Line #126 BrokenBase/SuperSmashBros


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8	%% This page has had a history of misuse and it will be for the better if it never goes down that route again.
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11	%% Please do not add any Broken Base or Base Breaking Characters entries for ''Ultimate'' until at least six months after the release date.
12	%% Remember that Broken Base is for prolonged conflicts and that any entries right now are kneejerk reactions.
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16	Sometimes, [[BrokenBase there is an issue in the fandom too big]] to just "[[{{Tagline}} Settle it in]] ''[[Memes/SuperSmashBros Smash]]''." To briefly describe it, the fanbase has been divided on several aspects: which game is the best of the series, [[CasualCompetitiveConflict and whether the games should be played casually or competitively]], which leads to divisions regarding the use of items and which stages to play with, creating CharacterTiers, and of course who should be on the roster. Many unofficial ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBros''-themed communities and forums, such as Smashboards or /r/smashbros, generally have a large divide between casual and competitive players, with [[VocalMinority the most vocal]] being seen as the stereotypical fans.
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18	[[folder:Characters]]
19	* '''[[Franchise/{{Pokemon}} Pikachu]]''': A base-breaking SeriesMascot in its home series, Pikachu is generally well-received in ''Smash'' but one particular aspect causes it to retain this status: [[HighTierScrappy its gameplay mechanics]]. In all its appearances, Pikachu has been a small, hard-to-hit, very speedy combo-oriented character who can completely ''invalidate'' some taller and/or slower characters. This got to the point that it's been one of the absolute best characters in ''64'', ''[=3DS/Wii U=]'' '''and''' ''Ultimate'' at some point, and also top 10 in ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'', with even some of its matchups against fellow top tiers approaching CurbStompBattle status. Combined with the reasons for its contention in its home series and its cutesy voice and design becoming much more irritating in a heated battle,[[note]]which, in any other context, are [[RidiculouslyCuteCritter part of the appeal of Pikachu's character]],[[/note]] many are sick of Pikachu automatically making life hell for any tall and/or heavy characters that may join the roster and wish it could be fundamentally rebalanced to make things fairer for the rest of the cast. On the other hand, in every game except ''64'', [[https://www.ssbwiki.com/Category:Pikachu_players_(SSBM) it has few]] [[https://www.ssbwiki.com/Category:Pikachu_players_(SSBB) professionals relative to]] [[https://www.ssbwiki.com/Category:Pikachu_players_(SSB4) its position on]] [[https://www.ssbwiki.com/Category:Pikachu_players_(SSBU) the tier list]], and due to its [[DifficultButAwesome skill ceiling]] it never reached ''the'' top spot in any game after 64. This reached a head with MovesetClone Pichu in early versions of ''Ultimate'', which embodied and exaggerated every criticism of Pikachu: nigh-impossible to hit, extremely dominating and damaging combos, and overly skewed matchups in its favor, all topped off with its overly cutesy design, voice and presentation making it ''infuriating'' to face in intense competitive matches. Before it got {{Nerf}}ed, ''Ultimate'' Pichu was one of the strongest examples of a HighTierScrappy in the entire series, and an exaggerated demonstration of why many players groan when facing its big brother.
20	* '''[[Franchise/{{Pokemon}} Jigglypuff]]''': When Jigglypuff was first included in ''64'', it was one of the more popular characters in [[Anime/PokemonTheSeries the anime]], but as time went on the character went out of focus, causing a drastic drop in overall popularity; despite this, Jigglypuff has a perfect attendance record in all ''Smash'' titles. One half of the fandom values the character despite how out of place it is, usually due to nostalgia and a feeling of fondness for it being one of the original 12 characters. The other half loathes it for [[GrandfatherClause existing for the sake of tradition]], accusing it of stealing roster spots from more desired characters, whether they be newcomers or veterans. 20 years of fighting later, ''Ultimate'' finally laid the argument to rest at E3 2018, where every single veteran made their return and several highly coveted newcomers ([[Franchise/{{Splatoon}} the Inklings]], [[Franchise/SuperMarioBros Daisy]], and [[Franchise/{{Metroid}} Ridley]]) were introduced in one fell swoop, satisfying both ends of the spectrum at last - although debates remain on whether it should stay for the inevitable roster cuts coming to ''Smash'' games after ''Ultimate''.
21	* '''[[Franchise/SuperMarioBros Princess Peach]]''', for similar reasons to Pikachu: her gameplay mechanics, layered on top of the BaseBreakingCharacter status she keeps from her home series. In her case, it's her floating mechanic, which has shot her to top-tier status in ''Melee'' and even moreso ''Ultimate'', largely because she is considered to "hog" a fairly generic gimmick that could easily be given to other levitating characters like Ganondorf and Mewtwo (as in ''VideoGame/ProjectM'') to give them more of a fighting chance. Thus, most of the ''Smash'' resentment towards Peach comes from fans who are upset about her being the only "floater" in the cast (aside from her MovesetClone Daisy) and benefiting greatly from it while other canonically levitating fighters are left to languish and suffer in the low tiers,[[note]]the aforementioned Ganondorf and Mewtwo have consistently been low- or bottom-tier fighters, while their ''Project M'' incarnations have been consistently very viable[[/note]] and again like Pikachu this isn't helped by her "cutesy" design and presentation, which can make her more annoying to face in a heated battle despite being otherwise endearing. Notable is that in a 2021 Japanese popularity poll of ''Ultimate'' fighters, both Peach and Daisy placed within the bottom 5.
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23	%% Do not re-add Ganondorf. The debates regarding him are not vitriolic enough to warrant this status.
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25	* '''[[VideoGame/MetroidZeroMission Zero Suit Samus]]''': She was ''Brawl's'' dark horse for her interesting moveset, and added more variety to Samus' playstyle. As the game's most famous example of MsFanservice, her beautiful looks and serious but alluring personality also won over the hearts of many fans. However, a separate, large faction despises her for being [[CharacterTiers a much better character]] than Varia-suited Samus (which completely violates ''Metroid'' canon), [[BestKnownForTheFanservice attracting people]] uninterested in the ''Metroid'' games, and giving Samus too much of a reputation as a "sexy blonde chick" rather than a powerful warrior — a debate that spills over to the ''Metroid'' fandom. There's also the issue of her alleged oversexualization in ''3DS/Wii U'' largely due to her CombatStilettos; she retains them in ''Ultimate'', but complaints around her reduced ever-so-slightly by turning her into a genuine AmazonianBeauty and toning down her MsFanservice assets slightly, and by even more deliberately distancing its depiction of Samus Aran from her reviled ''VideoGame/MetroidOtherM'' personality - a game where complaints about Samus' sexualization (Zero Suit and all) came to a head. As with the entire ''Metroid'' franchise, she is also a case of GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff, with ZSS being a notably popular fighter in the West but achieving a very poor 50th place in a Japanese fighter popularity poll.
26	* The ''[=for 3DS/Wii U=]'' version of '''[[Franchise/{{Pokemon}} Charizard]]''': Did Charizard deserve to be its own character separate from the Pokémon Trainer? Was it [[PopularityPower popular and iconic enough]] to warrant that status, or was it just unfair to Bulbasaur (Ivysaur) and Squirtle fans? Did its solo moveset make it into a solid heavyweight or a dysfunctional character due to it still using a moveset designed to work on its former team? And did the Trainer's return in ''Ultimate'' fix the aforementioned problems by providing fans of all three starters with a viable and dynamic team character, or did it strip Charizard of its identity, make it more inconvenient to solo-main it, and make it seem out of place next to Greninja and Incineroar as solo characters (along with Mewtwo and Lucario still using Mega Evolution for their Final Smashes)? Worth noting is that the Pokémon Trainer achieved an abysmal 54th place in the 2021 Japanese popularity poll, despite the character slot consisting of five very popular entities (including Charizard) and the poll winner being another transforming character (Pyra/Mythra); it can be deduced that some fans simply prefer the starter Pokémon to have their own identity.
27	* '''[[VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening Lucina]]''': As one of the most popular modern ''Fire Emblem'' characters, she was added to the game as a MovesetClone of her ancestor Marth. Her fans enjoyed her addition as a cool-looking female swordfighter, especially those who liked her character in ''VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening''. Detractors lambasted her for allegedly adding to the ''Fire Emblem'' "overrepresentation" in the game, much like with Dark Pit and ''Kid Icarus''. As of ''Ultimate'', however, Lucina became more universally accepted due to clone characters' rebranding as "Echo Fighters" and her becoming one of the most popular characters in competitive play, with many of her complaints instead transferring to Chrom (below) in a milder form.
28	* '''[[VideoGame/FinalFantasyVII Cloud]]''': His announcement [[ShockingMoments came as a shock to everyone]], and he became a very popular character to download and play for the sheer RuleOfCool factor in pitting him against Nintendo's greatest — especially his longtime unofficial rival Link. However, Cloud's addition was also found to be insulting for many, because instead of a character from one of the ''Final Fantasy'' games that were on Nintendo consoles, ''Smash'' gets a character from ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyVII'', the game that marked the point where ''Final Fantasy'' became more associated with Sony than Nintendo. Others are okay with his inclusion on the basis that Cloud is essentially the face of the ''Final Fantasy'' franchise for most people, regardless of whether or not he's been on a Nintendo console before. There’s also the fact that ''Final Fantasy VII'' in general has been the subject of HypeBacklash-induced BrokenBase for a long time. This died down significantly in ''Ultimate'' when ''Final Fantasy VII'' was ''finally'' announced for release on the Nintendo Switch (which some attribute outright to Cloud's inclusion in ''Smash''), to the degree that the addition of his archenemy Sephiroth was one of the most celebrated reveals at TGA 2020.
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30	%% Please refrain from re-adding Corrin - they do not qualify as they have failed to achieve the needed long-term animosity.
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32	* '''[[VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening Chrom]]''': As another ''Fire Emblem'' character, this reaction was inevitable. As the face of [[VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening one of the most popular games in the franchise]], some feel his inclusion is welcome, while others find him to be an insulting addition. Even among ''Fire Emblem'' fans, some find his inclusion to be indicative of favoritism to the 3DS era of games. On the flip side, some find him to be a harmless addition, given that he's simply an echo fighter of Roy rather than a full-fledged newcomer, and was revealed alongside multiple fighters they prefer.
33	* '''[[VideoGame/PokemonSunAndMoon Incineroar]]''': Fans of Decidueye/Mimikyu/Lycanroc/Tapu Koko believe it would have made a better "rep" for Generation VII, and others felt that Pokémon characters were already too excessive (much like the ''Fire Emblem'' examples above) and didn't need another. Even among fans of the character, there are many who believe that having him be the final base-roster newcomer to be revealed was underwhelming. On the other hand, its fans find it to be a fun, unique character due to its over the top heel wrestler persona, bringing a brand new archetype of fighter to the series.
34	* '''[[Franchise/SuperMarioBros Piranha Plant]]''': Is it a [[RuleOfFun fun]], [[FightingClown quirky]] addition that manages to be the type of completely unpredictable and objectively iconic inclusion [[UnexpectedCharacter/SuperSmashBros the series is known for]]? Or is it a lame novelty that wore out its welcome shortly after its reveal and "stole" the ''Mario'' DLC spot from several of the franchise's more requested characters, like ([[VideoGame/CaptainToadTreasureTracker Captain]]) [[VideoGame/SuperMarioBros2 Toad]], [[VideoGame/MarioTennis Waluigi]], [[VideoGame/SuperMarioRPG Mallow and Geno]]? It debuting as a LowTierLetdown on release did not help matters in the slightest.
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36	%% Please do not re-add Byleth. They haven't attracted the long-term controversy necessary to qualify for this trope.
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38	* '''[[VideoGame/SuperMarioRPG Geno]]''': Despite never being actually playable (sort of, more on that later), few characters have been discussed this much within the ''Smash'' newcomer speculation community. Geno, since he hasn't been made playable, tends to attract discussion about both how he is and isn't represented. Fans of this character from this collaboration between Creator/{{Nintendo}} and Squaresoft (before they merged with Enix to become Creator/SquareEnix) have been campaigning for years to get Nintendo, Sakurai or anyone involved in ''Smash'' to add this possessed doll to the playable roster. This is due the idea that ''Super Smash Bros.'' as a series is like a museum dedicated to video games and would love the idea of the spotlight being cast on a game (''Super Mario RPG'' in this case) that fans deem emblematic to gaming, as well as its subsequent {{Spiritual Successor}}s that also don't receive much representation. Detractors often don't see what the big deal about Geno is and feel that he's a bit too deep of a cut for a fighter for most ''Smash'' players, especially since his only major appearance was in a single game from 1996 [[note]]Granted, it isn't unusual for a playable character(s) to only have been in one game, like the Ice Climbers who only appear in ''Ice Climber'', but Geno being a ''Mario'' character that is owned by Square Enix (rather then being fully owned by Nintendo) probably has something to do with his very scant appearances outside of ''Super Mario RPG''[[/note]]. Fans often cite that [[https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/21/nintendodream3/ Sakurai has wanted Geno in the series for years]], but factors such as cooperation with Square Enix[[note]]The company has built up a reputation within the Smash community as being "stingy" with allowing their content within the game, although this has been alleviated from the DLC packs of Hero and especially Sephiroth, who came with spirits and more music tracks from ''Final Fantasy VII''.[[/note]] and apathy on Nintendo's part[[note]]In regards to more recent ''Mario'' RPG titles, Nintendo has been more restrictive on how the story and characters within the ''Mario'' Universe can be portrayed, but this is a different issue that can't be delved into now. Another rumored explanation on Nintendo's non-commitment to adding Geno to ''Smash'' is that they've heard the fan outcry for his inclusion, but are also perplexed by a lack of interest in the rest of the game. They don't see a fan demand for a re-release or remake of ''Super Mario RPG'' on the same level as Geno appearing in ''Smash'' as a fighter.[[/note]] have prevented this from happening. Geno fans often fire back that detractors dedicating their online presence to wanting other people to not be happy [[https://twitter.com/Aaronitmar/status/1340095702345666567 only further taints]] the already infamously toxic ''Smash'' fanbase, especially since detractors often seem to seek out Geno fans specifically ''to'' insult them and their wants, even on [[https://twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1369120757423296512 tweets made by Sakurai himself that happen to contain or reference Geno]]. Detractors retort that like with multiple other frequently-requested characters before him, it gets irritating seeing people touting Geno in their newcomer request and expectation lists so frequently, to the point of stymying conversation on other characters' chances. Geno being acknowledged in ''Smash 4'' with a Mii Gunner costume gave his fans hope that he'd appear as a proper fighter in the next game (especially when the infamous "Grinch Leak" implicated him among several other fan requests), but he only appeared as an equippable Spirit in base ''Ultimate''. Many of his fans held onto hope that he'd be included as DLC when his costume wasn't shown in "Mr. Sakurai Presents "Hero"", especially after Min Min proved that spirits within the base game can be "upgraded" to a fighter... but then the Geno Mii from ''Smash 4'' was unceremoniously announced more than a year later in "Mr. Sakurai Presents "Sephiroth"", with its only major change being additional cape physics. This event caused a lot of gloating among his detractors, much to the disdain of Geno fans. Similar situations have occurred with other highly requested characters being revealed as Mii costumes or Assist Trophies. And sure enough, by the time ''Ultimate'''s DLC cycle ended, Geno was not made playable, forcing his disgruntled fanbase to wait even longer for the next ''Smash'' game (which could take between 4 to 8 years) for another chance at Geno's playability.
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41	[[folder:General]]
42	* '''[[SpotlightStealingCrossover Perceived Over-representation]]''': Multiple franchises have been hit with periodic outrage, arguing that they have too much focus on them, while smaller series languish from a lack of content. The fans of those franchises are similarly vocal in their pleasure that their series is receiving so much love, and point out how it's the right of the developers/publishers to decide what's most deserving of a push or not. People are generally understanding of this treatment being given to ''Mario'' and ''Pokémon'', which are Nintendo's two biggest and most popular franchises with large casts, as well as ''Kirby'' given that it's Sakurai's brainchild and Kirby is one of the most popular characters in every game he's in, but other series with more than one or two characters have fallen into this on occasion.
43	** '''Franchise/FireEmblem''': People were fine with the series in ''Melee'', where it only had Marth and his MovesetClone Roy, and ''Brawl'', where it dropped Roy and added MightyGlacier Ike, but ''3DS/Wii U'' is when this became a big debate. The game began innocuously with two new fighters from ''Awakening'', Lucina and Robin, being added to the roster, one of which was a bonus MovesetClone character, but the DLC for the game is when the base broke. In addition to bringing back Roy from ''Melee'' as a semiclone of Marth, Corrin from ''Fates'' was also added, meaning ''Fire Emblem'' became the only series to get two DLC slots, while their playable character count tripled from two to ''six'' in a single game; since then, it's become impossible to talk about ''FE'' in ''Smash'' without arguments over how many ''FE'' characters there are versus how many there "should" be, whether Nintendo is shilling the series too hard, and so on. Chrom's and Byleth's additions in ''Ultimate'' only stoked the flames further, as ''Fire Emblem'' now had eight characters in ''Smash'', one short of Nintendo's flagship ''Super Mario Bros.'' and two short of the massive CashCowFranchise ''Pokémon'' (counting all of the Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon separately) in spite of ''FE'' not being near the same level as either in the public consciousness.
44	** '''Perceived Under-Representation''': On the flipside, there are some franchises that have generally decent representation, but are perceived as having "too little" content. Especially when they're being compared to, once again, ''Fire Emblem''. The main issue lies with the number of fighters a series has being the main, if not the only, measure used to determine how much a series is represented. The main series that people bring up the most as being "under-represented" is ''Franchise/TheLegendOfZelda''.[[note]]It currently has 6 fighters in it, but oftentimes its thought of as too little because 3 of them are a form of Link (Link, Young Link and Toon Link), Sheik and Zelda are thought of as the same character, since they were in ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'' until they were [[DecompositeCharacter made seperate characters]] and Ganondorf, who, due to time constraints, was introduced in Melee as a semi-clone of [[VideoGame/FZero Captain Falcon]], a character from a completely different series, and [[TheArtifact has largely stuck to that design since]][[/note]]. This focus on the series' fighter representation over anything else can be for a multitude of reasons: Official promotional materials and FanArt for ''Smash'' both prioritize fighters more than any form of NPC, TournamentPlay prevents Assist Trophies and most stage cameos from getting a chance to be seen, Miis (and therefore Mii Costumes) are rarely used in competitive play, and there's a general desire to play as an EnsembleDarkhorse rather than a form of Link/Zelda/Ganon, or a Mii that bears a passing resemblance to them at best. However, thinking that "representation" only counts for fighters is still a trap that many fans fall into. So, despite the fact that ''Zelda'' as a franchise has a good amount of representation outside of fighters[[note]]9 stages, 45 music tracks, 8 items, 4 assist trophies, 8 Mii Costumes, a boss (Ganon), and an entire section in the ''World of Light'' campaign[[/note]], the bias towards fighters leads people to think the series is under-represented.
45	* '''Swordfighters''': The idea that there are too many characters who fight with swords is a recurring point of mockery for a major chunk of the player base, deriding how it makes several characters feel similar and especially how the games insist on adding ''Fire Emblem'' sword-users when the series has a variety of weapons to choose from. The other side argues it is a needless complaint, especially when taking into account how a similar number of characters fight with their hands/feet or with guns and that in a series with multiple types of weapon, such as ''Franchise/FireEmblem'', [[HeroesPreferSwords it's customary for the main character]] (i.e. the one with the best chance of being featured in a large-scale crossover like ''Smash'') [[HeroesPreferSwords to use a sword]] as their weapon.
46	* '''Representing the Latest vs. the Classics''': Due to gaming culture in general evolving over time, there's been considerable contention about whether the ''Smash'' character roster should reflect that, or if it should stick to more classic and "retro" characters. This rivalry has manifested in a number of ways over the years:
47	** ''Fire Emblem'' characters commonly reflect the most recently released title at the time (with Marth being the only one who didn't come out at or near the time his games released). ''Awakening'' having three fighters in ''Smash'' is either perfectly fine because the game was a KillerApp for the 3DS and [[NewbieBoom introduced a large number of new people to the series]], or completely unreasonable because of the blatant favoritism and the fact that there are more than 20 years of games with plenty of unique and beloved characters to pick from.
48	** A potential Microsoft representative was generally welcomed across the fanbase, but who exactly that representative should be was a subject of debate for several years. This was almost entirely between the more modern [[VideoGame/{{Minecraft}} Steve]] and the very retro [[VideoGame/BanjoKazooie Banjo & Kazooie]], with characters like [[Franchise/{{Halo}} Master Chief]] being occasionally thrown around. Arguments were very vicious on whether a character from an old, beloved, but "dead" series, or someone from a more recent and incredibly popular game, ''deserved'' to be in the game more. This debate would eventually cease when both Steve and Banjo-Kazooie were added to ''Ultimate''.
49	** The DLC for ''Ultimate'' really caused this debate to intensify, first with the divide between people who were more excited for Terry Bogard being playable and people who were more excited that Sans of all characters became a Mii Costume. The former group argues that Terry is an iconic face of classic fighting games that just isn't as well known with modern audiences, while the latter group argues that Sans is a very iconic modern gaming character that shouldn't be snubbed just because he hasn't existed for as long as Terry has.
50	** Although Steve's inclusion was warmly welcomed, it also exposed a major rivalry between fans of more "classic" characters (who were excited about Terry and were expecting new fighters like [[VideoGame/SuperMarioRPG Geno]], [[VideoGame/DevilMayCry Dante]], VideoGame/{{Shantae}}, VideoGame/CrashBandicoot, or [[VideoGame/PanelDePon Lip]]) and fans of characters from more recent games that are frequently viral (who were excited for the Sans and Cuphead costumes). The former accuse the latter of only caring about the meme potential of fighters and not about what would work best with the series' original mission, frequently unfavorably citing potential fighters from trendy [[TheNewTens 2010s]] games such as ''VideoGame/FiveNightsAtFreddys'', ''VideoGame/{{Fortnite}}'', ''VideoGame/AngryBirds'', ''VideoGame/FallGuysUltimateKnockout'', or ''VideoGame/AmongUs'' as options if the group gets its way or otherwise they're concerned about the game becoming too much of an UnintentionalPeriodPiece since what's modern now isn't necessarily going to be modern forever. The latter accuses the former of having a NostalgiaFilter and believing that ''Smash'' should [[FanMyopia only appeal to 90s kids]], as well as not caring about some of the extremely popular newer games that could have representation in ''Smash''.
51	* '''[[CasualCompetitiveConflict Professional Play]]''': Easily the oldest conflict in the fanbase is whether or not the games should be played or treated competitively. Proponents note how the uniqueness of ''Smash'' as a game makes for a competitive experience that cannot be found elsewhere, and that the banning of certain in-game supplementaries (items, chaotic stages) are necessary for reducing cheesing/randomness, to ensure a more skill-driven game. Detractors state that the pro-scene's existence is a major insult to Sakurai's vision for the series — a fun casual game for friends to party around with — and that they are refusing to the play the game the way it was meant to be played. Accusations of elitism, {{Scrub}}-ism, and overall non-pleasantries are thrown abound, and even after Sakurai openly decided to design the games with the pro-scene in mind, it shows no signs of ever stopping.
52	** '''Advanced Techniques''': A core part of the division between the aforementioned groups is whether or not certain exploits/glitches — usually dubbed "Advanced Techniques" — should be used. (Whether any given technique even counts as a glitch has also been subject to debate.) Those in favor argue that they add new levels of depth to gameplay that can't be offered elsewhere. Those against argue that since most [=ATs=] aren't part of the game, they shouldn't be used at all, as they weren't part of the game's design philosophy, and thus throw the balance out of whack. The addition of complexity has its own subset — is the extra mechanical skill good for showcasing talent, or bad for increasing the skill ceiling to an unwittingly high level that most can't hope to achieve?
53	** '''Banning [[HighTierScrappy/SuperSmashBros Meta Knight]]''': In the ''Brawl'' competitive scene, Meta Knight outclassed every character in the game, causing an over-centralized meta-game involving playing Meta Knight and trying to beat him. One party wanted him banned out of fear that he was making the game too stale and that viewership/entrants would die out due to his overt presence, as well as annoyance over how dominant he was. The other party, consisting of the people who played him/liked him, were against it, as he was ultimately in a boat to the similarly powerful ''Melee'' Fox, where despite being so dominant, he could still be fun to watch/play, and removing a player's main from the game would gimp too many people. The test of time reveals that the former group had the right idea[[note]]in part because Fox in ''Melee'' required a high degree of technical skill to play as effectively, while Meta Knight in ''Brawl'' required significantly less skill to use well[[/note]], but only after the conflict became so vicious that the ''Brawl'' competitive scene died from the fire.
54	* '''Fighting Game Characters''': Whether or not ''Smash'' should include characters from other fighting games, an argument that has been around at least since the inclusion of Ryu from ''Franchise/StreetFighter'' as DLC in ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosForNintendo3DSAndWiiU'', and would continue on with ''Ultimate'' including Ken from ''Street Fighter'' at launch and Terry from ''VideoGame/FatalFury'', Min Min from Nintendo's own ''VideoGame/{{ARMS}}'', and Kazuya from ''VideoGame/{{Tekken}}'' as DLC. Detractors state that fighting game characters are inherently more boring than characters from other games, as translating their gameplay into a ''Smash'' moveset would supposedly involve simply lifting their moveset from their original games wholesale, and that a big part of the appeal of ''Smash'' is seeing non-fighting game characters and their movements from the original games being translated creatively into a ''Smash'' moveset. That's to say nothing of all of the above characters except Min Min retaining their traditional command inputs to perform objectively better versions of their special moves, which a lot of detractors believe doesn't mesh well with the ''Smash'' engine. Proponents argue that translating fighting game characters to ''Smash'' would still be interesting on some level, as it involves taking a moveset from one fighting game and translating it to another that plays completely differently (not unlike when ''VideoGame/StreetFighterXTekken'' took characters from ''Tekken'', a 3D fighting game, and translated them into a 2D style of gameplay, or how two of the guests from ''VideoGame/Tekken7'' - funnily enough, both ''again'' from ''Street Fighter'' and ''Fatal Fury'' - replicated their 2D gameplay in a 3D plane). They also point out that with ''Smash'' having evolved into a celebration of video games in general, excluding characters from popular and influential fighting games that have made their own mark on history, such as Scorpion or Sub-Zero from ''Mortal Kombat'', simply because of the genre of their home series would seem very arbitrary.
55	* '''Third-Party Characters''': While third-party characters have been around since ''Brawl'' ([[WhatCouldHaveBeen and were nearly included in]] ''Melee''), the fanbase has become increasingly divided over how many third-party characters are too many. Some believe that since the series started out as a celebration of just Nintendo, it should have stayed that way and the multitude of third-party characters the games often bring in detracts from this, while others follow a similar train of thought and see the addition of third-party characters as coming at the expense of first/second-party characters who would make for an excellent addition to the games. Conversely, other fans (including people at Nintendo itself, notably) tend to see ''Smash'' nowadays as a celebration of video games as a whole (that just happens to be made by Nintendo exclusively for their current console) and that being in ''Smash'' is the highest honor that any video game character can get, so thus, there being a bevy of third-party characters is no big deal. Even some people who don't care for them acknowledge that their inclusion gets people who don't care about/aren't fans of Nintendo's franchises to buy ''Smash'' just to try out the third-party character they like. The debate got especially heated during ''Ultimate''[='=]s life-cycle due to not only all of the previous third-party characters returning, but adding three more in the base roster and eight more via [[DownloadableContent the Fighters Passes]] on top of that, for a total of 18; to put that into perspective, over 1/5th of the current ''Smash'' roster has now hailed from third-parties[[note]]Those being ''VideoGame/MetalGear''[='=]s Solid Snake from Creator/{{Konami}}, Creator/{{Sega}}'s Franchise/SonicTheHedgehog, Creator/{{Capcom}}'s Franchise/MegaMan, Creator/BandaiNamcoEntertainment's VideoGame/PacMan and [[Franchise/{{Tekken}} Kazuya Mishima]], ''Franchise/StreetFighter''[='=]s Ryu and Ken from Creator/{{Capcom}}, ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyVII''[='=]s Cloud Strife and Sephiroth from Creator/SquareEnix, VideoGame/{{Bayonetta}} (whose games, granted, are still ''published'' by Nintendo despite being developed by Creator/PlatinumGames and the IP owned by Creator/{{Sega}}), ''Franchise/{{Castlevania}}''[='=]s Simon and Richter Belmont from Creator/{{Konami}}, ''VideoGame/Persona5''[='=]s Joker from Creator/{{Atlus}}, the Heroes of Creator/SquareEnix's ''Franchise/DragonQuest'', VideoGame/BanjoKazooie (which ''used'' to be a second-party Nintendo property before developer Creator/{{Rare}}'s sale to [[Creator/XboxGameStudios Microsoft]]), Creator/{{SNK}}'s [[VideoGame/FatalFury Terry]] [[VideoGame/TheKingOfFighters Bogard]], ''VideoGame/{{Minecraft}}''[='=]s Steve from Creator/XboxGameStudios (previously Mojang), and ''Franchise/KingdomHearts''[='s=] Sora from Creator/{{Disney}}[[/note]]. There's also debates as to whether or not third-party characters are automatically more iconic than any potential first-party that still isn't playable: Those who agree with it point to how ''Minecraft'' is the best selling game of all time, and how franchises like ''Sonic the Hedgehog'' and ''Final Fantasy'' are bigger [[CashCowFranchise cash cows]] than most Nintendo franchises who still don't have playable characters, while those who disagree point out that the games' third-party selections also includes more niche franchises like ''Bayonetta'' and ''Banjo-Kazooie'', and franchises whose popularity is very region-dependent like ''Dragon Quest'' and ''Fatal Fury'', and/or that the massive popularity of Nintendo franchises such as ''Super Mario'', ''Pokémon'', or ''The Legend of Zelda'' would mean they have characters with millions of fans that still aren't playable in ''Smash'', but that then leads to debates on whether or not the franchises have too much/too little/just enough, as mentioned in the "Perceived Over/Under-representation" sections.
56	* '''The Better Adventure Mode''': Some prefer the Subspace Emissary because it felt more like an adventure, with beautifully designed cutscenes with lots of action and humor, and having platforming and exploration to break up the fights, in addition to having co-op, while others criticized it for its generic locales and enemies at the expense of references to games the characters were from. Others prefer World of Light because while there weren't as many cutscenes, they felt it was unimportant and the sheer amount of content and bevy of references to hundreds of games from Nintendo's back catalog and other companies' libraries made up for it but was criticized by many for [[EndingFatigue going on too long]], being very shallow and repetitive, and having no actual platforming levels. There's also ''Melee's'' adventure mode, which was the shortest of them all as an alternative to Classic Mode, but was praised for its structure, great tributes to the characters' franchises (despite there being only around half of them), and hidden secret battles.
57	* '''Spirits Becoming {{Playable Character}}s''': After ''Ultimate''[='s=] launch, there was infighting over whether characters who appear in the game as spirits could be [=DLC=] fighters or not. One camp said that being a spirit in the base game meant a character could be DLC, and one camp said that being a spirit disqualified the character.[[note]]For context, a Spirit is a character who had their physical body outright destroyed by Galeem's attack, rather than merely captured. In the ''World of Light'' adventure mode, the spirits of these characters were forced into mass-produced "shells" of the captured fighters. Another thing to note is that virtually all characters in the game have spirits: Playable characters have Fighter Spirits (which are just like trophies in previous games in that they don't do anything in gameplay), characters that run facilities like shops and dojos are Master Spirits, and everything else is sorted between primary and support spirits. DLC fighters will inevitably get a Fighter Spirit to go along with it. So the argument boils down to "is the Smash development team willing to ignore the lore of ''World of Light'' they've set up and introduce a new fighter who is represented by both a Fighter Spirit and a Master/Primary/Support spirit (possibly using the same character art) who would be able to equip themselves in gameplay".[[/note]] Nothing in Fighters Pass Volume 1 proved either side to be correct: the first four members of the first Fighters Pass (Joker, Hero, Banjo & Kazooie, and Terry) are from series that are entirely new to ''Smash'', and Byleth is from a game that was released after ''Ultimate'' that had no spirits before they joined. As an aside, Piranha Plant was always planned to be DLC during the base game's development, so the base game's list of spirits reflects this. As of [[VideoGame/FireEmblemThreeHouses Byleth]]'s introduction, there's also the fact that old spirits can be renamed, as ''Zelda''[='s=] [[VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaOracleGames Dimitri]] and [[VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaALinkBetweenWorlds Hilda]] had the name of their origin series added to differentiate them from the [[OneSteveLimit same-named]] characters from ''Three Houses'', and as of the ''VideoGame/{{Cuphead}}'' spirit event, there's the fact that Spirit Battles can be changed depending on whether or not you own the DLC.[[note]]If you do own the ''Cuphead'' DLC, every ''Cuphead'' spirit uses "Floral Fury" as the song, and Cuphead and Mugman are represented by Mii Gunners in the Cuphead outfit, but if you don't, the battles use jazz-styled vanilla game music, and Cuphead and Mugman are instead represented by Mega Man puppet fighters.[[/note]] These debates can get heated as the sides argue that certain popular character requests who are all in the base game as spirits, like [[VideoGame/SuperMarioRPG Geno]], [[Franchise/{{Kirby}} Bandana Waddle Dee]], and VideoGame/{{Rayman}}[[note]]but not Assist Trophies or Mii Costumes, like [[VideoGame/GoldenSun Isaac]], [[Franchise/SuperMarioBros Waluigi]], [[Franchise/SonicTheHedgehog Shadow]], [[VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaMajorasMask Skull Kid]], VideoGame/ShovelKnight, [[VideoGame/MegaManX Zero]], [[VideoGame/NoMoreHeroes Travis Touchdown]], [[VideoGame/TalesOfSymphonia Lloyd Irving]], [[VideoGame/DevilMayCry Dante]], or VideoGame/{{Shantae}}; ''those'' debates get ''[[FlameWar even uglier]]'', as do conversations about [=DLC=] and Event Spirits like [[Franchise/ResidentEvil Jill Valentine]][[/note]], can or can't be implemented as [=DLC=] fighters in the future. It took until June 22, 2020 to settle the debate once and for all; Min Min from ''VideoGame/{{ARMS}}'' was the first character in Fighters Pass, Volume 2, and she was already a spirit when this happened. The reveal of Min Min thus proved that characters who are spirits within the base game are eligible to become full-fledged fighters[[note]]It also answers the question posed above: Min Min has both a Fighter Spirit and a Primary Spirit that can be equipped. Her fighter spirit is a different image of her (labeled as "Min Min (Fighter)") and her original spirit battle remains unchanged (and still uses a female Corrin as a puppet fighter). You can also equip Min Min with herself if you really want to[[/note]].
58	** While there is proof that ''base game'' spirits can become fighters, there is still a debate on whether or not spirits introduced in events deconfirm, particularly in terms of ''VideoGame/PokemonSwordAndShield''. Did the event from around its launch mean it won't get a fighter? Is Pokémon too much of a CashCowFranchise to let it deconfirm? Did the event's lack of mons that became [[BreakoutCharacter Breakout Characters]] after the game's launch mean one of them is being saved for a challenger pack? It should be pointed out that the characters that were chosen for the event[[note]]In Pokémon's case, The Galarian Starters, Corviknight, Morpeko and Zacian & Zamazenta[[/note]] would probably have been saved for the [=DLC=] spirit board that every [=DLC=] character comes with, otherwise the event wouldn't have been introduced. This is seen with ''VideoGame/FireEmblemThreeHouses'', which had no such event upon its release and was then saved to be introduced alongside Byleth's [=DLC=] challenger pack.
59	* '''[[VideoGame/MarioTennis Waluigi]] Not Being Playable''': Waluigi is by far the most infamous character known for not being playable in the ''Smash Bros.'' series (perhaps even more infamous than his exclusion from ''VideoGame/MarioKart7''), despite how frequently requested he is to be in the roster. When he was revealed to not be playable in ''Ultimate'', there was mass disappointment from those who were hoping for him to be PromotedToPlayable (and a handful of Waluigi fans took it too far and decided to harshly harass Masahiro Sakurai), to the point where there are several news pages about Waluigi only appearing in ''Smash Bros.'' as an Assist Trophy once again, and several fans have made their own videos where he finally ''does'' make it in the roster. His luck got even worse when a ''Piranha Plant'' was added to the roster instead of him. Some fans, however, don't mind Waluigi's exclusion, since in his home series, Waluigi has only appeared in spin-off games, is lacking in an iconic moveset, and unlike Mario, Luigi, and Wario, Waluigi has never starred in his own game, making it justified for him to not be playable in ''Smash Bros''. That said, there's also Waluigi fans who don't see why the former should be an issue, as ''VideoGame/MarioKart'' has had a tendency to be a MorePopularSpinOff from ''VideoGame/MarioKartDoubleDash'' onward, and most of Wario's own interactions with Mario are mostly restricted to spin-offs anyway-his only appearances in ''Super Mario'' platformers are being the FinalBoss of ''VideoGame/SuperMarioLand2'', and being playable in ''VideoGame/SuperMario64DS'', and ''only'' the DS remake.
60	* '''[[VideoGame/{{ARMS}} Spring Man]] Not Getting Chosen''': After months of debating who the ''ARMS'' rep would be when it was announced that ''Ultimate'' would get one on March 26, 2020, it was revealed on June 22, 2020 that it would be Min Min, rather than the SeriesMascot Spring Man. Masahiro Sakurai explained that this was due to ''ARMS'' producer Kosuke Yabuki requesting her to join the battle and believing that all of its characters could be seen as the protagonist, and did not mention Spring Man's Assist Trophy (or, for that matter, Ribbon Girl's Mii Costume) as reasons against choosing him. This is mentioned in arguments in favor of promoting Assist Trophies or Mii Costumes, but the fact neither Spring Man nor Ribbon Girl were PromotedToPlayable with this challenger pack makes it seem to others like Assist Trophies and Mii Costumes still need to wait for sequels to get promoted. Some have also felt that the push to get Spring Man in as the next playable fighter was merely just to prove a point that Assist Trophies ''can'' be promoted to being playable in the same game as their debut and not out of any real love of the character himself, and that it still wouldn't be smooth sailing for other characters with non-playable representation, as some of them come from franchises that haven't had new games for years, while others come from games that have too much content already in ''Smash'' for a challenger pack.
61	* '''[[VideoGame/XenobladeChronicles2 Rex]] Not Being Playable''': Despite being a BaseBreakingCharacter in his home game, he was highly requested during the pre-release phase of ''Ultimate'' and was commonly speculated as a duo fighter with the Aegis, only for his chances to have been seemingly nipped in the bud with the announcement of his Mii Costume as a purchase bonus for the first Fighters Pass, much to the dismay of many of his supporters. Min Min's announcement roughly 2 years later would then revive hope for his inclusion due to both of their home games being unable to get fighters in the base game due to time constraints, only for Pyra and Mythra to be the playable representatives of the game instead of him about another year later[[note]]He'd still have occasional appearances in their moveset, similar to Chrom in ''Smash 4''[[/note]]. Even after the March presentation revealed he was initially planned and was only dropped due to hardware limitations, along with his wide presence for a "support character", fans within both the ''Smash'' and ''Xenoblade'' fandoms have been split on whether this was the right choice. Those content with Pyra and Mythra state that their inclusion is justified given their [[PopularityPower popularity]], and they offer a more unique experience with them being semiclones of each other and their ability to swap. Those who wanted a playable Rex feel how only the Aegis being playable sides with his detractors[[labelnote:*]](A joke in the presentation didn't help this either, as it gave them something to focus on [[AccentuateTheNegative despite the preceding reveal of the initial plans and his large presence]]. This didn't help any Rex fans upset by his MemeticLoser status exacerbating when it looked like he would finally avert it)[[/labelnote]], panders to those [[MsFanservice solely attracted to them for their looks]], and worsens existing {{Fandom Enraging Misconception}}s for the Aegis and their home game (as surface-level arguments about [[BestKnownForTheFanservice their designs and if they're all there is to the game]] were reignited following the reveal). Another camp who wanted both him and the Aegis playable also lament how the Driver and Blade system could not be translated to ''Smash'', with some also saying the reveal [[YankTheDogsChain cheated them with how the trailer's buildup was framed]] looked like they were indeed going to be a duo fighter as previously speculated. The ambiguity of ''Smash's'' future after ''Ultimate'' certainly doesn't help this, meaning it's uncertain if Rex will even get a chance to become playable in a future installment much like Chrom before him, let alone if the Aegis (or even Shulk) will also return. Then there's the possibility of a ''VideoGame/XenobladeChronicles3'' rep and if it could stand against his chances due to theoretical resource reasons.
62	* '''Safe Speculation''': Is sticking to a small pool of characters like VideoGame/CrashBandicoot, [[VideoGame/NinjaGaiden Ryu Hayabusa]], and a Pokémon from ''VideoGame/PokemonSwordAndShield'' that seem to have a ton of points in their favor the right way to speculate, or has ''Ultimate'' 's DLC given us too many [[UnexpectedCharacter Unexpected Characters]] for these to truly be safe bets? This has especially become a heated topic of discussion during Fighters Pass 2, as it started with a character from ''VideoGame/{{ARMS}}'', a first-party considered to be extremely unlikely because it was almost three years old[[labelnote:note]]Granted, had ARMS been released earlier, a fighter from ARMS would have certainly been included in the base game itself.[[/labelnote]], and then later added [[VideoGame/FinalFantasyVII Sephiroth]], who despite his popularity and ability to fix ''Final Fantasy VII''[='s=] lack of music and spirits, was not commonly brought up as a potential newcomer. The Smash fanbase sticking to the same character choices can leave them blind to other options that in hindsight were more obvious, leading to situations where [[VideoGame/{{Minecraft}} Steve]], from the best-selling game ''ever'', was seen as a "meme pick" and not taken seriously as an option, while [[VideoGame/SuperMarioRPG Geno]] and [[VideoGame/GoldenSun Isaac]]--both characters from [=RPGs=] that only had modest sales upon release, haven't appeared in a new game in a long time, and are virtually unknown outside of the ''Smash'' community--were seen as "obvious choices" because they've been mentioned so much by other fans. There's also the argument against disregarding what are dubbed "fan rules", because there needs to be ''some'' process of elimination if the goal is to make an accurate prediction on which character will appear in ''Smash'' as a fighter. However, there comes a point where these rules are basically an individual's personal biases to justify characters they want or don't want, especially with the latter (see some of the other entries in this page such as swordfighters, JRPG characters, etc). At times, such speculation raises questions as to whether some characters constantly mentioned are out of real love for the character or series.[[labelnote:For example...]][[VideoGame/TalesOfSymphonia Lloyd Irving]] is a character that's commonly mentioned to represent the ''VideoGame/TalesSeries'', as ''Tales of Symphonia'' was a common starting point for most fans of the series simply because it was on the [[Platform/NintendoGameCube GameCube]]. However, not only does Lloyd fall under stigmatic categories (swordfighter, JRPG character, etc.), some that speculate Lloyd are unaware that more ''Tales'' games exist outside of ''Symphonia'', which is why [[VideoGame/TalesOfVesperia Yuri Lowell]], who is consistently the most popular character in the ''Tales'' series, hardly gets any mentions despite his status and ''Vesperia'' being just as popular. That said, the Lloyd Mii costume did comeback for ''Ultimate.''[[/labelnote]] Another thing to point out is that a lot of the characters that are brought up constantly are ones that fans have been asking for since ''Super Smash Bros Brawl'', which is a GamblersFallacy (my character choice didn't make it into this game, surely they'll appear in the DLC or the next game right?).
63	* '''[[EasternRPG JRPG]] fans vs [[PlatformGame Platformer]] fans''': These two sections of gamers are sharply divided on the state of the roster and from where characters should be pooled from. Namecalling is frequent in these debates, with JRPG characters frequently being derided as "generic anime swordspeople" or "[=Swordguy McJRPG=]", and platformer characters being labelled "Cereal Box Mascots" and "Scrimblo Bimblos". JRPG fans often point out that ''Smash'' and a vast majority of the companies involved in its production and licenses are Japanese, and that platformer fans shouldn't write off the chances of a JRPG character, considering how big the genre is in the country where ''Smash'' is centered and the genre has been getting awareness that's been steadily growing bigger since 2017. Another point that is brought up is that the base game already had quite a few characters from platformers.[[note]]Mario, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Samus, Kirby, Sonic, Pit, Simon, and Mega Man are the major ones, and this isn't even including other characters who also come from the same series as them or franchises in other genres who have had platforming games, like Pac-Man. However, just like how Incineroar isn't lumped together with the JRPG characters, Samus, Simon and their ilk and occasionally Pit are excluded from the entire stereotype due to their not using tropes associated with the platforming genre.[[/note]] Platformer fans feel that nearly every JRPG represented in ''Smash'' revolves around {{Animesque}} protagonist humans, humanoids, or HumansByAnyOtherName wielding a sword when there are dozens of [=JRPGs=] that go outside of that mold, and that "Scrimblo Bimblo" is a false equivalency since most platformer characters are designed to be diverse in appearance and behavior. Meanwhile, other people who don't have a horse on either side think that both JRPG ''and'' platformer fans have no room to fight over who "deserves" new content, as they both already have solid representation, when there are several other genres, such as {{rhythm game}}s, {{racing game}}s, {{puzzle game}}s, [[BeatEmUp beat 'em ups]], [[ShootEmUp shoot 'em ups]], and [[FirstPersonShooter first-person]] and [[ThirdPersonShooter third-person]] shooters, that have little-to-nothing in ''Smash'' and could use the representation much more than those two. It really intensified after Pyra & Mythra's addition, due to claims from the platformer crowd that the sudden influx of JRPG characters [[labelnote:For reference]]''Ultimate'' added Chrom, Joker, Hero, Byleth, Sephiroth, and Pyra & Mythra (as well as Incineroar, but ''Pokémon'' tends to be discounted due to it not often using tropes associated with the genre)[[/labelnote]] takes away from chances for other popular platformer characters to be showcased in the game, and since there were only two DLC slots left by this point the two groups got into nasty {{Flame War}}s about which genres the final two characters should come from. It got so bad that when a Twitter fan pool held in the leadup to E3 2021 had Euden of ''VideoGame/DragaliaLost'' beat Crash, the controversy it started caused JRPG and Platformer to trend on the site. Both sides would later take an L when the second to last choice turned out to be Kazuya Mishima from the ''Franchise/{{Tekken}}'' series, a FightingGame character. Later still, both sides would actually win out with the same final character: Sora from ''Franchise/KingdomHearts'' who happens to have elements of what both sides would want.
64	* '''Western-created content vs. Japanese-created content''': Some Western ''Smash'' fans feel that the game features too much content from Japanese creators, and feel that if the game is really meant to be a celebration of video games, it should represent the Western industry as well. These fans often lament that characters like VideoGame/{{Rayman}}, [[VideoGame/{{Halo}} Master Chief]], and VideoGame/{{Doom}}guy haven't been playable in ''Smash Bros.'' despite their overwhelming popularity in Western circles, simply because their series (and in the case of of [[FirstPersonShooter first-person shooters]], the whole genre) aren't as popular in Japan.[[note]]Notably, the few Western games with playable representation in ''Smash'', ''VideoGame/BanjoKazooie'' and ''VideoGame/{{Minecraft}}'', were popular in Japan to begin with.[[/note]] Other ''Smash'' fans will point out that a game made in Japan, by a Japanese company, is going to have a lot of content from Japanese-made series, partially due to these series being more "familiar" to a Japanese audience (and by extension, Nintendo of Japan themselves), but also because there's no language barrier or distance[[note]]It is important that the people involved with these sorts of business dealings meet in-person rather then just through something as impersonal as an email. Nintendo's headquarters is located in Kyoto, Capcom's headquarters are in nearby Osaka (a 20 minute train ride) while the other Japanese game companies that already have a fighter in Smash (Bandai Namco, Sega, Konami, SNK and Square-Enix) are in Tokyo (roughly 2 hours by train). Nintendo of America and Microsoft's headquarters are both in Redmond, Washington and are practically a 4 minute walk away from each other. Other game companies that might own desirable characters might be located further away, like say, Los Angeles, New York or Paris, France. Which might require a several hour-long plane flight and take an extremely long time and a lot of money to actually get a deal.[[/note]] to overcome to ask the companies for permission.
65	* '''Mii Costumes''': While the Miis started out as [[EnsembleDarkhorse Ensemble Darkhorses]] in ''Ultimate'' due to much-appreciated buffs, better customization options, and outfits of popular characters like [[VideoGame/{{Undertale}} Sans]] and VideoGame/{{Cuphead}} making Mii Gunner a BreakoutCharacter, the costumes started to become contentious when highly-requested characters like [[VideoGame/SuperMarioRPG Geno]], [[VideoGame/NoMoreHeroes Travis Touchdown]], [[VideoGame/DevilMayCry Dante]], VideoGame/{{Shantae}}, or [[VideoGame/{{Doom}} Doomguy/the Doom Slayer]] became Mii Costumes. Some fans appreciate that the developers were trying to make the characters as playable as possible with limited DLC character slots that were [[ExecutiveMeddling already chosen by Nintendo and approved by Sakurai,]] but the intense speculation and existing BrokenBase on who might get in, or who "deserves" to get in, combined with the Fighter's Passes being finished, meant that many saw these Mii Costumes as "deconfirmations" that don't always suit the character the costume is mimicking, thanks to the Miis' vanilla moves and cartoony proportions. The limited playerbase of Mii characters, as well as the Swordfighter and Gunner having bad reputations as "spammy zoners" in the community, don't help matters as despite the costumes, most still see the Miis as only Miis in the end, and believe their requested character deserves better.
66	* '''The possibility of an "''Ultimate Deluxe''"''': Due to ''Ultimate'' being very well-recieved, many speculated that the next Nintendo console would come with an UpdatedRerelease of said game, rather than an entirely new installment. Those who want an ''Ultimate Deluxe'' and/or believe it to be realistic fear that a more traditional ''Smash'' sequel would have to cut out a lot of ''Ultimate'''s content, much of which was based around bringing back veterans and reused lots of assets from ''Smash 4'' just to make it happen. On the other hand, there are fans who think such a port is highly impractical based on comments Sakurai made regarding the development of the base game[[note]]Specifically that they wouldn't be able to add that many newcomers, and that they were almost unable to bring back one veteran[[/note]], which are issues that would potentially be worse when ''Ultimate'' ended with a roster with over 80 characters. ''Ultimate'' also almost tripling the amount of third-party characters the series has, which would seriously increase the licensing costs for an UpdatedRerelease. And regardless of likelihood, a faction of fans just aren't interested in an ''Ultimate Deluxe'' for these very reasons, viewing the idea as ItsTheSameNowItSucks. These fans argue that people can always come back to ''Ultimate'' if they want, and prefer a greater emphasis on more new content over the same set of veterans and only a few newcomers.
67	[[/folder]]

Context BrokenBase / SuperSmashBros