosecutors or killers had before. A von Karma might get his client found guilty and beat him that way, but when Phoenix had that thought, it was because he thought Godot had tricked him into ''proving his own client was the murderer.'' |
| 25 | [[/folder]] |
| 26 | |
| 27 | [[folder:Turnabout Memories (Case 3-1)]] |
| 28 | * During Mia's first case (case 3-4 Turnabout Beginnings) the defendant drank from Dahlia's pendant-bottle, killing himself on the stand. This traumatized Mia to the point she had to wait a long time before taking on her second case, this one. Then, an identical pendant-bottle is shown to her by the defendant, Phoenix Wright, explicitly stated to have been received from Dahlia Hawthorne on the day and location Mia's boyfriend died of poisoning and… she doesn't immediately connect all of the dots? |
| 29 | * Winston Payne says that perhaps the victim could have grabbed the bottle of medicine to "identify the killer" or something to that effect. Did the victim stop and pick it up as he was about to be murdered and hold onto it while being electrocuted, or did he pick it up after having electricity from a high voltage wire surge through his body? The bottle was most likely planted. It doesn't bother me that Payne said it, but that Mia didn't pick up on it. |
| 30 | ** She probably did, but that argument wouldn't have held water. She couldn't possibly know when he grabbed the bottle OR known how long he lived after being electrocuted. |
| 31 | ** In point of fact, if he grabbed the bottle as he was being murdered, being electrocuted would have made it impossible for the victim to ''let go'' of the bottle, since the electricity would have caused his muscles to contract. This is why it's never a good idea to grab an electric fence to check if it's electrified, and why people instead suggest you check with your knuckles--so you aren't trapped holding onto an electric wire and constantly getting zapped. So it's not a good argument anyway. |
| 32 | * Why is Mia so surprised when she learns Doug couldn't have been hit by lightning? Did she forget who was at the witness stand? |
| 33 | ** Mia appears to have taken the case based solely on hearing that Dahlia was involved. She doesn't appear to have figured very many things out before entering the courtroom. When she first went into the courtroom, she didn't know exactly what had happened and had no way of being sure of who or what did it. She's basically like Phoenix himself when he first started out, i.e. greenhorn. |
| 34 | ** Also, IIRC, the way the whole hit-by-lightning thing happened, it seemed (to me, at least) that Mia was just saying it to buy herself some time. Besides, although that turned out to be wrong, she still figured that Dahlia was up to something, so it's possible that she was going to say something like Dahlia pushed Doug towards the lightning (although that would have made for a flimsy argument). |
| 35 | ** Because even if Mia took the case for revenge she was still a defence attorney and her primary job was to make sure that Phoenix won't be found guilty. Lightning would've won her case had it happened. |
| 36 | * There's an offhand line from Mia, regarding Phoenix, saying "that P on his sweater doesn't stand for Phoenix!" when she's mad at him for lying. Was this just a way of calling him a "pussy" (seeing as he was crying at the time) or something else? |
| 37 | ** It could be, but there's another word that starts with 'P' and means roughly the same thing without being mildly vulgar and out of character for Mia - I took it as her calling him a "pansy". |
| 38 | *** It could also be something like "pathetic" or "pitiful." There's ''several'' derogatory words starting with P that Mia could've meant there, really. |
| 39 | [[/folder]] |
| 40 | |
| 41 | [[folder:The Stolen Turnabout (Case 3-2)]] |
| 42 | * Luke Atmey attempts to use the theft of the sacred urn as an alibi for Kane Bullard's murder. But no one knew that he was connected to Mask☆[=DeMasque=] in the first place, and Ron was still in the building and probably would be convicted. Even if his plan worked, simply not stealing the urn and making sure to frame Ron would have saved him a theft sentence. Why did he use this convoluted plan? |
| 43 | ** Detective Luke Atmey, with his very {{meaningful name}} (look at me) did it because he's an {{attention whore}}. |
| 44 | ** Also, getting convicted of stealing the urn was always plan B for Atmey. Plan A was to have Ron [=DeLite=] arrested at the scene of the crime, relying on the planted evidence and the justice system to get Ron convicted. However, the Butz screwed that plan up and Ron escaped. Atmey's backup plan, just in case [=DeLite=]'s lawyers or an over-zealous prosecutor managed to track down some connection between Atmey and Bullard, was to be convicted of stealing the urn. |
| 45 | * Okay, so, by the end of "The Stolen Tournabout", we learn that Ron is, in fact, Mask☆[=DeMasque=] after Phoenix proved that he wasn't the thief on the night of the urn theft (and he ''wasn't''. Not ''that'' night, at least). And Ron says that, because of the double jeopardy law, he can't ever be tried for the crime of being Mask☆[=DeMasque=] again. Fair enough, but the thing is, he was initially tried for ''the theft of the Sacred Urn'', not the crime of being Mask☆[=DeMasque=]. Even if he can't be tried for the theft of the Urn again (which makes sense), why doesn't anyone bring up the idea of trying him for, say, the theft of the Tear of Emanon? Or the Crown of Bongora, or the Left Hand of Hades, or the Portrait of Majeena? That's four different cases of grand larceny for which, I can assume, Ron has never been tried. They are all completely seperate from the theft of the Kurain Sacred Urn, so they shouldn't be covered by double jeopardy because of that case. But Ron admits to have been Mask☆[=DeMasque=] for ''all'' those other thefts, and he gets off scot free because he was framed for the fifth robbery? Huh? |
| 46 | ** The laws in the ''AA'' universe are very different from what we have, with changes mostly directed towards "streamlining" processes, so a suspect is tried for a group of linked crimes whenever possible? Other than that, rule of cool/funny at its finest? |
| 47 | ** My best guess is that he was more-or-less charged with five counts of grand larceny at once, with the Urn taking priority since evidence was actually left there. So then the double jeopardy would then attach to all five counts instead of just the Urn theft. |
| 48 | *** Ron [=DeLite=] was being tried for grand larceny. In America), larceny turns into grand larceny when you've stolen a "significant value of property". In most states, you qualify for this at the $250 mark. The urn was valued as priceless, and I mean that in the worst possible way, meaning it had no "value". The odds of them lumping all of the theft crimes into one increases. |
| 49 | *** I think there is a legal need to prosecute all related crimes the state wants to charge somebody for at the same time. Not sure if this extends to serial theft though, but "charging him for all of it in one trial" is a valid, logical explanation. |
| 50 | ** So is there no concept of Severability in the Legal System? i.e. Acquittal of 1 charge should not ''ipso facto'' invalidate the other 4 charges. If not, that makes the "justice" system theoretically breakable by any run of the mill defense attorney, and not just be a prodigy like Mr. Wright, Esq.: just find a way to tack on one more case with a similar ''modus operandi'', acquit your client of ''that'' case, and bang, scot-free! Conversely, you get a glut of cases that become "Unsolved". |
| 51 | ** There's a little bit of FridgeBrilliance at work here when you consider that Godot originally trained as a defense attorney, and had never prosecuted a case before Ron's first trial. That being the case, whereas a more experienced prosecutor might have just charged Ron with stealing the urn, and then brought a seperate case (or cases) for the other thefts at a later date after gathering more evidence during and after the first trial, Godot whacked him with charges for all five thefts at once, couldn't make them stick due to the lack of evidence that Ron had stolen the urn, and thus had him acquitted on all five counts. Godot even indirectly admits that he screwed up his handling of the situation at the end of the second trial day. |
| 52 | * On a note related to the question above: why was Ron never charged with the data theft that he confessed to in court? They never even asked him for information that would allow them to warn the company whose data had been stolen that their security had been compromised. |
| 53 | ** For that matter, we don't see any proof that they even asked him for information that could help them track down the stolen items after the trial was over. It is possible that this could have happened offscreen. |
| 54 | *** They can't ask him for information to track down the stolen items. Legally, he never stole anything. Why would he know what became of items he never stole? |
| 55 | ** The company that he stole data from was his own former employer, KB Security. Any trial for that crime would depend heavily on the testimony of the person who fired Ron, or the authorities might decide that it's a private matter between Ron and his former employer and that it should be resolved in the civil courts -- and in either case, nothing further would happen seeing how Kane Bullard is dead. |
| 56 | * At the end of ''Trials and Tribulations'', Ron and Desiree [=DeLite=] apparently started a business counseling thieves to help them start honest lives and selling them plans on how to do their crimes on the side. There are two major contradictions here. The first is that Ron [=DeLite=] was given most of his plans by Luke Atmey, and the one plan he did make didn't work out so well. Where are these plans coming from? Also, Desiree hates sneaky thieves. Do all of their plans tell the thieves to announce their plans ahead of time? No smart thief would have the confidence to do that and if so many thieves started using calling cards, wouldn't there be an epidemic? |
| 57 | ** Nobody said those plans they sold on the side were any good... |
| 58 | ** Ron may be mediocre, but no one said Desiree is... |
| 59 | * One thing that bugs me is Luke Atmey lied after you break his Psyche-Lock and it doesn't register. According to the characters he shouldn't have been able to do that. (He claims he was knocked out by the Shichishito. It's not true.) |
| 60 | ** The thing is, the Magatama isn't exactly a straight-out lie detector. It reacts specifically to concealment and the withholding of secrets, which is precisely what Atmey was doing; what made his situation unique was that he was hiding ''another'' secret behind the first one. By concealing his lie about getting hit over the head by the Shichishito, it was treated just the same as any other secret, and "unlocked" accordingly. Had Phoenix used the Magatama a second time immediately afterward, it probably ''would'' have picked up on the presence of a second secret (i.e. what actually happened), but as he's never had to do that in the past he simply didn't think of it. |
| 61 | *** Related to the above point: The Magatama shows a person's heart kept secrets, not lies. Someone could be lying about something that they themselves don't consider a "secret" yet the locks would not show. It's quite plainly stated that the Psyche-Locks are "locks on a person's heart" so they probably would not respond to something that is not a strong emotional lie to a person. Not only that, but the locks would not appear anyway unless Phoenix directly questioned whether him getting hit was true or not. Like the above comment stated, the Magatama does not instantly detect lies. It detects someone locking up their heart from the holder. |
| 62 | ** Consider that Atmey implies that it was ''Mask☆[=DeMasque=]'' who hit him on the head, bending the Shichishito. However, from Atmey's point of view, ''he is Mask☆[=DeMasque=]''. Of course it was Mask☆[=DeMasque=] who bent the sword and that Mask☆[=DeMasque=] is Atmey himself. That was "the truth" on about the same level as Matt Engarde's. |
| 63 | ** The clue here is ''how'' he lied. As explained, the Magatama only reacts to willfully concealing information. You can see that, in pretty much every time Psyche-Locks appear - the other person stays silent for a moment in response to a question. Basically, the Magatama reacts when they get defensive about a secret they are holding. Atmey was just in the middle of the explanation when he casually made up another lie. Though this does not explain how Morgan dodged the Magatama in the previous game. |
| 64 | * In "The Stolen Tournabout", you pick up "Bullard's Notes" (That binder full of prices that are "too low" for each of the stolen items)... and you ''never use it in court''. What was it for, and what are those numbers, anyway? |
| 65 | ** I thought that those were the prices that Bullard received from Luke Atmey for blackmailing him over the theft of each item. It was stated twice that the prices were too low to be the black market values of the stolen items. |
| 66 | * Why didn't Godot squeeze another day of trial by simply proclaiming that, though the defense had proved that Atmey was at the crime scene, so was Ron [=DeLite=], both of them having opportunity and motive (the blackmail), there being no evidence pointing at either of them being the murderer (Ron's testifying that someone hit him in the forehead was not supported by any evidence)? |
| 67 | ** It probably had to do with Phoenix's insistence on finishing the trial that day before Luke could be found guilty of theft in the other trial. |
| 68 | *** Nevertheless, considering how the other trial was at its first day, having proved that Atmey was at the crime scene and that the Sacred Urn was stolen before the day of the murder would be sufficient to convict him in both counts of larceny and murder. |
| 69 | *** Actually, there was evidence that Ron's story was true; as Phoenix pointed out, if he had been conscious at the time that emergency buzzer was pressed, there's no way he would've stayed in the room. |
| 70 | *** Getting the real killer is a way of removing all doubt as to Phoenix's client's innocence. While it varies from case to case, the decisive evidence to prove that a killer was the one who did it often disproves the evidence that suggests Phoenix's client did it. (In 1-3, Phoenix proves that rather than the people at Studio 2 being unable to kill Hammer, it's the other way around, that ''no one except the people at Studio 2'' could have done it). |
| 71 | * At the end of the first trial day, the Sacred Urn turns up again, and its presence and fingerprints are used as decisive evidence to clear Ron's name. It looks odd, though, and immediately after the trial ends and more twists ensue, Pearl's first suggestion is to have it checked at Kurain Village, and everyone acknowledges that it doesn't look like it did in the exhibit ad. While the actual circumstances turn out to be less sinister and it turns out to be the same urn after all, you have to wonder: did Phoenix knowingly clear his client's name using evidence that he suspected was forged? Considering how later games establish this to be a Very Bad Thing... |
| 72 | ** I doubt Phoenix consciously did such a thing. He was probably too caught up in the moment to even notice it looked different during the trial. |
| 73 | * Luke Atmey's plan does not make much sense. He wanted to avoid being found guilty of murdering Kane Bullard because of the punishment he would receive, so, he was planning to be found guilty of being Mask☆[=DeMasque=] instead because the punishment would be lighter. However, Kane Bullard's list of the things Mask☆[=DeMasque=] stole are: The Tear Of Emanon (a jewel), which costs $100.000, The Crown of Bongora, which costs $150.000, The left hand of Hades (a sculpture), which costs $240.000, and the painting of Mejeena, which costs $500.000. This means that he would have been found guilty of stealing $990.000, which would still warrant a decades long prison sentence, if not life how exactly would he have been a KarmaHoudini? |
| 74 | ** Because being convicted of being Mask☆[=DeMasque=] was his back-up plan, to be activated in case the primary plan, framing Ron [=DeLite=] for Bullard's murder, didn't work out. Also, because being popular is something Atmey likes, and it could be worth it being convicted of being a popular jewel thief. Doubly so if it means being impossible to convict of being a murderer. |
| 75 | *** Well, with so many valuable items, he would still be risking a LongerThanLifeSentence for those thefts, which, to the OP's point, [[PyrrhicVictory kind of defeats the whole purpose of the "backup plan"]]; all he'd dodge is the Chair. And once he got a taste of prison life, he would probably have rather had the Chair... |
| 76 | *** You're not considering that the law is clearly different in this world. In the third game specifically, since we're talking about Luke Atmey, we see 2 characters sentenced to Death Row for committing 1 murder each. A 19 year old girl was sentenced to death row and successfully executed a few years later for killing 1 person. Luke Atmey's backup plan IF he couldn't get off scot free was to get a charge for stealing instead of murder, which would change his sentencing from Death Row to maybe 1 decade behind bars, possibly less. It could even be possible for him to appeal those crimes after someone else is convicted for the murder, given he didn't commit 4 of the 5, with the 5th being stealing an item that has no material worth. |
| 77 | ** It is mentioned twice in the game that those numbers given are too low to be actual stolen items prices, though the matter is never explored further. As for your question, Phoenix asks almost exactly that (is theft and murder the same thing) and the answer the judge gives is that they're not even close and that the murder is a capital crime deserving capital punishment. So we can assume the grand larceny is not that capital. The sentence is probably less harsh in their law system. |
| 78 | * So... why didn't Adrian Andrews or any cleaning staff really just use white spirit to clean up all the pink mess? |
| 79 | * When did the broach get torn off? On the first day trial, a photo is presented, showing that the broach was missing from the costume of Mask☆[=DeMasque=] (Luke Atmey in disguise), because it had been torn off when Luke had moved the Ami Fey statue, ''during the theft''. However, in the second-day trial, Phoenix reveals that the security camera picture and the moving of the Ami Fey statue occurred on different days. The photo was actually taken a few days ''before'' the Ami Fey statue arrived, and Luke had actually moved the statue ''later'' so that the crime scene would match the security photo. After this revelation, it's never explained why the broach is missing in the photo, nor is it explained why the broach was found by the Ami statue. |
| 80 | * During the first day of the trial, Desiree goes off to the Atmey Detective Agency, sneaks in and steals Luke's bag, which he had left on the table since the previous evening, then brings it back to the courtroom in a last minute case-saving move that proves that Luke was indeed the man who had the Sacred Urn. Which was... exactly what Luke wanted to be found guilty of in the first place. Wouldn't his plan have gone completely off the rails if not for her, since Ron would've been found guilty of theft and thus have had the alibi for the murder case? |
| 81 | [[/folder]] |
| 82 | |
| 83 | [[folder:Recipe for Turnabout (Case 3-3)]] |
| 84 | * I know it was just a convenient way to give Phoenix proof that Tigre had been to Trés Bien, but why was Tigre stupid enough to decide to take a box of sample matches from the place where he conducted illegitimate business practise and murdered someone home with him? He's a career criminal, and a damn good one at that, given what we know about him. This isn't even a mistake, this is something he had to conscious think to go and do. Didn't it occur to him that it's a pretty bad idea? There's mountains of ways they could've given Phoenix that proof without making Tigre look like he literally planted incriminating evidence in his own office. |
| 85 | ** Well remember, the owner of the restraunt is one of Tigre's "customers", so those matches could've been taken at any point before or after the day of the murder. Also, the case had supposedly been resolved for a month so he likely wasn't thinking it'd be reopened, let alone think it would lead someone to try and examine his office or call him to the stand. Besides, it's not like a free box of matches from the restraunt is ''that'' incriminating, so it makes sense why he would overlook it. All it really proved useful for in the trial was to show he was at the scene of the crime (a restraunt completely accessable to anyone) once in his life. Careless? Yes. But "literally planting incriminating evidence in his own office" is exaggerating a bit. |
| 86 | * Furio Tigre didn't expect Glen to win the lottery and back out of the deal. He only manages to avoid suspicion by reenacting the crime and planting evidence on an unconscious Maggey. So what exactly would the murderer have done had Maggey not fainted and simply called the police? Or what if Maggey hadn't passed out for an hour, and instead woke up before or during the reenactment? |
| 87 | ** If Maggey hadn’t passed out on her own, then Armstrong could have just drugged her by offering her a drink to help calm her nerves. As for her waking up during the reenactment, she was in the kitchen at that point; Armstrong would just keep her hidden there while Tigre and Viola staged the crime and then turned her over to the police once they left. |
| 88 | * How exactly did Viola manage to impersonate Maggey? Even if Kudo saw her from behind, wouldn't he notice her bandages? |
| 89 | ** My assumption is the big bow. There's a big pink bow that goes on the back of Maggey's head when she wears her uniform, and if Viola was correctly impersonating her, maybe the bow would obscure the bandages? Besides, Kudo wasn't looking above her hips, anyway. Phoenix's cross-examination reveals as much. |
| 90 | * How did Furio Tigre manage to trick the entire court room into believing that he was Phoenix? I mean, I can understand how Maggey might have been fooled, since she only met Phoenix once before, and it's possible that Payne noticed it but decided not to say anything about it because he couldn't pass up a chance to stroke his ego with an easy victory. But the judge had seen Phoenix on multiple occasions over the past three years! Are you going to sit there and tell me that he sat through the whole trial without noticing that "Phoenix" now had bright orange skin, a thick Brooklyn accent, a nasty temper, and, to top it all off, a ''fake paper badge''? |
| 91 | ** What's important about the series of events preceding 3-3 is that they serve to communicate that, to the other characters, the only truly memorable thing about Phoenix is his spiky AnimeHair. Beyond that, I'd say that the Judge was so cowed by the imposter that he wasn't really willing to question him. Also take into account that the Judge is pretty old and the relative distance involved -- it's possible that, be it from his poor eyesight or from that distance, he couldn't tell that the badge was fake. It's actually more unsettling that ''Maggey'' didn't notice, given the physical proximity that she would have had. Remember that in her first appearance she pretty much idolized Phoenix for getting her off the hook, and it's not too hard to imagine that she would be rather familiar with Phoenix's behaviour through her correspondence with Gumshoe. She's the one who would have been the ''least'' likely to be fooled, and with her gung-ho attitude and police experience it's hard to believe that she was simply too scared of the imposter to call him out. |
| 92 | *** It would've been more believable if the Blonde Judge was the one that tried Maggey just before 3-3; he wouldn't have been as familiar. |
| 93 | ** It's specifically mentioned by Maggey on at least one dialog path that everyone in the trial had question marks over their heads, but nobody quite dared speak up. That the imposter was so intimidating may have contributed to this - it's a harsher edge than Phoenix's usual bluster, but honestly, it's not like Phoenix himself is above pressuring witnesses to get his way. In fact, it's a core mechanic. He just usually doesn't do it to the other courtroom figures (the judge and prosecutor). |
| 94 | ** It's entirely possible that Maggey is a bit of an idiot (remember, she's like a female Gumshoe, not too bright) and took the imposter at his word; he may be a better actor than we give him credit for, too. |
| 95 | ** He went on vacation and got a tan. His badge got a tan, too. |
| 96 | ** All jokes aside, it ''is'' very possible that Tigre's got his bright orange skin sometime after the entire incident. Remember that it was a month later. It's not as though it's completely out of the picture. Not to mention, we see "Phoenix" in the case's into, and not only does he not have orange skin, he looks exactly like Phoenix, and is even sweating in the same way as him. It's very probable that, outside of his temperamental personality slipping through, that Tigre did a genuinely bang-up job with the impersonation. To the point where everyone was generally able to put their doubts to one side, and convince themselves it's not worth bringing up that Phoenix seems different then usual in some areas. "He seems kinda different, like that weird temper, but it's probably just my imagination, right? Maybe he's just going through some personal problems, or something like that, best not to bring it up". That kind of thing. I'm sure if the impersonation was ''truly'' horrible that some characters would've questioned it, especially someone like Maggey. |
| 97 | *** Except that it's not possible. Maggey immediately recognizes his tan when you show her the picture and states that he explained her how he got that on a business trip to Hawaii, all of which could only happen when he was representing her in court. |
| 98 | ** Alternatively, make-up is an option. Like mentioned above, in the intro, you can see him without red skin. And, as for the fake badge, not only is it very tiny in the in-game courtroom sprite, but just about everyone is either seated behind him (the spectators behind him) and the rest are so far apart that they likely couldn't tell. |
| 99 | * Pheonix eventually learns that an accident with Furio Tigre's scooter colliding with Viola Cadavarini's car somehow caused enough physical damage to Viola to warrant a $1,000,000 surgical procedure. I'm not saying it's impossible but going by the image shown during the case, she plowed into him and she ends up receiving the brunt of the damage...from hitting a ''scooter with a luxury car''? Tigre's scooter isn't even that badly mangled by it (it has some dings but it runs okay enough to get him around regardless). |
| 100 | ** I suppose it depends on how fast they were both driving. Assuming Tigre was speeding (which isn't unlikely, given his personality), then crashing into Viola's car could conceivably both knock him backwards and cause her a significant amount of damage. |
| 101 | ** After hitting Furio, Viola may have panicked, and swerved her car into a tree, wall, or other such obstruction. |
| 102 | ** Wall of meat that he is, Tigre could have definitely suffered just as much potential damage as Viola and simply walked it off. The $1,000,000 surgery might have been fluffed up a bit because the mob wanted to make use of Furio. |
| 103 | ** Perhaps Viola wasn't wearing a seatbelt? People usually die when that happens, and Viola does say she almost died. Tigre's scooter wasn't destroyed and he seems unharmed so my best guess is it hit in a manner where he also ended up driving the scooter over the top of Viola's car, which made her accident worse but saved him serious injury. |
| 104 | * The prosecution's argument for what Maggey's motive is has a giant hole: The theory was that her motive was to steal the winning lotto ticket. But why would she have the poison in the first place? There was absolutely no way of knowing ahead of time that the guy with the winning lotto ticket would be in the restaurant on that exact day, and I think it's safe to assume that she doesn't carry it around all the time, and it's doubtful a restaurant would just leave a deadly poison sitting around. |
| 105 | ** The prosecution wanted to paint Maggey as a murderer. It sounds ridiculous, since we already know that Maggey's not the murderous type, but they might have assumed that Maggey was carrying around poison just in case she finds a victim she can gain something from. It's a bad theory, but this is the same place we got the whole 'she wants to murder him for his lottery ticket!' thing from. |
| 106 | ** Since when Payne is a good prosecutor? Any lawyer worth his salt would've shown that argument is flimsy, but the lawyer in this case was ''trying'' to lose and making an appeal is harder than just defending the case. |
| 107 | ** The lack of reason for her to have the poison with her doesn’t negate the fact that it was found on her person — sure, it may be unlikely, but according to the alleged witness, there was no one else at the table, and Maggey was the one who poisoned the coffee. The suggested argument would be like a lawyer seeing a video of his client committing a murder, and trying to discredit the video by saying his client didn’t have a motive. |
| 108 | * Why didn't Tigre just ask Glen for the virus CD, and explain to him his situation? I understand that the virus was illegal, and so he was excited when he won the $500,000 on the lottery because he could pay it with clean money. Presumably, him handing over the virus was his last resort. However, couldn't Tigre have just gone, "Look, I actually owe a violent criminal $1,000,000 and I need to get it now, or I'm as good as dead. I really need that CD, it'll literally save my life. I can sell it for the money I need. So if you give me the CD, I'll consider your debts paid, you'll get to keep your clean lotto' money, and I won't die. Everyone will be happy". |
| 109 | ** His excitement had nothing to do with wanting to pay off his debt with clean money; he was excited because he wouldn’t have to give up a multi-million dollar virus as collateral. The game never implies that he had some moral objection to making money off the illegal virus. |
| 110 | ** Plus, Tigre, being the HotBlooded macho asshole he is, would ''never'' admit that he's in trouble with a higher-up. A loan shark like him can ''never'' show weakness to someone who owes him money, lest they stop fearing or respecting him. |
| 111 | * During the first recess, Maggey suddenly declares that she loathes Gumshoe's guts because he didn't openly declare on the stand that he believed her to be innocent. Even leaving aside the fact that Gumshoe had previously been rebuked plenty of times (and even threatened with wage deductions) by Edgeworth and both von Karmas for interjecting his own opinions while on the witness stand, did she forget that the only reason she was even able to get a retrial in the first place was because Gumshoe ''didn't'' believe she could be a murderer? Or does she genuinely believe that Gumshoe is such a sadistic asshole that he'd get her a retrial just so that he could personally watch her be declared guilty again? |
| 112 | ** Did Phoenix actually ''tell'' her that Dick was the one who asked him to defend her? For all she knew it was Phoenix trying to help her, she might not have known about Dick's involvement. |
| 113 | ** The larger problem here is that, in 2-1, Gumshoe did pretty much the same thing when testifying and Maggey merely took it as Gumshoe being dumb. Then again, after being in jail for a month, she probably TookALevelInJerkass. |
| 114 | * If the crime happened a month ago, why was there still police tape and a large stain on the table from the incident. The case was closed, at least to them at the point so it wouldn't be disturbing anything. Did Armstrong just never bother to clean up? |
| 115 | ** When you examine the messy table, Phoenix postulates that it’s still under police investigation. Remember that the “trials” you play through in these games are more akin to preliminary hearings, meant to decide whether the case warrants an actual proper trial. Because an initial verdict was reached a month ago doesn’t mean the case is solved and done with. |
| 116 | * Why did they bother acting out the murder for Kudo to witness? They had Armstrong in their pocket; they could've simply closed the restaurant after the murder and had Armstrong testify against Maggey. |
| 117 | ** Armstrong owed money to The Tiger, which could have come to light and cast doubt on the situation in the worst-case scenario. It also brings it to a he-said she-said situation where Armstrong vs Maggey is all that the court can see, why would you trust Armstrong saying there was only 1 guy if he was in the kitchen, after all? Adding an unbiased extra witness that can not only testify that Armstrong wasn't in the room at the time but also that Maggey is lying when she says there was a 2nd guy AND that he saw Maggey put the poison in the coffee is pretty decisive evidence, if Wright couldn't figure out that the scene was played out a 2nd time it would be hard to save Maggey without convincing the Judge that both Armstrong and Kudo were either involved or wrong, which would be hard given their stories lined up and Kudo had nothing to do with the situation. |
| 118 | * When Phoenix first meets Tigre, Tigre told him HE was Phoenix Wright, and Phoenix is confused as to what Tigre's talking about. You'd think that, after thinking back to this conversation, Phoenix would later determine that Tigre was the imposter who got Maggey guilty the month before, but the convo's never brought up again, and as far as the rest of the case is concerned, it never happened. To say nothing of Tigre apparently suffering from Plot Amnesia, cuz apparently he forgot he made that claim, and the case pretends he didn't make it. |
| 119 | [[/folder]] |
| 120 | |
| 121 | [[folder:Turnabout Beginnings (Case 3-4)]] |
| 122 | * While Phoenix is in the hospital, how does he know that Dahlia has come back if he hasn't gotten out yet? |
| 123 | ** Two possibilities. 1: He heard about it on the news or through a correspondent. 2: He doesn't, and he is only saying as much because he can feel it in his gut. |
| 124 | ** The answer is just that Phoenix knows there's a woman that looks '''a lot''' like Dahlia and knows him from somewhere despite denying that she attended the same university as him. Not only that - he didn't know Dahlia was hanged until Edgeworth told him late in the second day of investigation in 3-5. For all Phoenix knew, it looked like Dahlia was back and had dyed her hair black. Pay attention to his reaction upon seeing Iris in the newspaper article Pearl brought at the start of 3-5, and it makes more sense. |
| 125 | * Why is the obvious contradiction that The people on the bridge are facing each other, there is no way the defendant could push her down not able to be pointed out? |
| 126 | ** Because people can move. It's not difficult to assume that the victim had turned around at some point. |
| 127 | * Valerie Hawthorne's age is given as 23. Much attention is given to a then five-year-old incident in which Valerie, as a detective, played a significant role... but [[ImprobableAge she would have been 18 at the time?]] For that matter, 23 is pretty young to be a detective! |
| 128 | ** Age, in many respects, is but a number in ''Ace Attorney'' and doesn't affect anyone's profession or skill level. For example, Franziska became a prosecutor at age 13, Pearl is an incredible spirit medium at only age 8, etc. |
| 129 | * In case 4, how did Valerie and "Melissa" get to the Dusky Bridge area on the day Valerie was murdered? If they drove, where were their cars? For that matter, did the culprit really carry around a knife, a tripod camera, a spare change of clothes (so that she could be photographed as Valerie and herself), a scarf, and possibly a phone and watch and umbrella and lockpick all over the wet mountain that day? |
| 130 | ** Dahlia is CrazyPrepared. After all, ''five years ago'' she had convinced Terry to agree to take the poison they left at the temple, right before she faked her own death without his knowledge, ''just in case'' they happened to meet up again in circumstances that would threaten her. Also, she must've taken Valerie's scarf after killing her, and may have already had a coat that would look the same in the black-and-white photo her camera took even without the obscuring drizzle. As for getting there... got me. I'm more surprised that Dahlia was able to get the necklace -- wasn't this what Terry used to kill himself? -- back after the trial. |
| 131 | ** Considering that their SuicidePact appeared mutual to Terry, she might have had a necklace of her own. (See below.) She just didn't say its contents weren't intended for ''her''. |
| 132 | * How was Terry Fawles able to afford to hire Grossberg's law firm? |
| 133 | ** Grossberg and the rest of the firm had nothing to do with it; it was ''just'' Mia, a greenhorn who happened to take a personal interest in the case. Presumably she took it pro-bono or at least at a reduced rate, and Diego tagged along as co-council for, well, obvious reasons. Grossberg himself may not even have heard about the case in particular detail until after the fact. |
| 134 | * What exactly was Terry Fawles hired to tutor Dahlia in, especially with his mental condition? I understand that if Mr. Hawthorne hired him, he probably wouldn't have really cared to give the man a background check, but it's still strange. |
| 135 | ** She was probably just lying about that, and they met through other (probably more suspicious) means. Especially considering Dahlia didn't even mention they were dating at all. |
| 136 | * How did Terry Fawles get those marks on his face? It looks like he had an encounter with three layers of barbed wire. However, the game states that he escaped when a police wagon crashed. There shouldn't have been barbed wire involved, right? Was there a previous failed escape attempt? |
| 137 | ** Same way Matt Engarde got his. They're just there. Call it character design. |
| 138 | * Even given Edgeworth's mentor, the fourth case really doesn't paint a good picture of the prosecution office if they're willing to prosecute a death row convict while spending half the case covering up the fact that they possess incontrovertible evidence that the prior murder ''didn't even happen''. And nobody seriously addresses this? |
| 139 | ** This probably won't raise your opinion of the prosecutor's office, but I recall that Edgeworth stated very clearly that the victim was considered "legally dead." Given the rather shitty justice system at play here, they would probably be willing to accept that, even though the person was not "actually dead", they were still "legally dead", and thus the act committed was still "legally murder". Or something like that. |
| 140 | *** Dahlia claimed that she was pushed into the river by her "kidnapper" and that everything else happened as was determined in the trial that convicted Terry. Her existence, as we learned, is not proof that Terry was innocent of kidnapping and all that. He probably should have been retrialed and convicted for just attempted murder instead, but that's where the shitty law system comes in. |
| 141 | *** Dahlia's survival proves nothing except that Terry screwed up. It's just being hanged for murder he'd be hanged for ''attempted'' murder. |
| 142 | * I'm trying to establish a clear timeline with Dahlia and that necklace and I noticed some possible continuity problems that I was hoping someone with better memory could clear up. Dahlia and Terry buried that vial of poison five years before she met Doug Swallow. Was it a different poison, or did she eventually go back when she was dating Doug when she was 19-20(and they made it clear they dated for only a short time) to really poison it after she heard Terry escaped? Then after Terry's suicide, how did Dahlia get her hands on it again to pass on to Phoenix? Was it because the defense kept it and when Diego was questioning her about it she managed to poison him? |
| 143 | ** Considering that the poison in the necklace was supposed to be part of SuicidePact it's very likely that there were TWO necklaces, one for each of them. Papa Hawthorne is a jeweler, remember? Dahlia wouldn't have any problem getting more than one necklace. |
| 144 | * How did Maya not know Godot? He was Mia's boyfriend, and it is heavily implied that Maya regularly visited Mia before the events of 1-2. When Diego fell into a coma, Mia must have grieved for a while too, and at least mentioned him to Maya. So how could Maya have not known or recognised him?%%Ed Note: Although the interactions questioned would be in cases 3-2 and 3-3, there would be no reason to question them until 3-4, hence why it's here. |
| 145 | ** Maybe Maya did remember Diego and that Mia had a boyfriend that "died", but just didn't remember what he looked like, or what his mannerisms were? Besides that, there's an even more probably reason: Diego was supposedly killed. Although officially it wasn't classifed as a murder, it was to the general public, and possibility therefore even Diego's friends & family. Although we're not given a reason as to why the incident was made to look like a murder, it's entirely possible that Mia thought it was one, and that Maya therefore thought it was too. If that's the case, then it stands to reason she wouldn't think Godot is Diego. Diego is dead from her viewpoint. |
| 146 | ** People don’t tend to retain long-term photographic memories of their siblings’ boyfriends. It’s perfectly logical for Maya not to have still recognized Godot after five years when she probably didn’t know him that well to begin with, especially with him sporting a mask and a different hair color. |
| 147 | * So Terry poisons himself in the courtroom and dies from it, with everyone there as a witness. After a conversation with the woman who the prosecution had confirmed had known him for years, in which it is established that she gave him the bottle as a gift. And that they had made a promise to each other. And she showed open contempt for his inability to keep it. And possibly some other things that I'm forgetting. Maybe his death marked the end of the trial for Valerie's murder, but why in the world was his suicide never investigated as its own case afterward? Surely just from the evidence seen in that courtroom, the police might look into the possibility that Dahlia either drove him to suicide or even assisted in it via providing the weapon. But apparently Diego was the only one who even considered the possibility. (Made even more glaring when compared to ''Apollo Justice'' case 4, in which the defendant seemingly poisons herself and her motive and method actually get discussed during the next trial day.) |
| 148 | ** Terry was a death row inmate. Moreover, he was a death row inmate who was having "romantic relations" with a 14 year old (even in most Japanese regions this would be considered a pedeophilic relationship), whom he then attempted to murder his girlfriend (and on the official records, actually succeeded in doing so). Then after that, he gets charged with murdering a respected female police officer. As unfortunate as it is, it's hardly unrealistic that no would've bothered to investigate his suicide. |
| 149 | ** The reason that methods and motive are still discussed for Vera’s poisoning in 4-4 is because she’s still alive to be tried, albeit in a coma. It’s laid out on the second trial day that they need to hurry and reach a verdict because the case can’t be resolved once the defendant dies. |
| 150 | * Why did they go to the Dusky Bridge to hand over the diamond? They were all in on the plan, working together. There was no witness they needed to put on a show for. The moment they had the diamond, they could go home; they didn't need to go to the bridge to hand it over. Sure, Dahlia and Valerie were going to betray Fawles by framing him for the "murder" of Dahlia, but why would Fawles go along with performing these theatrics at Dusky Bridge? Sure, he would do anything for Dahlia without question, but would even he really be that stupid? "Let's go to this obscure bridge in the mountains, you hold this knife, and now let's have Valerie approach us on the bridge" |
| 151 | ** In Case 3-5, Dahlia-as-Iris says that "she" helped with the setup of the fake kidnapping, so that might have to do with the plan. Then again, it's Dahlia who says what Iris did, so you decide if that's believable. Alternatively, Dahlia picked Dusky Bridge because she knew she could use the Eagle River as a escape route, and take the diamond with her (not taking into account the fact no one was known to survive falling into the river before she did). |
| 152 | * According to Terry, the kidnapping for ransom was premeditated by himself and Dahlia along with Valerie. Yet not only did Valerie end up shooting Fawles in their showdown on the bridge, but the note she leaves before going to meet with him talks about her "getting the whole truth from Dahlia". And yet it's argued that Dahlia killed her because she was going to atone, seemingly for her part in the scheme. So was she in on the plan or not, and if she was, why did she shoot Terry? |
| 153 | ** Best guess? Dahlia told her sister that Fawles intended to kill Dahlia once he had the diamond. But Valerie found out that was a lie, and that the entire plan was Dahlia's and that Fawles never intended to hurt her at all. |
| 154 | [[/folder]] |
| 155 | |
| 156 | [[folder:Bridge to the Turnabout (Case 3-5)]] |
| 157 | * Why does Godot blame Phoenix and then himself for the death of Mia? Phoenix wasn't there when her death occurred and Godot was ''still in a coma'' at the time. He talks about being oblivious being the worst crime imaginable, but in that situation of helplessness or unable to do anything, how could [=ANYthing=] else have been done? What other possible decisions could've been made? |
| 158 | ** I think this is intentional and related to Godot's warped, sexist worldview. He blames himself because he sees himself as Mia's protector, and blames Phoenix because he was really the only male figure in Mia's life at the time and thus by default (in Godot's view) it is Phoenix's responsibility to be alert on Mia's behalf. Godot would probably also say that it was his own carelessness that led to his being poisoned, meaning that he couldn't be around when Mia was in danger and needed his protection. |
| 159 | ** In the first game, Phoenix was noted to have been running late to Mia's office on the night of her death. It's possible Godot caught wind of this and reasoned that if he'd been on time, he could've stopped Redd White from murdering her. |
| 160 | *** Most likely he read the case file. If that's the case, then he knew Mia's phone was tapped and that April May was spying, and that Redd White knew to come before either of them arrived. The whole point really is Godot has no reason to blame Phoenix for it other than Phoenix simply being a man in Mia's life who wasn't at her side 24/7. |
| 161 | * Edgeworth states that a prosecutor can "carry a whip or drink 17 cups of coffee." I don't remember Gumshoe ever mentioning Godot's coffee addiction. How did Edgeworth know? |
| 162 | ** You’re misremembering. Gumshoe does mention the coffee addiction when he first mentions Godot to Edgeworth. |
| 163 | * Is there any way that Godot's going to get any sort of harsh sentence for actions? He was protecting someone he cared about from an obvious psychopath who had killed multiple times before. |
| 164 | ** He did kill Dahlia['s host] in defense of Maya, but what's important is that he knew about the proposed crime well in advance of when it was carried out, and avoided taking steps to prevent it by going to the police or destroying the note before Pearl found it. He also knew that Dahlia was being channeled either by Misty or Pearl when she attacked Maya, and could have found a way to subdue her without risking harm to whoever was channeling her -- instead of running her through with a sword. In the eyes of the law, a heroic act doesn't excuse a crime if it was deliberately engineered to play out that way. |
| 165 | * Why didn't Godot swing across on the same rope that carried Misty's body? |
| 166 | ** He never got the chance to actually escape, after using the rope to swing the body it ended up dangling in the middle of the bridge like it's seen on the photo, it didn't return to the other side. And he didn't swing along with the body because he had cleaning to do. |
| 167 | ** Not to mention he got stabbed in the face earlier. Do you really feel like swinging across a dangerous river on a flimsy rope connected to a burning bridge, all the while with a stabbed face? |
| 168 | * How did Dahlia successfully impersonate Iris? We've seen various members of the Fey family channel Mia, and each time, while [[{{Fanservice}} Mia's presence]] was fully visible, it was also obvious who was channeling her. Yet she managed a picture-perfect Iris imitation, and one that can fool ''the player'', unlike Tigre. She didn't display Maya's black hair, nor her usual red. She couldn't have planned for this, either; the intent was for ''Pearl'' to channel her, and both Misty and Maya's channelings occurred without her knowledge. |
| 169 | ** To cover these in order... The primary reason why Mia's channeling hosts are still recognizable is that her clothes and overall hairstyle are still the same. Iris's hair color is just close enough to Maya's that they can be forgiven for just reusing sprites of the former. And Dahlia had no idea what Pearl looked like, so that wouldn't have mattered; all she knew was that she was channeled by one person with dark hair and then by another person with similarly dark hair. With no knowledge of Misty's presence, Pearl's appearance, or why Maya would've channeled her, she assumed that Pearl was the host both times and that she also had dark hair. |
| 170 | ** Part of the problem here is that the HD trilogy slightly changes the color of Iris’s hair. In the original game, Iris and Maya both have the same jet-black hair, but the trilogy changes it so that Iris’s hair looks dark brown. It’s not a huge change, but it is obvious enough that Iris and Dahlia-channeled-by-Maya should have been easy to tell apart from each other, so the HD version cheats a bit by just giving channeled-Dahlia the dark brown color. |
| 171 | * Godot replaced his blood on the dagger with some other blood, I assume. Why didn't he just get rid of the thing? There was a raging river right below him. |
| 172 | ** If you mean the night of the deal, he couldn't find the dagger. If you mean the day of the trial, Gumshoe was the one who gave it to him, he couldn't just get rid of it after that. |
| 173 | ** It's distinctly possible that he changed the blood on the dagger at all. Why? Because the dagger, and the blood on it, is the ''only'' direct, physical evidence of Godot's presence at the scene of the crime. Which means that, if Godot's coverup of what happened failed, that dagger, and the blood on it, is the only way he has to prove Maya Fey's innocence. The reason he says that he swapped the blood on the dagger is just to throw a final hurdle at Wright, to force him to prove what really happened, leaving no doubt about who the killer is. |
| 174 | ** Why could he not find the dagger the night of the murder? The garden isn't that big. |
| 175 | *** Yes, but it ended up stuck in the back of a tree. Not exactly the first place you'd look for a knife that had been randomly flung somewhere. If that doesn't do it for you, well, Godot's vision is messed up. |
| 176 | * I'm very confused by the map of the Hazakura Temple area you receive in case 3-5. It appears to be a scale map of the area, including both temples, the hall and the bridge. The thing is, we know that bridge from the previous case, and both that case's map of the bridge and Edgeworth's estimate of its length to Gumshoe put it at twenty meters in length. The path from Hazakura to the bridge appears to be about three to four times that distance, counting meandering. So eighty meters tops. It takes ''fifteen'' minutes to walk that far, or five minutes by snowmobile? That's basically... eighty steps. Even in the cold, you should be able to take more than five steps a minute! |
| 177 | ** Not to scale? |
| 178 | ** Steep, switchbacks, tons of branches and rocks hiding under the dirt to grab at careless ankles...? |
| 179 | ** Casual reminder this place is on the side of a mountain? |
| 180 | * Once Dahlia Hawthorne realises that she's being channeled by Maya, why doesn't she attempt suicide? After all, we hear over and over again that her objective is to kill Maya. Admittedly, it appears that she's in denial over it for a while and she IS in a court room, but we already know that she's a master of hiding her true nature and it wouldn't be the first time someone has fled from, or died on, the witness stand. |
| 181 | ** Because she didn't have a method of killing herself. "Iris" was in police custody as a prime suspect in a murder investigation; she wouldn't have had a weapon on her, and she wouldn't have been able to leave the courtroom to get one without being apprehended. Especially when it was established that she escaped from Edgeworth already during the earthquake. |
| 182 | *** That was when Iris became "Iris". "Iris" could have had something Iris didn't. |
| 183 | ** No, she couldn’t have. “Iris” (Dahlia) was channeled by Maya and locked in the Sacred Cavern; she wouldn’t have had a weapon on her. When Iris freed Dahlia and was locked up in her place, Dahlia still couldn’t have gotten a weapon because she was still inside the Inner Temple when Phoenix got there. Even if she somehow had found a weapon somewhere, they wouldn’t have let her keep it once she was taken back into police custody, where she remained until the trial when the truth came out. |
| 184 | *** Even if Dahlia didn't have a weapon, she could easily bash her head in or choke herself. |
| 185 | *** Even if you really wanted to, one would think it would take a tremendous amount of effort to kill yourself that way. Dahlia could easily be restrained by the bailiff or exorcised by Maya (assuming Maya was able to do so) before she had the chance to do anything. Besides, killing Maya wouldn’t have mattered as much to her because she just found out Maya had managed to outsmart her the entire time. Dahlia was too preoccupied with how she’d been beaten by so many people to think about ways to harm herself. |
| 186 | * If Godot wanted to protect Maya, why didn't he just destroy Morgan's instructions so that Pearls would never find them in the first place? |
| 187 | ** Because Godot's desires were not as altruistic as he made himself believe. He didn't just want to protect her, he wanted to ''save'' her, like he felt he had failed to do for Mia. And he couldn't do that if she wasn't in danger in the first place. He admitted as such. He even admitted the best thing he could have done was to simply tell Phoenix, who was almost always by her side, and the whole debacle would never have happened. |
| 188 | ** There is such a thing as Hero Syndrome. |
| 189 | ** Destroying the note may not have done anything because Pearl would just report to her mom it was missing, and Morgan most certainly had a backup plan. The safest thing to do would have been Misty simply lie about the contents of the note and steal the photo of Dahlia so Pearl can't use it. Since Pearl didn't recognise Iris, she hadn't seen the picture before speaking with "Elise". Pearl got Dahlia's name from the note, so they could have lied about her name since Pearl can't read very well. Larry would be the only possible person Pearl could ask who would give her the name correctly and have no suspicious reaction, but he's also the only person Pearl wouldn't ask. Misty also could have simply explained who Dahlia was to Pearl. While Pearl may not have believed her, Pearl is also bad at hiding things, so everyone else would have found out and been able to verify what kind of person Dahlia was. Godot wanting to play the hero and Misty bringing a sword to potentially stab her baby niece with were both the problems. |
| 190 | ** When they said “Why didn’t he destroy the note?”, I don’t think they meant he would destroy it and then leave it at that; the real question was “Why didn’t he stop Pearl from enacting the plan?” Besides, Morgan is specified to be on death row and nearing her execution in the Japanese script, so it seems doubtful Pearl would be able to meet with her again (especially unsupervised) or that Morgan would be able to come up with a backup plan or that she would’ve enacted it when the note’s disappearance should imply that someone (potentially Maya herself) knew about the plan. In fact, unless Morgan had another picture of Dahlia stashed away somewhere, there’d be no way for Pearl to channel her. (She can’t just have Pearl search for it online; then Pearl might find out who Dahlia really is.) |
| 191 | * Why did Phoenix decide to defend Iris? At the time, he didn't know Dahlia had a twin: Iris. For all he knew, he was defending Dahlia who, most likely, escaped from prison. |
| 192 | ** It is implied heavily from Phoenix at many points that he is still in love with her. Also she constantly states that she has sins she wants to banish from herself so it's likely that Phoenix just remembered his love for her and decided to believe in her. |
| 193 | ** The last Phoenix saw of Iris was five Psyche-Locks, he wanted to protect her til he got the truth out of her. And he had reason to believe she wasn't Dahlia because none came up for going to his university. |
| 194 | ** Remember what Phoenix said after reviewing case file for 3-4. "That's not the Dahlia I know." Phoenix never really believed that Dahlia could be evil, even after she tried to kill him. When he met a girl who both looked ''and'' acted like the Dahlia he fell in love with it's obvious he believed in her, ''especially'' when she knew him. |
| 195 | ** Phoenix had no basis on which to assume that Iris was Dahlia in disguise. If she had escaped from prison, it would've made the papers, and as an attorney with ties to the case in which she was convicted, he would've heard about it. He also asked Iris if she'd ever enrolled at his university as a literature student like Dahlia had, and her answer didn't trigger the Magatama. |
| 196 | * Why did Godot try to frame Iris in the fifth case? Yeah, Iris agreed to get framed willingly, but Godot's whole goal was to protect Mia's family, right? Plus Iris is younger than him, healthier than him, female (which would presumably matter if his chauvinism is accompanied by chivalry, as is implied), etc. Is Godot really so selfish that he has to have her take the fall for what he did (which is exactly like what Dahlia did)? What makes matters worse is that it is implied that Iris agreed to take the blame because she was afraid Maya would get blamed otherwise, which would mean that she thought Godot would actually be willing to frame the very person he was trying to protect. It would be pretty crazy to kill Misty in order to protect Maya only to have Maya executed in order to protect himself! It could be argued that Godot was angry with Iris for her role in protecting Dahlia, but if he trusted her enough to enlist her help, he must have known that her goal is to protect her family. I guess maybe Godot thought that he needed to stay alive to protect Maya again if Morgan kept trying to kill her? Or maybe he thought Iris was going down anyway because of how Bikini saw Iris desecrate Misty's body? |
| 197 | ** In retrospect, at no time did Godot ever say that Iris killed Elise/Misty. He never really pushes for a guilty verdict in court (though the game still gives you one if you run out of "health"). He spends a large portion of the time in court trying to force Phoenix to present better arguments about why Maya is innocent. He doesn't ever seem to want to say who did it or even attempt to suggest that Iris did. He still admitted that the plan called for Iris to "take the fall" if they couldn't keep track of Pearl, though. |
| 198 | *** Iris "taking the fall" is a mistranslation. In the Japanese version, Godot's line was referring to her taking the fall in the event that ''Morgan's'' plan went through, which was to have Dahlia kill Maya and then frame her twin. |
| 199 | ** Keep in mind that it's possible Godot knows that Iris was, to some degree, involved in her sister's evil activities. If that's the case, it'd make sense that he wouldn't particularly mind if she took the fall for the crime. It would seem the sort of rationale he'd follow, that it'd be a fitting punishment for her letting Dahlia poison and murder people, and put him in a coma. |
| 200 | ** Given that Godot hated Dahlia so much that he was prepared to risk Misty's OR Pearl's life to take a stab on that long-dead person... Perhaps he has a subconscious dislike of Iris just because she looks exactly like Dahlia? As such, her life would be of the least concern to him, especially considering her own willingness to sacrifice herself in the name of Godot's self-righteousness. Although it does show that Godot, for all his championing of the "men must protect women" cause, apparently was fine with making an exception for a girl he didn't particularly care about to protect his own hide. However, one must not forget that the main part of the case against Iris was carried out by Franziska von Karma -- ironically, Godot was mostly prosecuting against the very same Maya he was trying to save. |
| 201 | ** It's worse than irony. Godot was willing to frame Iris in order to protect Maya. And then "Iris" claims that Maya did it... and he agrees with that assertion? At that point, the only rational explanation for his actions in court is "he'd do anything to defeat Trite". Interesting how both prosecutors in that case are motivated primarily by their personal rivalry with the defense. |
| 202 | *** That is the rational explanation. Godot was punishing and testing Phoenix as much as anything else during this trial. Forget the game over screens. If Maya was ever seriously in danger of being found guilty, he could very easily get the charges against her dropped by confessing and providing evidence that he was there for Misty's murder. He'd already done his part to protect Maya by "killing" Dahlia, now he felt it was Phoenix's turn. |
| 203 | * Why didn't Elise or Iris tell Phoenix, Maya, Pearl, or Bikini about the plot to kill Maya? |
| 204 | ** The plan on the whole is being masterminded by Godot, who for his own personal reasons would have insisted Phoenix and, by proxy, Maya, who'll just blab it all out to him, be kept out of the loop. Presumably, Iris and Elise trusted him, and therefore believed him to have a better justification for this then he ultimately turned out to. |
| 205 | *** Godot wanted to punish Phoenix for "letting" Mia die, so keeping him and Maya out of the loop was part of that. Very obviously, having Maya be locked in a room and channel Dahlia would have been the best possible solution to the problem short of telling Pearl about Dahlia. But he convinced Misty and Iris that it was a bad idea just so he could play hero and punish Phoenix, blame him for putting Maya in danger in the first place. |
| 206 | ** Given Iris's surprise at seeing Nick again when you first run into her at the Inner Temple, it seems possible that she had no idea he was going to be involved at all. |
| 207 | * The Shichishito was bent in case 2, so why wasn't it bent later? Did some kind of metal smith fix it? |
| 208 | ** Getting a single kink out of a (relatively) straight metal rod is easier than you might think, especially if they took it to an expert. Considering that about four months pass between Cases 3-2 and 3-5, it doesn't really seem all that surprising that they managed to repair the damage completely. |
| 209 | ** If you present the bent Shichishito to Adrian in 3-2, she offers to fix it, in considerable distress. |
| 210 | * Speaking of Iris and the Magatama, Edgeworth breaks her "psycholock" on the first day to figure out why she never went to the temple by figuring out that she was scared to go because of Larry's "blackmail letter". Indeed, Larry repeatedly testifies during the first trial day that before the incident, he spent the night waiting for Iris, but she never showed. But then on the second day, we learn that Iris was in on the entire plan and not only had a valid reason to not go to the Inner Temple, but did in fact head to Dusky Bridge to move a dead body during the time that Larry was waiting for her. We can accept that Larry both took some time to get to the bridge and was more interested in drawing the flying body than noticing a nearby Iris (even though he thought the body was Iris), but what about the Magatama? |
| 211 | ** Iris was telling the truth. She stayed in her room [[ExactWords until the murder happened]]. But the murder happened about half an hour earlier than everyone thought it did. We don't know what was exactly the plan or what Godot told her it was. We don't know if she was supposed to go there according to plan. Considering that some creepy stalker apparently knew about her and Phoenix and was threatening to break his heart it's no wonder that Iris wasn't exactly fond of the idea of going there until the murder happened and she ''had'' to go. |
| 212 | * What exactly was Iris's role in the Dusky Bridge fake kidnapping supposed to be? Supposedly she got scared and ran away, and supposedly this "betrayal" led to problems for Dahlia. What exactly was she expected to do? |
| 213 | ** Most likely, to provide some sort of escape route. If she had done her part, presumably Dahlia would not have had to jump in the river and risk her life (and the diamond) to get out of there alive. |
| 214 | ** Or perhaps she was supposed to pull a TwinSwitch with her, leaving Dahlia free to run off as somebody else with the gem. |
| 215 | * Even considering light sources, it's surprising that someone attacking someone else with a weapon could strike him in exactly one place, and have it be the one place that is covered with protective metal, in such a manner that he doesn't even need to adjust it to cover up the wound later. |
| 216 | ** FridgeBrilliance: Because it was so dark that Dahlia could only see the visor, so that's where she struck. |
| 217 | * Why couldn't Misty Fey, ''the master of the Kurain Channeling Technique, exorcise or control Dahlia's spirit and stop her from killing Maya? Presumably she has more control over the spirit's actions then, say, Maya and Pearl would. Not to mention she wouldn't have died. |
| 218 | ** Explained in ''Spirit of Justice''. The only mentioned method of control that mediums have when channeling spirits is the ability to exercise spirits on command. However, that wasn’t an option for Misty, since if she stops channeling Dahlia, that allows Pearl to channel her, which the entire plan was to prevent. |
| 219 | * Why didn't Misty just lock herself in a room and ''then'' channel Dahlia? Regardless of what Godot told her, I can't imagine that it could have come off as a better plan than "lock my body up where it cannot be used to harm my daughter". |
| 220 | ** Misty channeled Dahlia as a last-ditch plan. She was out looking for Pearl (since obviously keeping Dahlia from being channeled at all would be best) and, when it became apparent that time was running out and Pearl couldn't be found and stopped, she resorted to doing the channeling herself. As for why she didn't ask Iris to tie her up, Iris was elsewhere, doing jobs for the temple. Most likely Misty was out in the woods with no one else around when she had to get to it. As for why she didn't think to just do it ahead of time, well, no one knows precisely how much Godot told the women. He could have somehow pitched it to them in a way that made it sound like their plan was the best to go with. |
| 221 | *** Misty saw the note, she read it to Pearls. So she knew what the entire plan was. She very much could have locked herself away and channelled Dahlia to protect Maya. |
| 222 | * If stopping Dahlia Hawthorne after she was channelled by Misty Fey was all pre-planned, why did Godot use a sword? Why did he not use a Taser, which are available for use by police and prosecutors alike? A Taser would have stopped Dahlia more quickly and from a safer distance with less risk of killing Misty. |
| 223 | ** Godot explains it. He was blinded by anger. Upon seeing Dahlia, he could only care about his hatred on her and forgot about everything else. He could have killed Pearl and he would not have cared at that point (he obviously would afterwards, but he was not taking it into consideration). |
| 224 | * Godot, Iris and Misty Fey planned to summon Dahlia in order to prevent Morgan's plan from happening right? When did Misty summon Dahlia and why wasn't Godot around her when she did summon? |
| 225 | ** They didn't plan on Misty channeling Dahlia, at least not primarily. The plan was for Misty to make sure Pearl remained with her while Godot would remain with Maya in case Pearl managed to slip away and channel Dahlia. Misty only channeled Dahlia after Pearl disappeared that night and couldn't be found; she knew that channeling Dahlia was the only way to keep Pearl from doing so. |
| 226 | * How could anybody take the murder accusation against Maya seriously after the first mention of Kurain family politics? A member of the branch family conspired to frame her for murder within two years of this game, and was convicted for doing so in that very court. Does another branch family member doing the same-- mind you, after Maya's spent two days trapped in a cavern, during which time everyone else would have free reign to fabricate evidence against her-- not draw the least bit of suspicion? |
| 227 | ** It does sort of suggest that Maya comes from a bloodthirsty family line, and people can think that the apple might not fall far from the tree--or at least, having been framed and targeted by members of her own family, it's entirely conceivable she would decide to take pre-emptive measures against someone else when family politics reared their head again. Also consider that the person who originally suggests her guilt in the final case would have seemingly nothing to gain from implicating her. |
| 228 | * Why did the last page of Morgan's letter talk about "gravely roasting the Master in the fires of Hell," or whatever it said? The note says elsewhere that Pearl just needs to channel Dahlia at the right time, with whom Morgan had planned out before her execution. Did she want Pearl to know that she was committing a horrible crime by doing this? If Pearl had been able to read that part of the letter, wouldn't it have thrown her off? |
| 229 | ** Morgan never considers anything but herself and her goals, so she probably figured Pearl would be on board for all of this. |
| 230 | * So Maya got the idea from Mia to channel Dahlia's spirit in order to protect herself. But how did either of them know that Maya's attacker was a channeled spirit, or her precise identity in order for Maya to channel her? Given the circumstances, wouldn't Maya have assumed Iris was the one who had attacked her? |
| 231 | ** Complicating matters further, Maya explicitly states in her testimony that she couldn't see the face of her attacker, so how did Mia realize that there was a chance it was Dahlia? |
| 232 | *** Maya was probably lying at that point, presumably to try and protect Godot; according to ''Spirit of Justice'', you aren’t able to channel someone if you don’t know what they look like. Unless she found the photo that Morgan had left for Pearl, she had to have been able to see Dahlia’s face. |
| 233 | ** The only explanation I can come up with is that Dahlia partook in some EvilGloating in which she revealed her entire plan while she had Maya cornered. "My name is Dahlia Hawthorne, not to be confused with my twin sister, Iris. I was actually executed a month ago, but now I'm being channeled by your cousin to kill you so I can get revenge by proxy on your sister, Mia Fey, who will definitely know who I am if you were to tell her about me." Otherwise, there's no way they could've known she was being channeled, since Maya had no idea about Dahlia and Mia was killed two years before her execution. |
| 234 | *** "Hello. My name is Dahlia Hawthorne. Your sister killed me. Prepare to die.". Jokes aside, it is completely reasonable that Dahlia would have told Maya something like that since she's dead, thus "can't be punished". That plus the fact that she would take any chance to torture Maya a little more, so maybe Dahlia telling her somthing like "this is your sister's fault" is plausible. |
| 235 | *** Building on this, if Dahlia didn’t go so far as to mention her name, Mia could have pieced her identity together based on a few factors. That she was a channeled spirit seeking proxy vengeance on Mia, the crime’s proximity to Dusky Bridge, the culprit’s resemblance to a serene, pretty girl that Phoenix was fixated on earlier… Assuming Maya was thorough enough with the details, it would’ve been pretty easy for Mia to surmise that it was Dahlia. |
| 236 | * Since Godot admits that he killed Misty on impulse upon seeing Dahlia again... Just why did Misty choose to channel Dahlia in place of Pearl? She can't have been worried that Pearl/Dahlia would actually kill Maya, since she would've been overpowered by Godot before she had the chance. And she shouldn't have been worried that Godot would harm Pearl for the same reason; discounting his violent impulse, he should have been able to subdue her easily without any harm. And in either case, if she had thought there was a risk of harm to either Maya or the person who channeled Dahlia, why didn't she do more to prevent the crime than just trust that Pearl would come to her room that night? Why would she have ever even let Pearl out of her sight? |
| 237 | * During the case, the small size of the Inner Temple side of Dusky Bridge is repeatedly brought up — it’s said to consist of something like the temple itself, a guest room, and a small storage shed. With that in mind, how were Maya, Pearl, and Godot all able to be in that small area without ever coming across each other for over a day? |
| 238 | * Why did Maya need to lock herself in the Sacred Cavern after channeling Dahlia? |
| 239 | ** Dahlia thought that Pearl, and not Maya, was channeling her the whole time. If Dahlia was allowed to roam free and then she suddenly found Pearl around... |
| 240 | ** Probably not a great idea to have a vicious SerialKiller running loose. |
| 241 | * If Morgan and Dahlia’s plan to kill Maya involved framing Iris for the murder, what would Dahlia have done if Iris had been at the Inner Temple as Bikini instructed? If Bikini were to witness the two of them there, that would throw a wrench into that part of the plan, and Iris says the only reason she didn’t go that night was because of Larry’s blackmail letter. |
| 242 | ** Dahlia probably planned on tying Iris up and hiding her somewhere while she went after Maya. She was able to overpower Iris even when Iris knew she was there, so taking her by surprise probably wouldn’t have been too difficult. |
| 243 | *If we can see right into the Sacred Cavern, why can’t we see Maya trapped inside? We should be able to talk to her and calm her down, but alas, we can’t. Surely she can’t have fainted and fallen in a perfect position to have her body out of view? |
| 244 | ** Best guess? You can see inside, but not all of it. It looks like it's pretty deep and dark. |
| 245 | ** Maya was never in the cavern as herself, only while channeling Dahlia. And Dahlia says she made a point to stay out of sight, so the cavern probably goes deeper than what can be seen from the entrance. Also, what do you mean about calming Maya down? |
| 246 | ** What I mean is, if she was in the Sacred Cavern (which Phoenix thought at the time), don’t you think he would call her name? How he didn’t think to is beyond me. |
| 247 | * How did ''Dahlia'' know the plan? |
| 248 | ** Doesn’t she explain that she and Morgan discussed it while they were both in prison? She said it was easy to arrange a meeting because they were both awaiting execution and Morgan was her mother. |
| 249 | * After the case is won, why does Gumshoe propose a celebration dinner at Tres Bien? It's too expensive for him. Even if he intends to pull the usual "and Wright's paying" stunt at the end, he's already eaten the food there, and admitted that it tasted terrible. And he is fully aware that the owner is a criminal, and even if he was forgiving of such things, the owner had literally framed the person he cares most about for murder ''and'' physically assaulted Phoenix right in front of him! |
| 250 | ** Well, for all we know, Jean could have left or been fired, and so Gumshoe has no more beef with them. (Then again, how did he know…) |
| 251 | [[/folder]] |
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