Line #50 Headscratchers/Persona2


1	'''As a Headscratchers subpage, all spoilers are unmarked [[Administrivia/SpoilersOff as per policy.]] Administrivia/YouHaveBeenWarned.'''
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3	* Why couldn't Philemon just grant Jun a new Persona when Nylarly took his? Why did he have to take Yukino's? He's Philemon, he hands Personas out like candy.
4	* Bugs the heck out of me that Jun came to get his mask, which means you get has Ultimate Persona a different way. But something about this bugs me as well... '''Why doesn't this grant him his Ultimate Persona?!?'''
5	** Wasn't his Persona ability taken away after he remembered and stopped being the Joker, so he couldn't upgrade his Persona then? (IIRC)
6	*** '''SO PUT THE MASK ON! HE DOESN'T JOIN UNTIL AFTER MT. IWATO, WHEN THEY KNOW THAT A) JUN HAS HIS MASK, AND B) THEY GRANT ULTIMATE PERSONAE!!!'''
7	*** Woah, no need to yell. Maybe Jun didn't know they granted Ultimate Personas?
8	*** Eikichi, Lisa, Maya, and Tatsuya did. Unless the player didn't know because ViewersAreMorons. They could've put four and one together and told him. Anyway, if you find the fifth hidden room, you'll see that Jun came back for his mask. Before anyone mentions it, losing his mask would be like losing his watch. Four and one makes [[FiveManBand five.]] Maybe someone started a rumour it didn't make five?
9	*** I remember hearing (but have never tested) that you still need to get the mask to get Jun's ultimate. Someone should try to confirm. Either way, it's not that you get the mask, then instantly get a new persona. For the rest of the party Philemon still has to hand them out, and in that scene he had to give Jun his persona powers back in the first place. Jun still had to deal with his issues, so he wasn't ready for his ultimate at that point. So he gets it after a bit more character development. So no, the masks don't really grant the ultimates directly, and there's no way the party could've known that's what made Philemon give them upgrades. As far as they know Phil's just in the mood to give them upgrades.
10	*** No, they still need the masks equipped. I wouldn't mind if Philemon used Black Condor's mask after the Aquarius Shrine business. And no, use Hermes in the final boss of the Aquarius Shrine, then "fulfill requirements" in the Velvet Room.
11	*** ...the masks are key items and cannot be equipped. I'm not sure what you're saying here. And I know perfectly well how to get Chronos, thank you. I never gave a hint I didn't. As for why Philemon didn't show up for Jun...I don't know. Because he's a lazy bastard and was off getting drunk with Nyarlathotep. But giving Jun Chronos from the beginning wouldn't make Chronos an ultimate at all, he'd just be Jun's starter and Jun would never upgrade, which more or less translates to no character development, so I'm really not sure what you want here.
12	*** Nyarlathotep --> Chronos?
13	*** According to the Megami Tensei wiki, you need the masks. I'm saying: it took CharacterDevelopment for Philemon to use the masks to grant Ultimate Personae, didn't it? Jun had development, but Philemon did nothing of the sort with the Black Condor mask.
14	*** The implication I got from that sequence was that Jun came and got his mask at least some time before the main party did, with the implication that the Black Condor mask was used to make the Joker mask. As far as I know, you never get the Black Condor mask (as the chest that would have it is empty when you come through, and you don't get it when Jun joins) I could be wrong though.
15	*** That defeats the point of the Masquerade - a blank white, adult version of the original five-person clique.
16	*** I'm not sure what you were referring to exactly, but notice that Joker and his outfit doesn't really "match" the rest of the Masquerade, both members and executives. Different type of outfit (white "school" uniform as opposed to the robes that most of minions wear and the grey/dark coats and colored scarves that the executives wear) and noticeably different style of masks. I doubt any thing that the Joker does/wears will "defeat" the purpose of his own little cult.
17	*** His own little cult? A small personal cult couldn't end the world by forcing a conspiracy theorist to stab someone, so that... god, this game is weird.
18	*** Except it could, because it spread rumours about how that would cause the end of the world in a city where rumours were becoming reality.
19	*** Said city had most of it's inhabitants joining them. And as for what I said first, it defeats the point of the plot - the Masquerade are meant to be white versions of the original one.
20	*** Excuse me if I come off as rude, but when was this said? All that is said is that the Masked Circle was a corrupted version of the original group, with the Masked Four being basically being "opposites" of the other main four cast members, devoted to fulfilling the prophecies of In-Lakech. The color of the masks isn't really important. (And Joker's mask and outfit are mostly white anyway)
21	*** BTW, who's gonna change the Masquerade to the Masked Circle?
22	*** (Warning, incoming wall of text.) The thing is, Jun never forgot his friends from ten years ago. While the others suppressed their guilty memories, ''Jun never forgot'' and nursed a grudge for years. Likely, he went and recovered his mask at some point well before then - and it's not that the masks themselves grant the Ultimate Personae, it's that for Tatsuya, Maya, Lisa, and Eikichi, recovering ''their'' masks was an important step in recovering their memories and continuing their personal developments so they could unlock their Ultimates. The significance of the masks, not the masks themselves. But Jun got his mask back early, and under Nyarlathotep's influence the significance of the mask was twisted - it became a symbol of something outside of himself (the Circle, which he's separated himself from) instead of rediscovering a different facet of himself and his relationships. Not that the Masquerade was ever meant to grow out of control like that - Jun spread the rumor of the Joker granting wishes because he wanted to make people happy and prevent the troubles that plagued his life (this is a mix of WordOfGod and events in the game). Only as people took advantage of the Joker rumor, they started appending extra rumors to it. The Joker became a capricious trickster figure as people started wishing for things that were hardly nice at all, and the idea of a special elect whom the Joker favored over others grew out of it. Mixed with Papa Nyarly's influence and Jun's memories of the Masked Circle, an inner circle of Masquerade masters was formed and the Masquerade itself grew out of control. Every time someone blamed something weird and unpleasant on the Joker (and Sumaru City people are awful, making wishes for horrible things at the drop of a hat), it twisted Jun and the Masquerade further. Special elect and/or social club transforms into conspiracy transforms into ''ancient conspiracy'' with secret knowledge and oh suddenly there are Nazis because conspiracy theories are just like that. In all this, Jun's mask doesn't actually matter and recovering it wouldn't cause some grand epiphany or emergence of lost memories because he never lost them, and the mask doesn't mean the same thing to him that it does to Tatsuya and the others. Jun instead gains his Ultimate by going through the Aquarius Shrine because it means he's become a member of the TrueCompanions once more, fighting at their side and trusted implicitly by them despite having been their nemesis for most of the game thus far.
23	* If Apollo is fire-based, then why is he weak to ice? Shouldn't the ice melt?
24	** Apollo is a sun god- according to ''WesternAnimation/TheMagicRoundabout'', you can freeze the sun with magic. Y'know, like Bufu and Lily's Jail?
25	** Oh, that makes more sense. Although, what's Lily's Jail?
26	*** [[JapaneseRanguage Release Jail]] is the ultimate Ice Spell in the same vein as Deadly Burn, Twinkle Nebula, etc. in the game found only on Ellen's ultimate persona Gabriel which itself is only found in the game's BonusDungeon.
27	*** Oh, ok.
28	* Why was Hitler Bowdlerised and the swastikas changed to crosses in the psp version? its not like either is being portrayed as good, hitler ''is'' still evil...
29	** New laws in Japan.
30	** I also heard that the changes are more accurate to history, so it might partly also be that.
31	*** It's more Japan than America - today, you wouldn't be able to get away with someone like, say, Michael Jackson.
32	*** Speaking of which...in Shin Megami Tensei II, you encounter a dancer called Mr Thriller who bears a resemblance to...yeah. He says something like feeling like a kid in a candy store. Yeah.
33	*** I didn't know that. But references are allowed - as are dead crazy people. coughcoughMaster Therioncoughcough
34	** According to the ''SMT'' Wiki, the CERO prevents "people with a real background" from appearing in fictional media then... Okay, so... Wait. No. Just, no. If that's the law [[LogicBomb then how do you explain the billions of games, movies, mangas, etc. featuring historical figures that are still being made/published to this day]]?! [[VoodooShark That doesn't make any sense]]!
35	*** Because it's only CERO, and it's a new rule.
36	* Why are the characters shadows members of the Masquerade?
37	** Because they were created through a rumor that the main characters were members of the Masked Circle/Masquerade and were responsible for the bombings. After defeating King Leo, Maya has the children they saved spread a counter rumor. The counter rumor stopped the party from being "converted" to the Masked Circle, but the original rumor created doubles who were members.
38	* Where did the name "Innocent Sin" come from if the first half of the game was never released in America?
39	** It was called that on the PSX game's [[http://images.wikia.com/megamitensei/images/2/22/Innocentsincover.jpg cover]] in English under the Japanese title.
40	* So which is the canon now, the original, or the PSP rerelease, which got rid of anything Nazi-related?
41	** They're both just fine. Hitler with sunglasses is still Hitler.
42	* Is this true what I heard about the Eternal Punishment PSP version not being released in NA and PAL because it's "too late" in the PSP's "lifespan"? Why? Their system's "lifespan" sure as hell didn't stop them with Persona 3, 4, and Persona 5. (The [=PS3=] was already out for about a year when Persona 3 was released.)
43	** Well, you can attribute it to low sales in Japan (about only 200 000+ units, compared to the 900k for P3P and 700k for P2:IS), which probably spooked Atlus for a localisation. Besides, the only reason given was "Unusual Circumstances"
44	* Why is that when Hitler is using the Lance of Longinus to fight the party, none of his attacks are automatically fatal?
45	** In-game battles being [[GameplayAndStorySegregation abstractions of how the battles are actually being played out narratively.]] Like, if it wasn't represented by sprites and by characters taking turns, and was an animated cutscene or something similar we probably would've seen things like the party barely dodging or letting their Personas tank his attacks.
46	* Since the bet had been resolved, how come Nyarlathotep could get Okamura to stab Maya, or why couldn't Philemon stop him or her?
47	** The bet hasn't been resolved as they haven't stopped him yet; Nyarlathotep still had one more trick which was killng Maya and ending the world through a chain of rumors which relied on her death. As for Philemon not doing anything, remember that he [[AllPowerfulBystander only guides and chooses his "proxies" as well as taking an observer role towards whatever events unfold.]] ''Why'' he chooses not to interfere isn't explicitly stated, but it's implied he wants humans to prove their constructive potential on their own.
48	* What exactly was Tatsuya's betrayal of his friends? All of the IS team made it clear that they had no intention of giving up their memories - that they intended to force the world to let them have their cake and eat it too. For some unexplained reason, only Tatsuya was successful at this, but it doesn't change the fact that he was following the same plan everyone else was.
49	** That also brings up another point in my mind; Couldn't they have just kept their memories, so when they did go back in time, they would know what to do to prevent a disaster? It seems to me a totally viable plan.
50	** Back in time, how far? Nyaralthotep's plans were spun the second he became Jun's dad. Even going back in time just would have changed the formula to the same end. New tricks and traps, same game. Though never directly stated once (an excellent example of show, don't tell), It's part and parcel an underlying current in Eternal Punishment.
51	* Apparently, Jun was transferred from Seven Sisters to Kasugayama High because he used his Persona in his bullies before IS. But in EP, where he never played the Persona game with the others, he's shown in Kasu's uniform. What happened to him that made him transfer? He probably never played the Persona game at all, given that even when Sudou is manhandling him he neither summons nor awakens his Persona. Granted, Sudou isn't trying to hurt him, ''just'' make him remember being Joker, but being held hostage by a strange pyromaniac is a rather stressful situation and Tatsuya and Lisa actually not Tatsuya awakened their Personas without nearly as much stress (Eikichi would rough them up at worst if they hadn't been interrupted.)
52	* After the Alaya Shrine incident, why does everyone think that Maya's dead? She's alive, and the hospital has to have a record of that. Why didn't anyone tell the four kids who blame themselves? Not to mention that the old woman at the shrine mentions that her ghost hangs around.
53	** The four kids thought they were responsible for the fire that took Maya's life. They didn't tell anyone what had happened to her and they all went their separate ways after the act was done as well as severely regressed the memory of them all doing it. Presumably, none of them went to the hospital to ask of Maya because they believed her good as dead. Could they have at least tried to ask? Certainly, but at the ages the kids were, most of their bingo balls were still in the draw tank if you get the meaning.
54	** Lisa eventually did ask her dad to look up what happened and found out both "Big Sis" and Tatsuya survived. The events were still very traumatic for her, and she repressed most of it, but throughout the game she's the only one who actually remembers what they did, even though she refuses to talk about it. It's also why she thought at first that "Big Sis" was Joker seeking revenge instead of Jun.
55	* Does the Time Castle still exist after the events of the game?

Context Headscratchers / Persona2