History WMG / FateZero

*** Sure, if you don't mind a Servant who will treat you like he's the Master, who will disrupt or disobey your strategy as far as he's able to if the whim strikes, and who regularly loses because his ego won't let him take opponents seriously. Gilgamesh is ''theoretically'' valuable, but in practice, it would be better to summon a less-overpowered but more reliable Servant.

[[WMG: Had Weaver participated to the Fifth War, he would have summoned Iskandar again, and the Einzberns would have summoned [[GaiusJuliusCaesar Caesar]] to counter him]]

** Worth noting that Gilgamesh only betrayed Tokiomi ''after'' he learned that Tokiomi intended to betray him (by intending to sacrifice him to the Holy Grail). Up until that point, he seemed content to just go along with Tokiomi's plan, albeit with occasional modifications to suit his whims. If the only thing a Master wants is to win the war (as opposed to powering up the Grail with seven Servants to reach Akasha), Gilgamesh ''is'' the best Servant as long as you let him do what he wants. However, to the topic itself: Gilgamesh's army isn't a Noble Phantasm and it's not even certain that the Nasuverse's Gilgamesh ''had'' an army in the first place - from the way he talks, he was literally the one maintaining order throughout his entire kingdom by himself. (Which is not that unbelievable given his ridiculous Charisma stat.)

[[WMG: Had Weaver partecipated to the Fifth War, he would have summoned Iskandar again, and the Einzberns would have summoned [[GaiusJuliusCaesar Caesar]] to counter him]]

** Worth noting that Gilgamesh only betrayed Tokiomi ''after'' he learned that Tokiomi intended to betray him (by intending to sacrifice him to the Holy Grail). Up until that point, he seemed content to just go along with Tokiomi's plan, albeit with occasional modifications to suit his whims. If the only thing a Master wants is to win the war (as opposed to powering up the Grail with seven Servants to reach Akasha), Gilgamesh ''is'' the best Servant as long as you let him do what he wants. However, to the topic itself: Gilgamesh's army isn't a Noble Phantasm and it's not even certain that the Nasuverse's Gilgamesh ''had'' an army in the first place - from the way he talks, he was literally the one maintaining order throughout his entire kingdom by himself.

** Why would the Einzberns summon Gilgamesh if they had any idea at all about how the Fourth War played out? Gilgamesh is hardly a reliable Servant, as proven by his treatment of Tokiomi, and the Einberns would have had enough of their "trump card" turning against them with Kiritsugu. Granted, the Einzberns aren't necessarily known for making the smartest choices when it comes to the Holy Grail...

A miraculous birth (his father mentions thathe hadn't expected a child at his age) of a male child, who grows up to have surpassing talent and skill, and whose soul is confirmed 'evil' despite his attempts to [[YouCantFightFate deny it]]? Since we don't know anything about Kirei's mother, and his father was a good, normal man, I propose that Kirei's absent mother was [[HotAsHell The Devil]] in mortal form, as pious clergy are favorite and dramatically-appropriate targets for fictional demons. The man of the church would sire a son who was the inverse of church doctrine, and being raised in the Church would prevent Kirei's true nature from being detected before he was ready to fulfill his destiny. This explains his seemingly-arbitrary evil - unlike Shirou, who becomes void as a result of the fire, Kirei was "just born that way" - as well as his drive to seek answers through the Corrupted Grail, fulfilling his as-yet-unknown purpose of destroying the world. Given his role as an outwardly respectable priest and spiritual healer, Kirei might also qualify as a villainous DarkMessiah.

Of course, given Nasuverse cosmology, as well as vague WordOfGod on whether or not the Judeo-Christian {{God}} exists in it, some modifications are necessary... but this is the gist.

And to make this a [[FateStayNight Fate/stay night]] [=WMG=] as well, this would cast Emiya Shirou as the MessianicArchetype. Of humble beginnings, both human and not quite human, thanks to his 'empty' soul, and with a foil in Kirei, Shirou's determination to sacrifice himself for others ultimately proves to be Kirei's undoing.

* Caster: SpikeSpencer

Kiritsugu shot Kirei after their fight, and since the 'mud' of the corrupted Grail had to build him a new heart to get him on his feet we can assume that he was functionally if temporarily dead. With Kotomine dead, Kiritsugu having rejected the Grail, and Saber's failure to get ''her'' wish a ForegoneConclusion, the only being left around - and who was actually ''inside'' the Grail, not to mention managing to metaphysically overcome it and escape - was Gilgamesh. Though his later wish is to rule over the remnants of humanity, his over-arching interest throughout Fate/Zero is alleviating his boredom; by the halfway point he's clearly settled on Kirei as the most likely prospect to achieve that goal.

It doesn't specifically mention Ionian Hetairoi, but it certainly suggests that Rider and Waver are eternally connected to one another, well beyond death. Anyway, as to the idea that Waver can't join Ionian Hetairoi because it's implausible that he could become a Heroic Spirit, this troper thinks that the bulk of Alexander's army is made up of spirits on the ''level'' of lower-class Servants, not necessarily Heroic Spirits in and of themselves--unless we're really expected to believe that every single one of that huge body of soldiers that ''doesn't'' have a unique character design are remembered and venerated in legend. Alexander remembers them and honors their bond, and they are loyal to him, and that's what counts, not whether or not the world remembers all of their names. In that light, the only possible reason left that Waver would not become part of Ionian Hetairoi is that he and Alexander shared a different dream than that vast desert--but that just leaves open a window for Waver to become a lesser Servant Alexander can call to his side individually, and somehow this troper doesn't think that's an alternative anyone is going to mind.

Let's think it like this: Ionioi Hetairoi is, in Iskander's own words, generated by the feelings treasured by him and his warriors; so strong those bonds are, that the power of the bond coalesce and formed a Reality Marble. Now, we have little proof if present!Waver will indeed go on and die a Heroic Spirit, but Iskander and Waver has undoubtedly forge a treasured bond between them. By that merit alone, i think Waver had more than earned his place to walk beside Iskander in Ionioi Hetairoi.

[[WMG: The massive fire/death/destruction was not ''Kirei's'' wish, but rather ''Gilgamesh's''.]]

Earlier in the novel, Gilgamesh informs Kirei that he should get a wish ready even if he doesn't have one because the Grail grants whatever wish is closest when it manifests; usually that's the winner of the tournament, but it doesn't ''have'' to be. Kiritsugu shot Kirei after their fight, and since the 'mud' of the corrupted Grail had to build him a new heart to get him on his feet we can assume that he was functionally if temporarily dead. With Kotomine dead, Kiritsugu having rejected the Grail, and Saber's failure to get ''her'' wish a ForegoneConclusion, the only being left around - and who was actually ''inside'' the Grail, not to mention managing to metaphysically overcome it and escape - was Gilgamesh. Though his later wish is to rule over the remnants of humanity, his over-arching interest throughout Fate/Zero is alleviating his boredom; by the halfway point he's clearly settled on Kirei as the most likely prospect to achieve that goal. Having prodded him in the direction of TheUnfettered over the past several chapters, Gilgamesh knows that all Kirei needs is some kind of validation to prove his 'inversed soul' should be satisfied: Conjuring a scene of such devastation, which he knows will appeal to Kirei's 'joy,' is more than enough to get the priest to accept his distortion and proceed along such a path. Which of course, for Gilgamesh, is JustAsPlanned: Now he has someone to keep him supplied with prana ''and'' entertainment until the next Grail War comes along and makes him King.

Earlier in the novel, Gilgamesh informs Kirei that he should probably get a wish ready even if he doesn't have one, because when the Grail descends it'll grant whatever wish is closest at the time; usually that's the winner of the tournament, but it doesn't ''have'' to be. Kiritsugu shot Kirei after their fight, and since the 'mud' of the corrupted Grail had to build him a new heart we can assume that he was functionally dead. With Kotomine temporarily dead, Kiritsugu having rejected the (Corrupted) Grail, and Saber's failure to get ''her'' wish being a ForegoneConclusion, the only being left around - and who was actually ''inside'' the Grail, not to mention managing to metaphysically overcome it and escape - was Gilgamesh. Even though his later wish is to rule over the remnants of humanity, his over-arching interest throughout Fate/Zero is alleviating his boredom, and by the halfway point he's clearly settled on Kirei as the most likely prospect to achieve that goal. Having prodded him in the direction of TheUnfettered over the past several chapters, Gilgamesh knows that all Kirei needs is some kind of validation to prove that his 'inversed soul' should be satisfied: Conjuring a scene of such devastation, which he knows will appeal to Kirei's 'joy,' is more than enough to get the 'interesting' priest to accept his distortion and proceed along such a path. Which of course, for Gilgamesh, is JustAsPlanned: Now he has someone to keep him supplied with prana ''and'' entertainment until the next Grail War comes along and makes him King.