History WMG / UminekoWhenTheyCryOpenTwo

[[color:red:One of the recurring theories as to how the first twilight of any arc could be possible is via a drug. However, Knox's 4th states on this matter that it can't be an unknown poison (in other words, drug).]] [[color:blue:Therefore, we must get more specific.]] [[color:red:There are already plenty of drugs that can make people have weird hallucinations,]] [[color:blue:but we don't even need to go that far. Just one that makes someone more suggestible - in other words, a depressant in the right dosage.]] Honestly, I would look at something like Ketamine - one of the "date rape drugs" - since [[color:red:it has both depressant and hallucinogenic qualities.]] In fact, as further evidence, I submit to you a section of ThatOtherWiki on Ketamine - my own speculations in red & blue:

* [[SayonaraZetsubouSensei Yes. How could a Great Detective, something I've only seen in fiction, possibly exist? She must be an actress!]]

Think about this for a moment, [[spoiler:when Genji found out the baby survived the fall, rather than bring the baby back to the mansion, he opted instead to place Sayo in the Fukuin house in order to protect her from potential incestuous advances from her father, Kinzo. After all, history has a way of repeating itself. However, since Kinzo has only been shown to have interest in women, it's safe to assume Sayo was not born male, otherwise, there'd likely be no need for these elaborate protective measures. It'd be different if Kinzo was portrayed as AmbiguouslyBi, but he wasn't. As for why Genji didn't bother confirming Sayo was female when she started questioning what she was, it's possible he tried, but Sayo was too busy freaking out to listen. On the other hand, Sayo could have been born a hermaphrodite, meaning even Genji wasn't really sure whether she was male or female.]]

[[WMG: [[spoiler:Sayo Yasuda]] is, in fact, female.]]

In this Fragment, Yasu sets everything up like usual, but once (s)he delivers the letter as Beatrice, challenging everyone/Battler to solve the epitaph, the adults dismiss it like usual, but Battler makes a serious attempt to solve it. He manages to solve the puzzle before midnight, finds the gold, as well as Yasu/Beatrice. Yasu reveals her/his plan was to carry out the serial murders and blow up the island unless someone solved the epitaph, and that one of her/his reasons for doing so was Battler's "sin" from six years ago. (S)he then presses Battler to remember what his sin was. Unlike in the 4th game, where Battler couldn't remember his sin because he recognized Yasu as Beatrice at the time, and couldn't think of anything he did six years ago under that context; here, because Battler recognizes [[spoiler:Yasu as Shannon]], he is able to remember his sin of [[spoiler:promising to come back for Shannon in one year, but never fulfilling that promise.]] Battler then apologizes for his sin, and Yasu breaks down from the guilt of having planned the serial murders in the first place. Since Kinzo's death made Yasu the true master of Rokkenjima, Yasu then makes Battler the new Head of the Ushiromiya family, and Battler forms a plan for how to settle the inheritance issue. With cooperation from the servants who knew Yasu's secret, Battler announces at breakfast how he was made the new head, and that he has a plan for how to divide the gold. For each of Kinzo's children[[note]]Krauss, Eva, Rudolph, and Rosa[[/note]], Battler gives each of them 1/4 of half the gold (2.5 tons apiece). Then, for each of Kinzo's grandchildren[[note]]Battler, George, Jessica, Maria, and Ange[[/note]], Battler portions out 1/5 of the other half of the gold (2 tons apiece). Battler then portions out various parts of the Ushiromiya empire to each sibling, and takes care of the Fukuin House himself along with Yasu. [[spoiler:Since part of Yasu's identity crisis stems from her/his body being so badly damaged (s)he doesn't know whether (s)he's male or female, Battler uses part of his inheritance to pay for Yasu's sex reassignment surgery in order to settle the issue.]] Thus, Battler and "Beatrice" get married for real, run the Fukuin House together, and co-write mystery novels for a living. No one dies on Rokkenjima, the massacre is prevented, Ange's life doesn't become a living hell, and everyone (or at least almost everyone) lives happily ever after.

[[WMG: [[VisualNovel/UminekoNoNakuKoroNi Umineko]] is to Ryukishi07 what [[Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion Evangelion]] was to Hideaki Anno.]]

**** [[color:blue:VisualNovel/UminekoNoNakuKoroNi is a detective story.]] [[color:red:Ange's 1998 is part of VisualNovel/UminekoNoNakuKoroNi.]] Therefore, Ange's 1998 is part of a detective story.
***** Sure, it's part of Umineko, but the entirety of Umineko is not a Mystery story; it's a blend of genres. The Meta-World is not strictly Mystery, and there are multiple Fantasy scenes on the Gameboard. The thing is, by definition, 1998 doesn't qualify as Mystery because Ange's perspective isn't reliable as her journey breaks a lot of Knox and Dine rules, which, by the way, only need to apply to the Gameboard, because only the Gameboard needs to follow Mystery rules. Reality isn't bound by Narrative Causality.

Bernkastel states the odds of Natsuhi accepting Lion in any given Fragment were roughly 1 in 2.6 million, but in the specific Fragment she pulled Lion from, the Rokkenjima Massacre still happened. Given that Bernkastel just enjoys making people miserable, it's possible she could have looked a little longer and found a Fragment containing Ushiromiya Lion, but not the Rokkenjima Massacre. Either that, or she found a Fragment like that first, but then intentionally kept looking until she found one where Lion existed along with the massacre.

Bernkastel states the odds of Natsuhi accepting Lion in any given Fragment were roughly 1 in 2.6 million, but in the specific Fragment she pulled Lion from, the Rokkenjima Massacre still happened. Given that Bernkastel just enjoys making people miserable, it's possible she could have looked a little longer and found a Fragment containing Ushiromiya Lion, but not the Rokkenjima Massacre. Either that, or she found a Fragment like that first, but then intentionally kept looking until she found one where Lion existed along with the massacre.
* Furthermore...

[[WMG: There exists a Fragment where Yasu planned the Rokkenjima Massacre, but it ended up not happening]]
In this Fragment, Yasu sets everything up like usual, but once (s)he delivers the letter as Beatrice, challenging everyone/Battler to solve the epitaph, the adults dismiss it like usual, but Battler makes a serious attempt to solve it. He manages to solve the puzzle before midnight, finds the gold, as well as Yasu/Beatrice. Yasu reveals her/his plan was to carry out the serial murders and blow up the island unless someone solved the epitaph, and that one of her/his reasons for doing so was Battler's "sin" from six years ago. (S)he then presses Battler to remember what his sin was. Unlike in the 4th game, where Battler couldn't remember his sin because he recognized Yasu as Beatrice at the time, and couldn't think of anything he did six years ago under that context; here, because Battler recognizes [[spoiler:Yasu as Shannon]], he is able to remember his sin of [[spoiler:promising to come back for Shannon in one year, but never fulfilling that promise.]] Battler then apologizes for his sin, and Yasu breaks down from the guilt of having planned the serial murders in the first place. Since Kinzo's death made Yasu the true master of Rokkenjima, Yasu then makes Battler the new Head of the Ushiromiya family, and Battler forms a plan for how to settle the inheritance issue. With cooperation from the servants who knew Yasu's secret, Battler announces at breakfast how he was made the new head, and that he has a plan for how to divide the gold. For each of Kinzo's children[[note]]Krauss, Eva, Rudolph, and Rosa[[/note]], Battler gives each of them 1/4 of half the gold (2.5 tons apiece). Then, for each of Kinzo's grandchildren[[note]]Battler, George, Jessica, Maria, and Ange[[/note]], Battler portions out 1/5 of the other half of the gold (2 tons apiece). Battler then portions out various parts of the Ushiromiya empire to each sibling, and takes care of the Fukuin House himself.

In this Fragment, Yasu sets everything up like usual, but once (s)he delivers the letter as Beatrice, challenging everyone/Battler to solve the epitaph, the adults dismiss it like usual, but Battler makes a serious attempt to solve it. He manages to solve the puzzle before midnight, finds the gold, as well as Yasu/Beatrice. Yasu reveals her/his plan was to carry out the serial murders and blow up the island unless someone solved the epitaph, and that one of her/his reasons for doing so was Battler's "sin" from six years ago. (S)he then presses Battler to remember what his sin was. Unlike in the 4th game, where Battler couldn't remember his sin because he recognized Yasu as Beatrice at the time, and couldn't think of anything he did six years ago under that context; here, because Battler recognizes [[spoiler:Yasu as Shannon]], he is able to remember his sin of [[spoiler:promising to come back for Shannon in one year, but never fulfilling that promise.]]

Bernkastel states the odds of Natsuhi accepting Lion in any given Fragment were roughly 1 in 2.6 million, but in the specific Fragment she pulled Lion from, the Rokkenjima Massacre still happened. Given that Bernkastel just enjoys making people miserable, it's possible she could have looked a little longer and found a Fragment containing Ushiromiya Lion, but not the Rokkenjima Massacre. Either that, or she found a Fragment like that first, but then intentionally kept looking until she found one where Lion existed along with the massacre.

Apparently Ryukishi07's original idea was for Ikuko and Toya (aka Battler) to have even married in the decades between Ange's story and the DistantFinale, but what if they entered a relationship even with no marriage? The daughter grew to be [[GenerationXerox practically identical to her mother]] and, knowing Ikuko's eccentricities, she was trained to assume the same persona her mother kept in her rare public appearances. What better publicity than being a legendary writer who apparently never ages?

** 1. Yasu isn't a servant. S/he is the Head of Ushiromiya family. 2. There's nothing indicating that the gameboards comply to Van Dine Rules. And they definitely don't. 3. Indeed, Shannon and Kanon (in fact Yasu) along with Genji are the culprits in EP1.

In EP8, the entire concept of Ange being the Witch of Resurrection can just be explained by abusing a loophole in the rules of the Game Board. Never has been stated in Red that death is final and irreversible. Even the Knox' Decalogue and Van Dine's Commandments never state something like that. It is a bit of an overstretch, but even Ange's powers can be explained by "Human tricks". For example, there have been recorded instances of people being diagnosed as dead, but miraculously coming "back to life". A Red Truth like "Person X is dead" can be avoided by stating in Blue that "This person had a near-death experience when the Red Truth was spoken, but he or she returned to life." This makes the irrational behaviour of Ange in essence just loophole abuse of such a ridiculous degree that even Bernkastel didn't know what to do with it. When she heard that someone is dead, she just believed that they would not be permanently dead.

Since Ronove is Genji's fantasy counterpart and Battler has strong parallels with Kinzo, Ronove's may-or-may-not-be-flirty behaviour may actually mean that Genji has (very) repressed feelings for Kinzo, who he's known since childhood. Sayo Yasuda may have known or at least suspected this about Genji, hence why they make Ronove act this way.

*** BT was Ryukishi07's best friend, and the entire reason the Franchise/WhenTheyCry franchise exists. Ryukishi07 originally wrote VisualNovel/HigurashiNoNakuKoroNi for him.

There's the true mastermind, the one behind at least the killings of at least [=EP1=]. And there's also [[VisualNovel/HigurashiNoNakuKoroNi The Shion]] of the story, someone else who also go goes on a killing spree because of some form of trigger. Therefore, using every game as a means to determine the original culprit is foolish.

I suspect [=EP3=] is one of the red herrings, as it doesn't follow the epitaph past the first twilight, and Maria's death could be the trigger for somebody else's RoaringRampageOfRevenge. Though [[VisualNovel/HigurashiNoNakuKoroNi The Shion]] is not necessarily Eva.

[[WMG: The previous game between Bernkastel and Lambdadelta was similar to, but distinct from the events of VisualNovel/HigurashiNoNakuKoroNi.]]

** [[color:blue: Keiichi would be the obvious choice, but I'm going to [[HomosexualReproduction go]] [[CrackPairing with]] [[VisualNovel/HigurashiNoNakuKoroNi Chie Rumiko]]]]

Conclusion: Our killer has ''issues''. '''[[JusticeLeague LOTS]]''' [[JusticeLeague of issues.]]

[[WMG: [[{{Illuminatus}} There is no enemy anywhere]]]]

While everything else in the series could theoretically be handwaved by Battler being an UnreliableNarrator coming to terms with his past, Ikuko's a bit of an oddity. True, the only real hint that there's something off about her is her youthfulness (she has the same appearance in the 2030's that she had in 1986), but unlike everything else, it's not part of Battler's story.

Who knows, maybe the deciding factor that led to Lion's world was Krauss telling Natsuhi the truth in time and therefore she didn't have any reason to feel resentful towards the baby.

**** (1st respondent here.) [[WillyWonkaAndTheChocolateFactory Wrong, sir, wrong!]] When Battler refuses to let Erika enter the cousins' room, she says that Red and Battler gets thrown out of her way. As the 2nd respondent was kind enough to remind me, Knox's 2nd forbids such things. But, she wasn't using the Red for her deductions or to help solve the crime, she was using it to remind Battler of her right as the "detective" but I still agree that Knox's 2nd kills such a move.

Because [[spoiler: Erica]] Violates Both Knox's first and Sixth over the Course of the Sixth game Because according to Knox's first the Killer Must Be Introduced in the first part of the story! Furthermore According To Knox's sixth The detecive Can Not Be The Murderer However She [[spoiler: Beheads The Survivors, Traping Battler In the Logic Error]] Thus Violating 2 Of Knox's Ten Laws!

Because [[spoiler: Erica]] Violates Both Knox's first and Sixth over the Course of the Sixth game Because according to Knox's first the Killer Must Be Introduced in the first part of the story! Furthermore According To Knox's sixth The detecive Can Not Be The Murderer However She [[spoiler: Beheads The Survivors, Traping Battler In the Logic Error]] Thus Violating 2 Of Knox's Ten Laws!

[[WMG: Red text, red text.]]
Yes, it will always tell an absolute truth, but you really have to pay attention to [[ExactWords Exactly how the phrase is said, or you're missing a ton of things that are automatically overlooked.]] Basically, I'm saying there's just too much room for error in the red text. All of my examples are coming from the second Episode, which is the first time we encounter red text. I'm getting all of the red text below from the manga (as I have no chance to play the games at all).

Example 1: "Whether they were dead or alive, the six certainly entered through the door."

This was in response to Battler asking if there are any hidden doors. The point I want to raise is that it is never confirmed just how many doors the chapel does have. So...WHAT DOOR DID THEY ENTER THROUGH?!

Example 2: "When the door to the chapel is locked, entry and exit are not possible by any means."

That last bit of the sentence is what bothers me. Look at it again. That could interpreted to mean that 'because the door is locked, there is absolutely nothing you can do to enter the room beyond it, even if you have a key or magic'. NOT POSSIBLE BY ANY MEANS.

Example 3: "This morning, Rosa took an envelope out of Maria's handbag and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel." and "The envelope I entrusted to Maria contained the genuine key to the chapel."

Okay. I have no issue with the first sentence, but thought it should be there as context. The second sentence, however, can be worked around. With this sentence, you can still doubt Maria having had the key the entire time. Think about it. It never specifies WHEN the key was entrusted to Maria. It's as simple as saying that the culprit gave Maria a key in a sealed envelope, but it did not necessarily have to be the key to the chapel. In fact, the culprit taking the envelope they'd originally given to Maria out of her handbag and entrusting her with a new one solves both problems at once.

Example 4: "The only master keys are the ones each servant holds; one per person."

For one, this does not clarify whether or not Jessica's key was the only one. (This issue comes up later and I will explain in more detail.) For two, this statement is a contradiction. That one per person bit. You can ASSUME, based on context that Beatrice is talking about the servants. Let us not forget that later, she states that "There are only five master keys." If this is indeed true, and the bit about each servant only having one key is also true, then [[spoiler:Yasu has one key. Shannon and Kanon "share" that key because really, they're the same person.]] This means that there is another key floating around out there.

Example 5: "There are no types of hidden doors. This door is the only way in or out. The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant. The window is locked from the inside."

I will deal with the part about hidden doors later. For now, let's focus on Jessica's key. Or rather, keyS. Because the culprit is either using the original, a copy, or that last master key. The way this sentence is put together, the IMPLICATION is that there is only a single key that was made for Jessica's room. The reality is that you can interpret that as meaning that, for example, someone else's key won't work on Jessica's door. This actually does not expel the idea of there being a copy.

Example 6: "When the door is locked, entry or exit is not possible by any means. No trick could be used to lock the door from the outside without a key."

Yes, that phrase again. NOT POSSIBLE BY ANY MEANS. Refer to my above [[TranquilFury rant.]]

Example 7: "Entry or exit is impossible except through either the single door or the single window. And those were both locked. When the door and window are locked, there are no other methods of entry or exit." and "The door cannot be unlocked with anything but the master keys or the key to the servants' room."

Again. Again with that sentence. RAGE. The third sentence bugs me too. Seriously, read that again! "When the door and window are locked, there are no other methods of entry or exit." This sentence denies someone unlocking the door from the inside and it simultaneously denies the use of a key. But right after that, she also adds that 'oh, right, the master keys and the servants' room key will do the job too'. RAGE!!! And yes, I understand that, in context, she's talking about a hidden staircase in the floor or something similar. I'm taking every meaning these words can give.

Example 8: "There is no one in this room except all of you. 'All of you' refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Shannon, and Gohda."

This does not outright dispel the idea of a hallway or similar behind a wall because the 'room' referred to here would only be connected to said hallway or similar by a wall, which does the job of separating it from the 'room'. Also, a 'hallway', 'closet', and 'room' all have different names for a reason.
* One more note with this one, refer back to Knox's 3rd, where one secret passage or room is allowed as long as it is a house where it might be expected. For the servants' room, I'd say that yes, it is. Look up a few mansions (not houses) of the era. Secret passages fit right in.

Example 9: "When Jessica's corpse was discovered, the only ones in Jessica's room were battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, and Kumasawa." and "Jessica is also included."

Again, look at the last argument. That's all.

Example 10: "Therefore, in both the case of Jessica's room and the case of the servants' room, there were no humans you weren't aware of. No one is hiding."

I'd like to note that this was directly after Kumasawa and Nanjo's murders. Again, references being made to Examples 8 and 9, but that last sentence made me [[SlasherSmile grin]]. Sure, the culprit isn't HIDING. Maybe they're dragging off a couple corpses instead. Verb, verb, verb~!

Example 11: "There is no way to lock the door from outside the room without using the key. There is no way to lock the windows from outside."

Oh, but I thought there were TWO keys that work on this room. Which is it? The master keys AND the servants' room key or one of the two keys? Pick one. You can't have both.

There you have it. I tore apart every single bit of the red text in the second Episode that bothered me for one reason or another.

Because [[spoiler: Erica]] Violates Both Knox's first and Sixth over the Course of the Sixth game Because according to Knox's first the Killer Must Be Introduced in the first part of the story! Furthermore According To Knox's sixth The detecive Can Not Be The Murderer However She [[spoiler: Beheads The Survivors, Traping Battler In the Logic Error]] Thus Violating 2 Of Knox's Ten Laws!