Line #157 Headscratchers/JusticeLeague2017


1	For ''Film/ZackSnydersJusticeLeague'', see [[Headscratchers/ZackSnydersJusticeLeague here]].
2	----
3	[[foldercontrol]]
4
5	[[folder:Cyborg's origin]]
6	* In ''Batman v Superman'', Bruce had footage of Cyborg's transformation by the Mother Box, which we also saw in the Batcave. But in this movie, the Mother Box didn't even turn on until "after Superman died". So how did Luthor have footage of it before it happened?
7	** Silas may have triggered in secret an initial response to attach the tech to his son. After which it was laid dormant but started giving off signals on it's own when Superman died.
8	*** Confirmed in the Snyder cut. Victor explains that his father found a way to awaken the box to keep him alive, and that it went dormant again once he became Cyborg. It's also specified that its initial forced wakeup wasn't enough to summon Steppenwolf like Superman's death was.
9	[[/folder]]
10
11	[[folder: Did the scientists drown?]]
12	* Where were the League taking the scientists, exactly? Did they make it out of the tunnel?
13	** Cyborg gave them directions on how to get out of the tunnel. It seemed to slow to a certain height so they probably had enough time to get safe. The fight was on a much lower level.
14	** Considering Cyborg's father is explicitly shown to be alive at the end of the film, it's safe to assume that they made it out safely.
15	[[/folder]]
16
17	[[folder: Why did Cyborg not mention his dad even once after the tunnel sequence?]]
18	* Was a subplot about Silas Stone's death cut?
19	** He knew his dad was safe and so he went to deal with the issue of Superman and the Motherbox. Silas played no further role. Silas is clearly fine and well at the end.
20	** In the Snyder cut, Silas is a recurring part of the film and his role ties into Victor's subplot about coming to terms with his backstory and his father's role in it. It all culminates in Silas sacrificing himself to allow the League to track the last Mother Box after Steppenwolf claims it (long story). With Cyborg's backstory cut short for the theatrical version, Silas was left with not much to do otherwise, hence his reduced presence after the tunnel sequence and him surviving the events of the story.
21	[[/folder]]
22
23	[[folder:Superman's suit]]
24	* Clark was buried and resurrected in civilian clothing, so how/where does he get his Kryptonian suit back off screen? They missed an opportunity to introduce the handmade version as it was ComicBook/PostCrisis, with trunks. He could even quip to Bruce that Martha helped him make it.
25	** A spare (and brighter) suit up at the Kryptonian ship?
26	*** Confirmed by a DeletedScene.
27	** One would assume the suit he died in is the one repaired and kept with Martha/Lois.
28	** Colour-wise the suits haven't gotten brighter but the colour correction has lightened up.
29	** Those trunks aren't coming back. I like them, but the management don't.
30	[[/folder]]
31
32	[[folder:The return of Clark Kent]]
33	* At the end of the movie, we see Superman returning to his Clark Kent identity in civilian life, seemingly without issue. How is he going to explain his sudden resurrection? It's going to be incredibly easy for someone to put the pieces together and deduce his secret identity. ClarkKenting can only go so far.
34	** The movie doesn't actually specify that Clark Kent came back. Maybe Superman is just walking around to experience the world anonymously again.
35	** On the WMG page, still feasible that Clark was in the Witness Protection Program. However, some of Gotham's finest surely overhead Superman being called "Clark."
36	** While the police may have heard Clark, they wouldn't really understand the context. At the very least, there are plenty of Clarks in the world.
37	** They could probably just explain it as a case of mistaking the body for Clark Kent when he was actually alive and just missing, especially with the chaos of the aftermath of Zod's attack as well as Bruce's connections covering up any evidence.
38	** IIRC, in the comics, the cover-up story for Clark's resurrection was that he was apparently buried under rubble alongside many survivors in the aftermath of Doomsday's attack, which just so coincidentally happened to be the case for the actual survivors. Maybe they'll go with an altered version of that?
39	** A scene partially shot but ultimately cut because Lawrence Fishburne had no availability saw Lois and Clark reveal who he really is to Perry White.
40	[[/folder]]
41
42	[[folder: How out of touch is Martha?]]
43	* When Martha is trying to encourage Lois to be the reporter she was, Martha tells her how much Clark was proud of her reporter instincts. While funny, how does Martha mix up Lois being hungry for good stories with being thirsty? She wouldn't have much exposure to that phrase.
44	** That's the point. She doesn't know what "thirsty" means, she just got the words mixed up. She is an emotionally distraught middle-aged woman; she can be forgiven for slipping up once in a while.
45	** That still doesn't explain how she confused a phrase she's never heard for one she's used her entire life. It's poorly set up and just plain forced.
46	** What makes you think "hungriest woman" is a phrase Martha's used her whole life? She outright says it's something ''Clark'' used to say about Lois. Martha is a farmer's wife from Nowheresville, Kansas, why would she be discussing reporters her whole life? This is just nitpicking at this point.
47	** Better question; why the ''hell'' was Clark talking to his mom about how horny his girlfriend was?
48	*** He wasn't. Martha is saying Clark talked about how hungry Lois was ''for news stories''. She says "thirsty" because she's old and got the words for "want food" and "want drink" mixed up in her head.
49	*** Or more likely it's just a regional quirk. "Hungry for X" may be the version of the metaphor used in Metropolis, while "thirsty for X" is the version used in rural Kansas.
50	[[/folder]]
51
52	[[folder:Leaving the Mother Box unattended]]
53	* After the Justice League uses the Mother Box to revive Superman, it flies out of the Kryptonian ship and lands on a car. Why didn't at least one of team secure it while the rest deal with a confused Superman? If they did so, Steppenwolf wouldn't have snatched the Mother Box that easily.
54	** I'm just chalking it up to them all being in shock that it actually worked and dealing with him being back alive. Yeah, Bats or WW should've thought to go and bring it back but... yeah.
55	** You can see the "Oh, Crap" reaction that the League members have, right about the same time as the audience.
56	** Probably they didn't expected the thing to fly around and were at the moment more worried about surviving crazy Superman.
57	[[/folder]]
58
59	[[folder:Medieval knights burying the Mother Box?]]
60	* In the movie, when men, the Atlantians, and the Amazons were burying their Mother Boxes, men were shown as Medieval knights on horses burying their box. Were these the same men that fought alongside the Atlantians, the Amazons, and the Greek gods against Steppenwolf? If so, why were they wearing Medieval armor thousands of years in the past before the Greek gods were killed by Ares?
61	** It may possibly speak to unknown or mythical (just less so than the Atlanteans, for example) human cultures before "known history", comparable to Robert E. Howard's [[Franchise/ConanTheBarbarian 'Hyborian Age']].
62	** Combined with the flair for epic storytelling on display in ''Wonder Woman'', the true story may also contain a few embellishments.
63	** Not remotely medieval or even historically accurate (their armors have vague shades of lorica segmentata, i.e. armors from UsefulNotes/TheRomanEmpire, but that's about it). It's better to think about the ''Conan the Barbarian'' thing. TheTimeOfMyths, basically.
64	** Perhaps it's a nod to the idea from Creator/GrantMorrison's ''Comicbook/SevenSoldiers'' about the primeval Camelot that has many later incarnations.
65	[[/folder]]
66
67	[[folder:Superman's rebirth in general]]
68	* At the end of ''Batman v Superman'' the final scene is of Clark's coffin and the slight dirt levitation that happened when he flew for the first time in ''Film/ManOfSteel'' which signified that he maybe he wasn't 100% dead. But in the prior movie (chronologically) it's pretty much verified that he is 100% dead as opposed to being in some kind of unconscious stasis mode or something. Would he have come back regardless without the Kryptonian engine due to his body still soaking up yellow sunlight or what?
69	** Bruce specifically says that they don't know what state Superman is in, leaving it conveniently ambiguous for speculation and hand-waving.
70	** It shows the bodies of Kryptonians on Earth are in a special state. At the very least their ability to fly continues to exist after death. The non-decomposing nature makes it viable to use the motherbox. He's basically in the exact same state when Doomsday killed him.
71	*** One of the theories about his resurrection in the comics is that his body had soaked up so much solar radiation that he just needed to take in more to 'jump-start' him back to life; the dirt levitation could have been some hint of his residual solar energy just after the funeral, without actually being a sign that he had enough energy to come back to life.
72	** Maybe he would have came back to life without the "pool" and box, but would you really wait for that to happen? You have an evil alien overlord collecting 3 items around the world in order to take over the planet. It's better to revive Clark NOW, than wait for him to come back to life, which could take weeks, or MONTHS. By then, the planet would be a hellish world infested with parademons.
73	** Remember, "mostly dead" means still a little alive. So, it makes sense that Clark would be in some kind of stasis. In the original comic storyline, it was keeping him out of the sun by burying him that almost killed him completely.
74	*** Regarding the use of CGI to cover Cavill's moustache, it would have made more sense to see Superman come out of the coffin sporting a bit of facial hair. This would have shown that it wasn't going to be impossible for him to be awoken, just very difficult.
75	** Even in humans, death is a process, and usually not an instantaneous one. A person who is deemed legally dead due to brain damage can still become a donor of living lungs, kidneys, etc. An un-embalmed human body that's buried within a day or so will probably still have a few living cells in it; in Clark's case, such still-living cells just happen to have endured longer than human ones would have, and released their accumulated solar energy bit by bit, to little tangible effect apart from scattering some dirt.
76	[[/folder]]
77
78	[[folder:The green stuff]]
79	* After Aquaman rescues the fisherman and drinks some beer, he's horrified to find green stuff on his hand before diving down to Atlantis. They never explained that.
80	** It's Parademon blood. He rescued a guy who was claiming that an alien had crashed through his boat and was chalking it up to hysteria. Then he notes the green goo on his hand, heads immediately back to the ocean, and arrives at Atlantis mere moments after the Parademon attack force. Later, Barry uses his powers to run through a Parademon and gets covered in green goo. Again, it's Parademon blood.
81	** But why would a Parademon crash through his boat?
82	*** Its established near the start of the movie that lots of Parademons have been moving about the planet as scouts, likely trying to confirm the locations of the Mother Boxes so Steppenwolf knows where to transport himself. They aren't terribly bright or careful creatures though, so one probably just didn't bother avoiding the boat when it dove from the sky and into the sea to check on Atlantis.
83	*** The fisherman's boat looks old and in not the best condition and was seen caught in a storm. The fisherman on-board (who appeared to be alone on the ship) may have been fearful of his boat capsizing in the storm or something, and his fear attracted a Parademon, which crashed through the ship trying to get him. It either died on impact or became too injured to successfully capture the fisherman. In any case, it left some of its blood behind in the process.
84
85	[[/folder]]
86
87	[[folder:Where is the Suicide Squad during all of this?]]
88	* There is already a superhero team on this version of Earth, the Suicide Squad. Why didn't Harley Quinn, Katana, Rick Flag Jr., Captain Boomerang, Killer Croc, Deadshot and Diablo show up to fight Steppenwolf?
89	** Because Steppenwolf was relatively stealthy this time around: he attacked Themiscyra and Atlantis who don't have any contact with the outside world, kidnapped a dozen people to hold them at an abandoned facility, teleported in and out immediately after to get the third mother box and set up shop on the site of a nuclear meltdown in the middle of nowhere. Remember it took the guy who hacked Batman by accident considerable effort to find him. Besides wasn't Task Force X dismantled after Amanda Waller's epic failure in their own movie?
90	** Task Force X succeeded in stopping a major metahuman threat in the middle of a major US city. Steppenwolf though performed the Unity in a remote spot deep in Russia with no interference. By the time the countries of the world knew something was wrong, the JL had already saved the day. Then of course the Suicide Squad most powerful members were decimated. All they had left was Deadshot, Croc, and Boomerang if we assume Harley escaped. Not exactly the team to send.
91	** Isn't Steppenwolf in Russia? Because in the Suicide Squad movie it is kind of implied that their "work" for the US government to stop national threats, so Russia is not in their "jurisdiction".
92	** A) Batman initially set up this team, and he isn't likely to be hiring criminals or lose time going after Harley (and run into [[ComicBook/TheJoker Puddin']] doing so) while the fate of the world is at stake. B) They're too weak for this fight. If the goddamn Batman was being flung around like a rag doll and mocked by the super powered characters, the remnants of the Suicide Squad have no chance.
93	** Also, the Suicide Squad seems to primarily be intended as a deniable asset/black ops team. Something like Steppenwolf is going to draw way too much attention and raise the uncomfortable question of "Why are a bunch of Belle Reve inmates out and about?"
94	[[/folder]]
95
96	[[folder:Why is Batman using shurikens as Batarangs?]]
97	* So, part of the premise of this movie is that Batman adopted the traditional ThouShaltNotKill attitude endemic to his character after Superman's death. So...why are his Batarangs shurikens? Shurikens are weapons designed to be lethal. It's REALLY hard to hit someone with a shuriken without killing that someone. So, why not use actual boomerangs for his Batarangs?
98	** Nolan's Batman used shurikens as Batarangs, tying into his ninja training, and he had a much firmer no-kill policy than this Batman. Shuriken are actually designed to wound and distract more than kill.
99	** Boomerangs for offense also quite deadly. They are also heavier and bigger. Batman is skilled enough not to inflict lethal injury to people using his batarangs.
100	** It's usually a safe bet that Batman is carrying a variety of batarangs at any given time- blunt ones, bladed ones, explosive ones, etc.
101	** "It's really hard to hit someone with a shuriken without killing that someone"? Not remotely true. It's actually the complete opposite -- shuriken are weapons of ''distraction'', meant to hit and at best disorient. It is, in fact, really difficult ''to'' score a kill shot with thrown weapons of any kind, shuriken or not. They are not the instantly-lethal weapons of death that the OP seems to think they are, not by a long shot.
102	** Batman threw a shuriken at Barry's face. Had Barry been an ordinary human instead of "the fastest man alive", he'd be dead. At the very least, he would be horribly scarred... just like those mooks that Batman branded with the Bat-Insignia, so as far as the whole "Affleck's Batman is too bloodthirsty" complaints are concerned, horribly scarring someone is tantamount to killing them.
103	*** Batman ''knows'' that Barry isn't an ordinary human though. The immediate scene before that is him stating that he knows Barry is incredibly powerful, he just doesn't know the specifics.
104	*** I mean, it's still a REALLY reckless move, but yes. Thank goodness Barry's power wasn't something like preternatural accuracy or slow-acting magic or something.
105	*** The previous movie has Bruce getting access to surveillance footage of Barry Allen in which he appears to move with (literal) lightning speed. This movie has Bruce showing a screenshot of that footage to Barry. Bruce isn't saying that he has absolutely no idea what Barry is at all capable of. He's saying that he's seen Barry in action, but doesn't really know where his powers come from or what, specifically, they do.
106	[[/folder]]
107
108	[[folder:Does this confirm that Doctor Poison's serum was Mirakuru?]]
109	* I don't know if it goes here or in the ''Wonder Woman'' Headscratchers, but anyway... now that Deathstroke is here, does his presence means confirmation that the SuperSerum that Doctor Poison created was Mirakuru (or whatever the SuperSerum that Slade Wilson took to become Deathstroke is called in the comics)?
110	** Mirakuru is strictly related to the Arrow TV show. There are various groups working on performance enhancing drugs. There is never just one chemical or cocktail. Many are accidents like say Barry Allen or Killer Croc.
111	** Mirakuru is an Arrowverse Expy of Miraclo, the drug that gives Hourman his powers. Slade Wilson took a procedure similar to what Captain America went through to get his powers, if this is following the comics.
112	** Fine, it's not actually called Mirakuru. You are missing the point. My question (that you have yet to answer) is that if the SuperSerum that Doctor Poison invented, the one Ludendorff used to fight Wonder Woman, if it's the same one Slade Wilson took to become Deathstroke.
113	** Slade has had about three seconds of screentime. We know nothing about this interpretation of the character; he may not even be enhanced at all.
114	[[/folder]]
115
116	[[folder:Green Rocks]]
117	* During Superman's revival why didn't Batman use Kryptonite to help restrain him? Giving Barry some Kryptonite to weaken Superman at fast speed makes more logical sense than bringing in Lois and hoping for the power of love to work. Hell why not use both? Weaken Superman first then use Lois to talk some sense into him.
118	** Probably was done using Kryptonite at that point for anything after what happened last time. Maybe they'll explain it later.
119	** So far the only Kryptonite known to exist was accounted for in ''[=BvS=]''. They never explain what happened to the Kryptonite spear (or Doomsday for that matter), but bringing it up again would possibly anger both Superman and the audience/critics even more. It's too soon, and Lois is "the key".
120	** It would probably be unwise to expose a newly reliving Superman to Kryptonite. It's even possible if the big gun failed, Batman did have some Green Rock left over.
121	** I refer you to my above Headscratcher regarding Batman using shurikens. The point of the movie is that Superman's sacrifice steered Batman towards adopting the trademark ThouShaltNotKill attitude endemic to most Batmen (so much so that the ThouShaltNotKill trope is called "the Batman rule" in the comics). As such, Batman didn't use kryptonite because he didn't wanna risk killing Superman.
122	[[/folder]]
123
124	[[folder:Flash's Suit]]
125	* Considering how much emphasis is placed on Barry Allen/Flash not really utilising his full potential either in terms of his powers or his intellect before he joins the team, how exactly is Barry meant to have gotten his hands on the material needed to create his suit?
126	** Bruce stated himself that the suit is made of the kind of metal they're using for ''the space shuttle''; that's not something Barry can just order online on his implied budget...
127	*** The metals used on the space shuttle are aluminum and titanium. Both are relatively common and available for purchase online and from foundries/scrappers.
128	** You can kinda get the material. Since he's not trying to build a whole shuttle, a lot less material. He could have purchased or was donated used material to build his suit.
129	** To add to this, Barry's dad mentions that Barry's working three dead-end jobs. Maybe he puts some of that money into R&D in addition to setting it aside for a criminal justice degree? It's certainly not going to paying rent...
130	*** TruthInTelevision as you can literally find and buy anything online, if you know where to look.
131	** It's even possible that he flat-out stole it. Unlikely, given his personality, but not at all difficult for a speedster. All he'd have to do is head over to NASA and look around-he could be in and out [[{{Pun}} in a flash]], with no one any the wiser as to where it went.
132	*** When Bruce referred to "space shuttle materials" he may have been referring to the heat shielding materials. Space shuttles use several kinds, from spun carbon fibers, lightweight ceramics and layers of Nomex (the fabric used to make firefighters' suits). Barry wouldn't have to steal it. Most of this stuff is stripped off and discarded after each shuttle flight; they're relatively inexpensive and easy to replace compared to most shuttle components. NASA sometimes gives this portions of this stuff away as souvenirs and for science demonstrations. Barry could have scored a large amount of it cheaply, or just pulled it out of a NASA dumpster at super speed.
133	[[/folder]]
134
135	[[folder:Steppenwolf questioning scientists]]
136	* When does he even need to question the scientists for the third Mother Box location when he managed to get the previous two by simply teleporting to their location?
137	** The Atlantean and Amazonian boxes were guarded but still comparatively public knowledge in the locations where they were being hidden; the third box had been hidden for centuries and even now was a closely-guarded secret. Maybe Steppenwolf just found the first two because he'd managed to find some official record of where they were rather than because he could somehow sense the boxes' power.
138	** Exactly, the Atlantean and Amazonian boxes were in special temples, on pedestals, surrounded by guards. Meanwhile, the STAR Labs box was pretty well hidden - it's quick, but Silas asks Victor to return the Creation Engine (AKA Mother Box) to him during their first conversation.
139	*** Which begs the question why they would do that. Ok, I don't expect them to necessarily know the extent of Steppenwolf's abilities, although with literal gods on their side that's not an unreasonable assumption to make, but they use radically different approaches. You'd think they'd made up their minds on whether "hide them in the deepest hole there is because he cannot just sense them, but if they're easy to find, no amount of guards will stop him" or "it's no use hiding them, because he'll just sense them, so we should put them under the heaviest guard possible" is the best way in advance.
140	*** The answer is simple. Each of the three allies was given a box. Each of them decided to defend it in their own way, independently. This is an added layer of security -- if each one doesn't know how the others have the box hidden or defended, they can't be interrogated about it. Really, there's only two strategies for keeping the boxes out of Steppenwolf's hands: Hide it where nobody can find it, or defend it with everything you've got. The humans knew that they alone didn't have the power to stop Steppenwolf's troops if they came looking for it, plus they're not as long-lived as the Amazons or Atlanteans, so they decided hiding it so nobody could find it was the best bet. The Atlanteans and Amazons, both being ProudWarriorRace types, and both being longer-enduring people/civilizations, decided defending it with their best troops was the right way to go.
141	** In the Snyder cut, he does need to interrogate a bunch of Atlanteans to find out where their box is being held, which is more in line with how he found the third one. As for the first one, wasn't it said that that one "called" to him to explain how he knew where it was?
142	[[/folder]]
143
144	[[folder:Secret Identities?]]
145	* Multiple times in the film characters discuss their secret identities in public such as Bruce and Arthur in the fishing village or calling Superman Clark in public. Do they just not care about secret identities?
146	** The fishing village seemed like a very small, remote place, where all the villagers knew Arthur and consider him their local hero. It's unlikely they would betray him. And Bruce said Clark's name during a high-stress situation, most likely unintentionally. Any passerby hearing "Clark" probably wouldn't connect that to "Clark Kent from Metropolis, Apt #12345."
147	** Also is it even established that these remote Icelandic villagers would know what they're saying in the first place? Not everyone in the rest of Europe-minus-UK-and-Ireland can speak English, even though many can.
148	[[/folder]]
149
150	[[folder:Steppenwolf's return and the climate of fear]]
151	* Its mentioned that Superman's death triggered fear and grief all around the world which signaled the return of Steppenwolf and his Parademons. If "world-wide fear" does the trick, why didn't events like the Cold War where the human race as whole feared the world could legitimately end at any moment?
152	** Fear and grief were needed to draw Steppenwolf back; events such as the Cold War might have inspired fear, and the assassination of Kennedy would have triggered grief, but only Superman's death inspired grief and fear on the scale needed to draw Steppenwolf back.
153	** Didn't the Holocaust, and the other genocides of the 20th Century cut dice? The ideal answer is [[WesternAnimation/RickAndMorty don't think about it]].
154	*** Most people didn't knew about the Holocaust or the Chinese killings in World War II until after the fighting was done, while other genocides from the 20th century were relatively speaking isolated incidents, with [[AMillionIsAStatistic not enough people elsewhere caring to cause world-wide fear]].
155	** Leaving aside the historical stuff and comparisons, which goes into RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement, that whole Steppenwolf was driven to come because of fear and terror doesn't make sense. Like the first time he invaded, what great event or death or outpouring of grief and fear brought him to Earth? Then at the end of [=BVSDOJ=] he was in contact with Luthor right, and that happened at the same time Superman and Doomsday were fighting. So to me there's not enough to suggest that this makes internal, metaphorical, or even symbolical sense, unless the movie wants us to believe it. It's just melodrama...
156	** We have no way of knowing which event triggered Steppenwolf’s first invasion on Earth (probably falls under Fridge Horror) but we do know that Steppenwolf was contacting Lex through an hologram, so he wasn't officially there, tridimensionally speaking. Maybe the Kryptonian Ship was telling Lex the history lesson we saw in this movie. Just because we don’t have a 100% certain answer doesn't mean it doesn’t make sense buddy.
157	** Simplest answer? The "he was drawn here by fear" is simply not accurate. A more accurate presumption is that he was in contact with or otherwise watching Earth, saw that there wasn't anyone left who could take him on with Superman dead, and made his move.
158	*** But Superman had been on Earth for mere 20-30 years. What was stopping Steppenwolf from invading before that?
159	*** Steppenwolf was in exile for a long while, perhaps it was only when Luthor inadvertently made contact with him that he became aware that Earth was now largely undefended (when he last left it it had armies of Amazons, plus gods, Atlanteans and even a few Green Lanterns). Earth being "full of fear and grief" may have just been another factor, not the entire cause. Maybe the thousands of years worth of waiting was just an added punishment from Darkseid for his initial failure?
160	*** Except it IS accurate, since the Parademons turned on Steppenwolf as soon as he started fearing for his life.
161	*** That the Parademons feed on fear doesn't mean that Steppenwolf was drawn there by fear. There's no reason to assume he works the same way, as he is not a Parademon.
162	* Also, "Superman's death triggered fear and grief all around the world"? Really? Wasn't the entire point of... that other movie that Supes was never entirely welcomed? You know, those televised debates over whether or not there should be a Superman? A protesting mob outside Congress Hall? A nuclear missile to his back while he was sorting out their colossal mess? I would expect relief from those people rather than grief and fear.
163	** Said people were not a majority, Superman was still widely popular (as seen with the huge monument erected for him in Dawn of Justice), and regardless the widespread knowledge that Superman had saved them all from a rampaging monster and was now dead and unable to help any more would have had ramifications for a world more fearful than ever of the malevolent alien beings they now know exist out there and could even be created on Earth as Doomsday was.
164	** He also got a huge monument ''before'' the events of [=BvS=], after he saved the planet from (essentially) another rampaging monster. Considering that Zod announced his presence across the entire world, while the Doomsday incident was very brief, localized and more likely then not covered up, I don't see how the situations are that much different. To clarify, I don't argue that people shouldn't have liked Kal-El or mourn his death, I just don't recall any significant evidence from the movies that they did. Yes, there was that bizarre carnival scene, but nothing to the scale that would rival the concerns and hostility we ''were'' shown.
165	** Really think about this...who did they trade Superman for? Batman, who is even more murderous and destructive than Superman, and the Suicide Squad, who are AxCrazy [[CardCarryingVillain Card Carrying Villains]]. Fear is a legitimate response. Superman may not have been well-liked, but he has a much bigger moral compass than either [[DesignatedHero Batman]] or [[VillainProtagonist the Suicide Squad]].
166	** So, in other words, they murdered the hero they needed and were left with the "heroes" they deserved. That's... accidentally brilliant.
167	** Just to address a point that went unaddressed: Superman may not have had widespread support, but a public figure's death usually makes them more sympathetic over time.
168	* Thinking back to ''[[Film/WonderWoman2017 Wonder Woman]]''...if Ares is the one who spreads fear and chaos, shouldn't his death mean stability for the human race? And if Ares can influence humanity beyond the grave (or if he didn't really die), how does Superman being dead make any difference? Furthermore, addressing the above points but sticking strictly to the established DCEU events, why didn't Steppenwolf show up during World War 1? We saw a lot of fear and chaos during that time...
169	** Ares is not the sole source of chaos and fear on the planet. Indeed one of the main lessons Wonder Woman had to learn in the previous movie was that most of humanity's problems were caused by each other, not Ares' influence.
170	** But if we are going that route, "Superman's death" is ALSO not the sole source of chaos or fear, so the point of Superman's death not making a difference still stands. Yeah, humanity doesn't need a living Ares to be fearful...just like they don't need a dead Superman to be fearful.
171	** No one said they ''needed'' Superman to die to be fearful. But the living embodiment of hope and human strength dying is going to make a lot of people afraid and despairing. I don't know why you're treating this like an all-or-nothing binary.
172	** Also, they did not nuke Superman in [=BvS=]. They were aiming for Doomsday, and hit him, they just didn't anticipate that it wouldn't kill him but rather made him stronger. Superman was, at worst, collateral damage, and for a short time at that as the sun's energy was enough to revive him. And as others have said, Superman was the only one capable of taking down both Zod and then his monster zombie resurrected abomination OneWingedAngel form. Wonder Woman was able to put down Ares, and the Suicide Squad (just barely) took care of the Enchantress and her gigantic tentacle manifestations (but Superman would have barely broke a sweat). But world wars or threats of nuclear war, while terrible and affecting many people through death or implied risk of death, were not as an acute a threat to as many people (and the planet itself) as Zod, Doomsday and the Enchantress, and the terror this inspired is what emboldened Steppenwolf to come back.
173	[[/folder]]
174
175	[[folder: Moustache]]
176	* Why was the moustache even an issue? Superman DOES grows facial hair, doesn't he? He had it in Man of Steel, in his vagrant phase. His father had a beard. There's even the whole "how does Superman shave" gag! So, why would it surprise anyone that after spending weeks/months in that casket Clark would sport facial hair?
177	** He went through the whole movie without it, then the actor had grown it out, and they had to do reshoots. The issue wasn't that Clark couldn't have hair. It was that Clark couldn't not have a moustache, then have it, then not have it, then suddenly have it again within the same scenes.
178	** Also, while viewers may have YMMV on how good the CGI-moustache removal job is (I personally didn't mind it as much as other issues in this version of the movie), presumably it came off much better than to do the reverse- to apply fake moustache hair on the scenes where Cavill didn't have hair would have probably been more expensive and hard to do convincingly than just to try to airbrush his lip region to be hairless for the scenes where he ''did'' have it.
179	[[/folder]]
180
181	[[folder: Not helping Barry's dad]]
182	* Why doesn't Bruce and the team help get Barry's dad out of prison, or at least investigate Mrs. Allen's death? Surely a rich and powerful man like Bruce Wayne could pull some strings to get his dad out. I think Barry believes his dad is innocent.
183	** They may do that in a later movie, but they are kinda busy dealing with TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt during ''Justice League.''
184	** The extent of Bruce's connections in the criminal justice system is unknown. Even though he mentioned that he still has some friends in Arkham, for example, Lex Luthor seems to be a free man. He also might not have much leverage among judges, especially given his behaviour in Batman v Superman. Also, Bruce might not be willing or able to intervene so directly without concrete evidence exonerating Barry's dad. If the explanation for Nora Allen's death in the DCEU is most used one from the comics, finding such evidence is beyond Bruce's resources.
185	** A note- one would think Bruce wouldn't try to leverage judges if they had knowledge of him being Batman. Much like almost anyone else (other than those who for whatever reason need to be in on the secret) he would keep his identity an airtight secret around them. A key aspect of many Bruce Wayne/Batman characterisations is that these two identities fight crime in both of their respective capacities to do so, often in a combined approach fashion, but also done in such a way that Bruce's more philanthropic approach doesn't raise "I'm Batman" red flags.
186	** Watch the end of the movie again -- Barry mentions he got a job in a crime lab because he got a "recommendation from a friend." That's almost certainly Bruce, so they ''are'' in fact helping Barry, since Barry wants to get into forensics chiefly to exonerate his dad and do it by the book -- sure, Bruce could just throw money and connections at it, but Barry probably wants to do things the right way.
187	** We also don't know how high-profile the case was. Even if Bruce was able to pull some strings and get Henry out of prison, his abrupt disappearance could turn a lot of heads and force him to stay in hiding.
188	** Also, it's Central City. Bruce may not have as much active influence on a personal level (no real relationships with the police force or justice system, for example), and it's not something that could be handled as a business transaction. He may decide to chip in on the down low (hiring [=PIs=] and such to get leads for Barry), but that's about all he can really do.
189	** Contrary to popular belief, rich people in America can't just "buy" Get Out Of Jail Free Cards. Henry Allen was convicted of murder in a case that's been cold for at least a decade and may have been committed by means that cannot even be determined by then-current year forensics (how exactly DOES one prove a murder was committed by a time-traveling speedster from the future?). The Justice League don't help him because they can't - not without breaking enough laws to get themselves branded as criminals. Bruce Wayne can certainly pay to put private detectives on the case, including himself but, unless some evidence is discovered to prove Henry Allen COULDN'T have killed his wife (or at least introduce some serious doubts to the outcome of the trial), they won't get a new trial. Best case scenario: maybe Superman can persuade the Governor of Barry's home state to pardon Henry Allen (a Presidential pardon wouldn't fly, because most domestic homicides aren't federal crimes).
190	[[/folder]]
191
192	[[folder: Diana knowing Cyborg was spying on them in the woods]]
193	* We later find out that she was aware that Victor was watching them. My question is, why not talk to Victor then? How did she know he would communicate with her later that evening? Seems risky for her to wait for him to confront her. He could have gone back into hiding after the forest scene.
194	** The fact that he was watching them from afar tells her that he's curious but cautious. It's the same technique you'd use to approach a cute but timid forest critter: approach slowly or, ideally, let the critter come to you.
195	[[/folder]]
196
197	[[folder: Attacked by his own army]]
198	* Wouldn't a powerful big bad like Steppenwolf be able to take out his parademons? This is like having Shredder being killed by his own foot soldiers. I thought the parademons are brainless creatures with low power levels. My guess is killing them would enrage Darkseid, so he allowed them to finish him off.
199	** First, do the paradaemons kill Steppenwolf? I thought they just carried him into a boom tube for Darkseid to deal with personally. If they did kill him, Steppenwolf was unarmed and extremely outnumbered, not to mention most likely panicking considering his whole plan had gone to shit. Not hard to see how he lost.
200	[[/folder]]
201
202	[[folder: How is Lex still rich and/or powerful?]]
203	* When we catch up with Lex in TheStinger, he seems to be living pretty comfortably on a yacht, surrounded by beautiful women and enjoying some Goût de Diamants champagne (priced $1.2 million ''per bottle''), in what looks to be a cove somewhere in coastal Europe. It's probably pretty safe to assume that his assets were frozen after his arrest in ''Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice'', especially considering he seemed to have a speedy trial (if any) and was whisked away to a high security mental hospital where he probably wouldn't have the same attorney or visitation rights as he might in a conventional prison. How was he able to retain the wealth and connections that would make it possible to escape, let alone stay under the radar yet in such lavish surroundings?
204	** He probably bought this yacht before being arrested and it didn't end up confiscated, same about the pricey champagne onboard. Perhaps he managed to hide some of his money beforehand (if he can do it with a boat to smuggle Kryptonite, why not with money?), which would explain why he was able to break out of Arkham and still has some bodyguards.
205	** Luthor, like most businessmen who conduct business overseas, probably hides a lot of his wealth in foreign tax shelters, out of the reach of U.S. authorities (consequently, his tax returns must be HILARIOUS).
206	** It's also possible (neither confirmed nor denied by their exchange on the yacht in either cut) that Deathstroke may have had a hand in Luthor's escape, lured in with the promise of further "opportunities" (e.g. to take revenge on Batman).
207	[[/folder]]
208
209	[[folder: Why would a Parademon explode into a clue?]]
210	* I mean it exists to kick off the plot, sort of, but... why? How do parademons explode into three glowing cubes for Batman to stare at? Do any other parademons do that in the rest of the film when they die?
211	** Seems to have just been an easy way to kick off the plot, since the scene in question doesn't happen in the Snyder cut. Instead, the history and purpose of the Mother Boxes are told as sort of a joint effort by Diana and Victor.
212	[[/folder]]
213
214	[[folder: The Amazons.]]
215	* Why can't the Amazons leave Themyscira? In ''Film/WonderWoman2017'' it sounded like they chose to live there since "Mankind does not deserve you." At least, that's the queen's idea for Diana and the other Amazons was in that movie. In this movie though Diana says, "The Amazons are isolated to an island they cannot leave." Did I miss something? Why can't they leave? Also, it was never established in ''Wonder Woman'' when her mother said, "If you leave, you may never return" was meant as "I fear you won't come back alive" or "You're not allowed back." Does it have to do with that?
216	** In ''Wonder Woman'', the Amazons saw firsthand the weaponry mankind had developed since the Amazons had isolated themselves - and unlike Kryptonians, Amazons can't NoSell manmade weaponry; it's possible she means that they can't leave because they don't know how mankind would react to them, and if they reacted hostilely, the Amazons would be unable to handle guns and the like.
217	** Seems to me it's more like not being able to find their way back to the island. Same thing with what Diana's mother said. I saw no reason to believe she would bar Diana from coming back.
218	[[/folder]]
219
220	[[folder: Lex's finances]]
221	* At the end of the movie, Lex is shown on his private yacht, drinking Gout de Diamants[[note]]which has a price tag of roughly $1.375 million USD per bottle[[/note]], having escaped from Arkham, and contacted Deathstroke. I could maybe buy that he made it so that Deathstroke owed him a favour and he was calling said favor in, but in all cases I know of where a rich person was sent to jail, the government will usually seize their assets (which I believe they'd do in Lex's case, considering Lex was likely going to spend life in Arkham if he didn't escape). Where'd he get all that money from?
222	** He's Lex Luthor. Either he A) had someone else hide his money for him, B) actively went in and stole his money back after he got loose, or C) made sure the vast preponderance of his money was ferreted away in places it wouldn't be tracked by the government.
223	** Or he made more money. He's supposed to be a genius, after all.
224	[[/folder]]
225
226	[[folder: Batman's Armor]]
227	* In ''Batman v Superman'' Bruce used a heavily modified armor to fight against Superman. He was able to tank punches and even getting thrown into a building and through walls with minor damage. It also gave him increased strength (after he shot Superman with Kriptonite grenade, he kicked him like, 10 meters away) So why didn't he use that armor in the last battle? He could have been a lot more efficient at fighting Parademons and taking damage from them than he was in the regular suit.
228	** In ''Batman v Superman'', Batman practically had the homefield advantage - remember, Superman came to him; the armor struck me as a more defense-inclined one; however, when going up against the Parademons, Batman's technically on the offensive. He never tries to go up against Steppenwolf directly, so it's possible he figured that his regular armor would be enough against the Parademons due to his encounter with one at the start of the movie.
229	** Also, remember that the armor didn't work nearly as well as he had thought it would, and that was in a straight one on one. Against a multitude of opponents, the armor would likely have slowed him down too much, and ended with him getting swarmed and torn apart. In a melee like he's anticipating, he's better served by doing what he does best. Stay mobile, hit fast, and hit hard.
230	[[/folder]]
231
232	[[folder: Wonder Woman blocking machine gun fire with her wrist armor; speedster tiers]]
233	* The scene in the bank brings up a few questions. Why does Wonder Woman ever carry a shield? It seems like almost nothing can hurt her, and what can hurt her she can just block with her wrist armor. Makes the shield seem like needles extra weight. If she's really that fast, why bother recruiting the Flash? Seems like the team already has a speed expert. And once Superman joins the team, Flash's role becomes even less valuable.
234	** Both are chalked up to differences in scale. The wrist bracelets are fine for small arms fire (pistols, [=SMGs=]) and a certain level of energy weapon (Doomsday's laser attacks) but her film showed she was forced to use her shield for more substantial cover under heavy machine gun fire, and to deflect an incoming mortar. Same would apply for things like rocket-propelled grenades and massive energy weapons. Also, she's a fast moving heroine, but she can't stack up to the other speedsters. Hence why the Flash was called upon to jump start Superman's resurrection (he also generates ''lightning'' at high speeds) rather than her. Fans had issues with Superman being comparable in speed to the Flash, yes, so the filmmakers will have to correct for this in future instalments by showing the Flash to be the fastest once he unlocks his full potential (edit: arguably, this was achieved as early as the Snyder cut, where he ran fast enough to unwind time, in so doing healing injuries devastating enough to disintegrate Superman, and then jump start Cyborg's effort to destroy the Unity. Just imagine what his own film will depict!). So the speed tiers go like Flash > Superman > Wonder Woman (not sure how to compare Aquaman's speed through water to the others at this point but he is certainly speedy in land to be able to nearly intercept Superman, Cyborg ("only" jet-powered velocities) and Batman are at the dead last).
235	*** Regarding the comparative speeds, keep in mind that Flash is, at that point, just barely starting out in the whole "being a superhero" thing. All he knows is that his powers enable him to move and react FAST. He hasn't yet started really pushing what he can do, because there's not yet been any real need to.
236	*** Most modern interpretations of the Flash postulate that he is at least an order of magnitude faster than Superman because he has access to the Speed Force and Superman doesn't. There's plenty of evidence that Flash can leave Superman eating his dust when necessary: in the League's fight with the newly-resurrected Superman, the Flash is astonished to find that Superman can even come close to Flash's speed, but still dodges most of his strikes with relative ease. Chalk it up to Barry not yet really testing his limits.
237	*** In that scene, it wasn't so much ease, more that as his speed is so vast that he clumsily has to shift into dodging even while his strides are still flinging him around at supreme velocity, and a bit of luck to be able to barely dodge Superman's blows. Not complaining about that depiction, just describing how it was shown.
238	** She has no use for the shield in that scene, so she doesn't carry it in that scene. That doesn't mean it's useless, as proved by the fights against Steppenwolf later on. If she can't keep him at a distance long enough with the bracelets then nothing's better than her shield to block his electro-axe strikes. It already was useful against Doomsday in this regard, she's basically the League's [[DamagerHealerTank Tank]] as long as Superman's not there.
239	[[/folder]]
240
241	[[folder:Air bubble]]
242	* Why does Mera need to make an air bubble to talk with Arthur? If he's fully capable of being amphibian (which he would need to be in order to get down there to Atlantis in the first place), and MakingASplash powers are ''not'' common to all Atlanteans, how could they have even developed a vocal language at all with their apparent need to make an air bubble to speak?
243	** Diana states the Atlanteans were driven under the sea -- they weren't always, so yes, they developed their vocal language on land.
244	** The air bubble may have been to give them privacy.
245	** With ''Film/{{Aquaman\|2018}}'' revealing that only certain people in Atlantis can breath both in water and on land thus any common folk will suffocate if they were out in the open air and Arthur is not exactly well-liked in Atlantis, the bubble might be also a defensive measure also to protect from most kinds of seedy intruders who might want to take a shot against Arthur.
246	[[/folder]]
247
248	[[folder:Why not buy the house?]]
249	* Bruce buys the bank that's holding the Kent Farm in foreclosure. Yes it's just a stupid joke because Bruce is '''RICH''' but why didn't he just buy the house?
250	** If Batman's identity is ever compromised, villains are going to go over Bruce Wayne's financial operations with a fine-tooth comb -- and some of them have a very fine comb indeed. By buying the bank and not the house, Batman is making sure Superman's identity is not compromised if his is.
251	** Another reason might be to protect the Kents' pride/honour. By buying the bank instead of straight up buying the house, he's allowing them to continue making payments on it or working off the debt. Buying the entire house for them would make them feel beholden to him or feel like they're a charity case.
252	** Also, if he bought it through his company, buying a bank is a lot easier to explain to a board of directors than buying one singular house out in Smallville, Kansas.
253	** All of the above, plus he now has access to an obscure, small-town bank to launder any transactions needed to fund Justice League activities. Multiply by a few dozen other such banks, and he could fund the League while selling the idea to Wayne Industries shareholders as diversification of assets.
254	[[/folder]]
255
256	[[folder: Barry's Powers]]
257	* How did Barry gets his Speed powers, if he doesn't get the police lab job until ''after'' the JL movie? Isn't part of the mythology that Barry was in the police lab (with or without a Dark Energy wave, like the tv show) when he got struck by the lightning?
258	** It's a divergent version of the mythology. Given that ''Man of Steel'', ''Wonder Woman'' and ''Aquaman'' have all gone back to their lead character's' origin stories and explained how their powers came about, we can expect the same (or some of the same) for the ''Flash'' movie if it ever gets off the ground.
259	[[/folder]]
260
261	[[folder: Why did Cyborg take off all his clothes for the final battle?]]
262	* ... and how did that go over with the rest of the team? Did he just start stripping on the flight over?
263	** He's not exactly rolling in cash, and he still needs clothes to change back into when the fight's over. Besides, it's not like he's showing off anything.
264	[[/folder]]

Context Headscratchers / JusticeLeague2017