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Removing the argument. Should've been in Discussion instead.


** [[spoiler: Actually not the case. Bette didn't rape Tina. Tina fought her off, climbed on top of her and started biting her. Then Tina grabbed Bette's hand and shoved it in her and started humping it. Despite Bette's aggression, Tina never lost control and submitted to Bette in the end. In fact, the way she so aggressively grabbed Bette's hand and forced it into her own vagina, one could say Tina raped Bette. That's why they never addressed the "rape". There was no rape. Just two wounded lovers attacking each other with sex.]]
** Tina told Bette "No" several times before 'submitting'. The definition of rape is that it is nonconsensual. Someone who stops struggling is not giving consent. Many victims submit and even actively participate as a way to reduce harm or get it over with faster. NotIfTheyEnjoyedItRationalization applied to the viewers.

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** [[spoiler: Actually not the case. Bette didn't rape Tina. Tina fought her off, climbed on top of her and started biting her. Then Tina grabbed Bette's hand and shoved it in her and started humping it. Despite Bette's aggression, Tina never lost control and submitted to Bette in the end. In fact, the way she so aggressively grabbed Bette's hand and forced it into her own vagina, one could say Tina raped Bette. That's why they never addressed the "rape". There was no rape. Just two wounded lovers attacking each other with sex.]]
** Tina told Bette "No" several times before 'submitting'. The definition of rape is that it is nonconsensual. Someone who stops struggling is not giving consent. Many victims submit and even actively participate as a way to reduce harm or get it over with faster. NotIfTheyEnjoyedItRationalization applied to the viewers.
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** Tina told Bette "No" several times before 'submitting'. The definition of rape is that it is nonconsensual. Someone who stops struggling is not giving consent. Many victims submit and even actively participate as a way to reduce harm or get it over with faster. This should not be up for debate.

to:

** Tina told Bette "No" several times before 'submitting'. The definition of rape is that it is nonconsensual. Someone who stops struggling is not giving consent. Many victims submit and even actively participate as a way to reduce harm or get it over with faster. This should not be up for debate.NotIfTheyEnjoyedItRationalization applied to the viewers.
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** Tina told Bette "No" several times before 'submitting'. The definition of rape is that it is nonconsensual. Someone who stops struggling is not giving consent. Many victims submit and even actively participate as a way to reduce harm or get it over with faster. This should not be up for debate.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** [[spoiler: Actually not the case. Bette didn't rape Tina. Tina fought her off, climbed on top of her and started biting her. Then Tina grabbed Bette's hand and shoved it in her and started humping it. Despite Bette's aggression, Tina never lost control and submitted to Bette in the end. In fact, the way she so aggressively grabbed Bette's hand and forced it into her own vagina, one could say Tina raped Bette. That's why they never addressed the "rape". There was no rape. Just two wounded lovers attacking each other with sex.]]
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: In season 1, episode 14, [[spoiler: did Bette rape Tina, or did Tina rape Bette]]?
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* MexicansLoveSpeedyGonzales: Max Sweeney is a complicated case. While the series had an ugly TERF tone to Max's storylines, implying that trans folks are deluded sell-outs that fall prey to and propagate gender stereotypes (including being on the receiving end of a particularly cringeworthy speech by Kit telling him 'why don't you try being a butch lesbian instead?'), the charismatic and humanizing way actor Daniel Sea played Max endeared the character enormously to the transmasculine community. Even at the time, viewers tended to root for Max and found him much [[UnpopularPopularCharacter more sympathetic than the show intended]]. These reaction have only gained traction over time, with greater awareness of trans issues. The sequel show acknowledges this.

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* MexicansLoveSpeedyGonzales: Max Sweeney is a complicated case. While the series had an ugly TERF tone to Max's storylines, implying that trans folks are deluded sell-outs that fall prey to and propagate gender stereotypes (including being on the receiving end of a particularly cringeworthy speech by Kit telling him 'why don't you try being a butch lesbian instead?'), the charismatic and humanizing way actor Daniel Sea played Max endeared the character enormously to the transmasculine community. Even at the time, viewers tended to root for Max and found him much [[UnpopularPopularCharacter more sympathetic than the show intended]]. These reaction reactions have only gained traction over time, with greater awareness of trans issues. The sequel show acknowledges this.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
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* MexicansLoveSpeedyGonzales: Max Sweeney is a complicated case. While the original series had an ugly TERF tone to his storylines, implying that trans folks are deluded sell-outs that fall prey to gender stereotypes (including being on the receiving end of a particularly cringeworthy speech by Kit telling him 'why don't you try being a butch lesbian instead?'), the charismatic and humanizing way actor Daniel Sea played Max endeared the character enormously to the transmasculine community. Even at the time, viewers tended to root for Max and finded him much [[UnpopularPopularCharacter more sympathetic than the show itself seemed to]]. These reaction have only gained traction over time, with greater awareness of trans issues. The sequel show acknowledges this.

to:

* MexicansLoveSpeedyGonzales: Max Sweeney is a complicated case. While the original series had an ugly TERF tone to his Max's storylines, implying that trans folks are deluded sell-outs that fall prey to and propagate gender stereotypes (including being on the receiving end of a particularly cringeworthy speech by Kit telling him 'why don't you try being a butch lesbian instead?'), the charismatic and humanizing way actor Daniel Sea played Max endeared the character enormously to the transmasculine community. Even at the time, viewers tended to root for Max and finded found him much [[UnpopularPopularCharacter more sympathetic than the show itself seemed to]].intended]]. These reaction have only gained traction over time, with greater awareness of trans issues. The sequel show acknowledges this.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* MexicansLoveSpeedyGonzales: Max Sweeney is a complicated case. While the original series had an ugly TERF tone to his storylines, implying that trans folks are deluded sell-outs that fall prey to gender stereotypes (including being on the receiving end of a particularly cringeworthy speech by Kit telling him 'why don't you try being a butch lesbian instead?'), the charismatic and humanizing way actor Daniel Sea played Max endeared the character enormously to the transmasculine community. Even at the time, viewers tended to root for Max and finded him much [[UnpopularPopularCharacter more sympathetic than the show itself seemed to]] These reaction have only gained traction over time, with greater awareness of trans issues. The sequel show acknowledges this.

to:

* MexicansLoveSpeedyGonzales: Max Sweeney is a complicated case. While the original series had an ugly TERF tone to his storylines, implying that trans folks are deluded sell-outs that fall prey to gender stereotypes (including being on the receiving end of a particularly cringeworthy speech by Kit telling him 'why don't you try being a butch lesbian instead?'), the charismatic and humanizing way actor Daniel Sea played Max endeared the character enormously to the transmasculine community. Even at the time, viewers tended to root for Max and finded him much [[UnpopularPopularCharacter more sympathetic than the show itself seemed to]] to]]. These reaction have only gained traction over time, with greater awareness of trans issues. The sequel show acknowledges this.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

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* MexicansLoveSpeedyGonzales: Max Sweeney is a complicated case. While the original series had an ugly TERF tone to his storylines, implying that trans folks are deluded sell-outs that fall prey to gender stereotypes (including being on the receiving end of a particularly cringeworthy speech by Kit telling him 'why don't you try being a butch lesbian instead?'), the charismatic and humanizing way actor Daniel Sea played Max endeared the character enormously to the transmasculine community. Even at the time, viewers tended to root for Max and finded him much [[UnpopularPopularCharacter more sympathetic than the show itself seemed to]] These reaction have only gained traction over time, with greater awareness of trans issues. The sequel show acknowledges this.
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"Do not link to this on the wiki, please. Not even under the YMMV tab."


* SugarWiki/AndTheFandomRejoiced: Tibette fans were ''ecstatic'' when [[spoiler:Bette and Tina finally reunited]] in season 3 of ''Generation Q''.
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* SugarWiki/AndTheFandomRejoiced: Tibette fans were ''ecstatic'' when [[spoiler:Bette and Tina finally reunited]] in season 3 of ''Generation Q''.


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* CreatorBacklash: Creator/MiaKirshner was furious when it was revealed in ''Generation Q'' that [[spoiler:Jenny had committed suicide]], saying not only was it out of character of her but that it sent a [[UnfortunateImplications terrible message]] to fans who had suffered similar abusive pasts.
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* SeasonalRot: Season 6. It didn't help that it was a {{Postscript Season}}.

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* SeasonalRot: Season 6. It The later seasons in general are often accused of this, but particularly the final season — which is so universally hated that some fans prefer to pretend it didn't help that it was a {{Postscript Season}}.happen.
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** Niki, the party girl closeted lesbian actress who uses a beard despite the hurt it causes her girlfriend and who dates older women. She was based on Creator/LindsayLohan. This was confirmed as fact by the actress, and the writer Angela Robinson (Who is a lesbian and worked with Lindsay so there may be RealitySubtext there)

to:

** Niki, the party girl closeted lesbian actress who uses a beard despite the hurt it causes her girlfriend and who dates older women. She was based on Creator/LindsayLohan. This was confirmed as fact by the actress, and the writer Angela Robinson (Who (who is a lesbian and worked with Lindsay so there may be RealitySubtext there)there).

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* EthnicScrappy: Papi.
** [[SassyBlackWoman Kit]] is sometimes viewed as an EthnicScrappy by fans because, according to them, all of her characterization is stripped away and in later seasons she only exists to say "Giiirl!" twice an episode.

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* EthnicScrappy: Papi.
**
[[SassyBlackWoman Kit]] is sometimes viewed as an EthnicScrappy by fans because, according to them, all of her characterization is stripped away and in later seasons she only exists to say "Giiirl!" twice an episode.episode.
* FetishRetardant: Jenny and Dana attempt to have a tryst, but have so little chemistry with or desire for each other that they basically go through the act like they were reading it from a textbook and just give up and go dancing instead.



* MoralEventHorizon: Once they learned that he'd rigged the entire house with surveillance cameras so he could turn the intimate details of his roomates' personal lives into fodder for his next documentary, there was no way in '''Hell''' the viewers were ever going to forgive Mark. (Which is probably why he was {{Put On A Bus}} between Seasons 2 and 3.)

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* MoralEventHorizon: MoralEventHorizon:
**
Once they learned that he'd rigged the entire house with surveillance cameras so he could turn the intimate details of his roomates' roommates' personal lives into fodder for his next documentary, there was no way in '''Hell''' the viewers were ever going to forgive Mark. (Which is probably why he was {{Put On A Bus}} between Seasons 2 and 3.)



* TheScrappy: Jenny, to [[strike:some]] [[strike:many]] almost all viewers. There wasn't a viewer who didn't cringe every time Tonya opened her mouth.

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* TheScrappy: TheScrappy:
**
Jenny, to [[strike:some]] [[strike:many]] almost all viewers. There wasn't a viewer who didn't cringe every time Tonya opened her mouth.



* TheWoobie: Dana.
** ''Shane''. Her OnceASeason character arc is her coming from a bad place, somehow managing to rebuild her life, and having it ruined in increasingly dramatic ways. And that's without her frequent SlutShaming and DarkAndTroubledPast...

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* TheWoobie: Dana.
**
''Shane''. Her OnceASeason character arc is her coming from a bad place, somehow managing to rebuild her life, and having it ruined in increasingly dramatic ways. And that's without her frequent SlutShaming and DarkAndTroubledPast...
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* SugarWiki/FunnyMoments: The above "we're dykes, not fags" comment, in a BlackComedy way. Also, the shared phone call the leads to everybody finding out [[spoiler: Shane and Jenny are sleeping together.]] Alice hisses "EW" like a fifth-grader who saw her mother having sex, Helena is so shocked she falls off a treadmill, and Bette just starts laughing hysterically in the middle of a meeting.



* SugarWiki/MomentOfAwesome: The climax of the Planet-vs-[=SheBar=] plot of Season 5 (even if it was pretty much a DeusExMachina).
** Jenny tazing a homophobic bully who assaulted Max. Capped off by her leaving him shocked and saying [[BrokenAesop "We're dykes, not fags, you asshole"]]. Also, her rant to Mark after she finds out he was filming around the house secretly, and her fucking around in her room to make him look bad while he has a girl over-specifically, role-playing an innocent 14-year-old being taken advantage of, stripping for the camera, and writing "IS THIS WHAT U WANT" on her chest. Damn.
--->'''Mark:''' I know what I did was wrong. I get it now. I think...I think all of this, being here with you, it's made me a better man.
--->'''Jenny:''' It's not my job to make you a better man, and I don't give a shit if I've made you a better man. It's not a fucking woman's job to be consumed and invaded and spat out so that some fucking man can evolve.
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Please take all MB proposals to the [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15255322860A44444400&page=1 cleanup thread][.


* MagnificentBastard: [[spoiler:Adele]] in Season 5.

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** Stealing Alice's idea for a movie script is also a major assholery of hers, even thought she started to cross over earlier than in the sixth season.
* MostAnnoyingSound: For some, Alice's voice. In the show, Alice for some reason decided to raise the pitch of her voice significantly and make it sound more nasally. She sounded relatively normal early on, but her voice sounds like a nasally chipmunk in later episodes.

to:

** Stealing Alice's idea for a movie script is also a major assholery of hers, even thought though she started to cross over earlier than in the sixth season.
* MostAnnoyingSound: For some, Alice's voice. In the show, Alice for some reason decided to raise the pitch of her voice significantly and make it sound more nasally. She sounded relatively normal early on, but her voice sounds like a nasally chipmunk in later episodes.
season.

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* CrowningMomentOfAwesome: The climax of the Planet-vs-[=SheBar=] plot of Season 5 (even if it was pretty much a {{Deus Ex Machina}}).
** Jenny tazing a homophobic bully who assaulted Max. Capped off by her leaving him shocked and saying [[BrokenAesop "We're dykes, not fags, you asshole"]]. Also, her rant to Mark after she finds out he was filming around the house secretly, and her fucking around in her room to make him look bad while he has a girl over-specifically, role-playing an innocent 14-year-old being taken advantage of, stripping for the camera, and writing "IS THIS WHAT U WANT" on her chest. Damn.
--->'''Mark:''' I know what I did was wrong. I get it now. I think...I think all of this, being here with you, it's made me a better man.
--->'''Jenny:''' It's not my job to make you a better man, and I don't give a shit if I've made you a better man. It's not a fucking woman's job to be consumed and invaded and spat out so that some fucking man can evolve.
* CrowningMomentOfFunny: The above "we're dykes, not fags" comment, in a BlackComedy way. Also, the shared phone call the leads to everybody finding out [[spoiler: Shane and Jenny are sleeping together.]] Alice hisses "EW" like a fifth-grader who saw her mother having sex, Helena is so shocked she falls off a treadmill, and Bette just starts laughing hysterically in the middle of a meeting.


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* SugarWiki/FunnyMoments: The above "we're dykes, not fags" comment, in a BlackComedy way. Also, the shared phone call the leads to everybody finding out [[spoiler: Shane and Jenny are sleeping together.]] Alice hisses "EW" like a fifth-grader who saw her mother having sex, Helena is so shocked she falls off a treadmill, and Bette just starts laughing hysterically in the middle of a meeting.


Added DiffLines:

* SugarWiki/MomentOfAwesome: The climax of the Planet-vs-[=SheBar=] plot of Season 5 (even if it was pretty much a DeusExMachina).
** Jenny tazing a homophobic bully who assaulted Max. Capped off by her leaving him shocked and saying [[BrokenAesop "We're dykes, not fags, you asshole"]]. Also, her rant to Mark after she finds out he was filming around the house secretly, and her fucking around in her room to make him look bad while he has a girl over-specifically, role-playing an innocent 14-year-old being taken advantage of, stripping for the camera, and writing "IS THIS WHAT U WANT" on her chest. Damn.
--->'''Mark:''' I know what I did was wrong. I get it now. I think...I think all of this, being here with you, it's made me a better man.
--->'''Jenny:''' It's not my job to make you a better man, and I don't give a shit if I've made you a better man. It's not a fucking woman's job to be consumed and invaded and spat out so that some fucking man can evolve.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Niki, the party girl closeted lesbian actress who uses a beard despite the hurt it causes her girlfriend and who dates older women. She was based on {{Lindsay Lohan}}. This was confirmed as fact by the actress, and the writer Angela Robinson (Who is a lesbian and worked with Lindsay so there may be RealitySubtext there)

to:

** Niki, the party girl closeted lesbian actress who uses a beard despite the hurt it causes her girlfriend and who dates older women. She was based on {{Lindsay Lohan}}.Creator/LindsayLohan. This was confirmed as fact by the actress, and the writer Angela Robinson (Who is a lesbian and worked with Lindsay so there may be RealitySubtext there)

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** Jenny tazing a homophobic bully who assaulted Max. Capped off by her leaving him shocked and saying [[BrokenAesop "We're dykes, not fags"]].

to:

** Jenny tazing a homophobic bully who assaulted Max. Capped off by her leaving him shocked and saying [[BrokenAesop "We're dykes, not fags"]].fags, you asshole"]]. Also, her rant to Mark after she finds out he was filming around the house secretly, and her fucking around in her room to make him look bad while he has a girl over-specifically, role-playing an innocent 14-year-old being taken advantage of, stripping for the camera, and writing "IS THIS WHAT U WANT" on her chest. Damn.
--->'''Mark:''' I know what I did was wrong. I get it now. I think...I think all of this, being here with you, it's made me a better man.
--->'''Jenny:''' It's not my job to make you a better man, and I don't give a shit if I've made you a better man. It's not a fucking woman's job to be consumed and invaded and spat out so that some fucking man can evolve.
* CrowningMomentOfFunny: The above "we're dykes, not fags" comment, in a BlackComedy way. Also, the shared phone call the leads to everybody finding out [[spoiler: Shane and Jenny are sleeping together.]] Alice hisses "EW" like a fifth-grader who saw her mother having sex, Helena is so shocked she falls off a treadmill, and Bette just starts laughing hysterically in the middle of a meeting.



** [[SassyBlackWoman Kit]] is sometimes viewed as an Ethnic Scrappy by fans because, according to them, all of her characterization is stripped away and in later seasons she only exists to say "Giiirl!" twice an episode.

to:

** [[SassyBlackWoman Kit]] is sometimes viewed as an Ethnic Scrappy EthnicScrappy by fans because, according to them, all of her characterization is stripped away and in later seasons she only exists to say "Giiirl!" twice an episode.



* MagnificentBastard: [[spoiler:Adelle]] in Season 5.

to:

* MagnificentBastard: [[spoiler:Adelle]] [[spoiler:Adele]] in Season 5.



** For some, Jenny crossed this when she repeatedly and cannivingly mocking Max for being transgender, repeatedly calling him "she" and a "mom". She pretends to be confused as to why he is upset. Especially the scene where they celebrate Max being pregnant with the Willy Wonka-themed party. Jenny acted in such a disgusting manner - this was one of the reasons that Max ended up having a severe anxiety attack.

to:

** For some, Jenny crossed this when she repeatedly and cannivingly mocking Max for being transgender, misgendered Max, repeatedly calling him "she" and a "mom". She pretends to be confused as to why he is upset."mom". Especially the scene where they celebrate Max being pregnant with the Willy Wonka-themed party. Jenny acted in such a disgusting manner - this was one of the reasons that Max ended up having a severe anxiety attack.



** Niki. The party girl closeted lesbian actress who uses a {{beard}} and who dates older women. She was based on {{Lindsay Lohan}}. This was confirmed as fact by the actress, and the writer Angela Robinson (Who is a lesbian and worked with Lindsay so there may be RealitySubtext there)

to:

** Niki. The Niki, the party girl closeted lesbian actress who uses a {{beard}} beard despite the hurt it causes her girlfriend and who dates older women. She was based on {{Lindsay Lohan}}. This was confirmed as fact by the actress, and the writer Angela Robinson (Who is a lesbian and worked with Lindsay so there may be RealitySubtext there)



* WhyWouldAnyoneTakeHimBack: Dylan did ''not'' deserve a second chance from Helena.

to:

* WhyWouldAnyoneTakeHimBack: Dylan did ''not'' deserve a second chance from Helena. Dylan, given that she [[spoiler: falsely accused Helena of sexual extortion and sued her for millions of dollars.]]



** Tim, Jenny's ex-fiance. He's a very good boyfriend, and he even forgives Jenny after she cheats on him. Poor guy.
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** Tim, Jenny's ex-girlfriend. He's a very good boyfriend, and he even forgives Jenny after she cheats on him. Poor guy.

to:

** Tim, Jenny's ex-girlfriend.ex-fiance. He's a very good boyfriend, and he even forgives Jenny after she cheats on him. Poor guy.
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* EnsembleDarkhorse: Alice. Shane.

to:

* EnsembleDarkhorse: Alice. Shane.Shane, who is even loved by people who otherwise hate the show.
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* MemeticMutation: Jenny's rant to Mark in "Loud & Proud" [[note]]It's not my job to make you a better man and I don't give a shit if I've made you a better man. It's not a fucking woman's job to be consumed and invaded and spat out so that some fucking man can evolve.[[/note]] is often used on Tumblr to criticize LoveMartyr storylines and redemption arcs for male villains [[DracoInLeatherPants in leather pants.]]

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Not a YMMV trope.


* [[PanderingToTheBase Pandering To The]] PeripheryDemographic: The show was supposedly aimed at a female audience. However, it garnered a ''very'' large straight male fanbase mainly through extensive sex scenes, reducing gay guys to background extras, making one of the girls bisexual (which ensured a straight guy would participate from time to time) and making straight guys prominent in the supporting cast. ''Actual'' lesbians didn't miss that and often denounced the whole show because of the blatant pandering.
* ProtagonistCenteredMorality: All characters get this to some degree, but Bette is easily the worst. Helena would rather donate money to a shelter for single mothers and their children rather than give Bette an art grant? Guess who the romantic antagonist is for the same season.

to:

* [[PanderingToTheBase Pandering To The]] PeripheryDemographic: PanderingToTheBase: The show was supposedly aimed at a female audience. However, it garnered a ''very'' large straight male fanbase mainly through extensive sex scenes, reducing gay guys to background extras, making one of the girls bisexual (which ensured a straight guy would participate from time to time) and making straight guys prominent in the supporting cast. ''Actual'' lesbians didn't miss that and often denounced the whole show because of the blatant pandering.
* ProtagonistCenteredMorality: All characters get this to some degree, but Bette is easily the worst. Helena would rather donate money to a shelter for single mothers and their children rather than give Bette an art grant? Guess who the romantic antagonist is for the same season.
pandering.

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* EthnicScrappy: Papi.
** [[SassyBlackWoman Kit]] is sometimes viewed as an Ethnic Scrappy by fans because, according to them, all of her characterization is stripped away and in later seasons she only exists to say "Giiirl!" twice an episode.



* JerkassWoobie: Jenny, according to the minority of fans who don't consider her a full-fledged [[{{The Scrappy}} Scrappy]].



** EthnicScrappy: Papi.
*** [[SassyBlackWoman Kit]] is sometimes viewed as an Ethnic Scrappy by fans because, according to them, all of her characterization is stripped away and in later seasons she only exists to say "Giiirl!" twice an episode.



* WhyWouldAnyoneTakeHimBack: Dylan did ''not'' deserve a second chance from Helena.



** JerkassWoobie: Jenny, according to the minority of fans who don't consider her a full-fledged [[{{The Scrappy}} Scrappy]].

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