History ValuesDissonance / Persona5

* The results of annual character surveys conducted in Japan or Southeast Asia can seem rather baffling and disappointing to Global audiences from abroad. For example, Ryuji is something of a [[GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff fan favorite among Westerners than with Easterners]] where he gets very little love in official Atlus polls and regularly ranks at the bottom with less votes compared to the other Phantom Thieves. This is because his loud and extroverted nature combined with his rough appearance, makes him come off as rude and annoying in the Far East, while the West tends to see these same traits as cool and endearing.
* Ryuji's [[ButtMonkey butt monkey]] status throughout the game, particularly during the infamous scene where [[AngerBornOfWorry the girls beat him up after believing that he had perished in Shido's palace,]] [[DisproportionateRetribution and making fun at them mourning his apparent death,]] is highly controversial in the West, and is seen as needlessly cruel, with many arguing that this status undermines his character as the victim of physical abuse but in the East, this type of physical comedy is viewed as harmless. In addition, [[https://personacentral.com/persona-5-mementos-reports-vol-3-survey/ said infamous scene ranked fifth place in a Japanese poll as the most popular scene]] with that fanbase considering it as the girls caring about Ryuji.

* Ryuji's [[ButtMonkey butt monkey]] treatment, especially the infamous scene where [[AngerBornOfWorry the girls beat him up after believing that he had perished in Shido's palace,]] [[DisproportionateRetribution and making fun at them mourning his apparent death,]] is highly controversial in the West, and is seen as needlessly cruel, with many arguing that this treatment undermines his character as the victim of physical abuse but in the East, this type of physical comedy is viewed as harmless. In addition, [[https://personacentral.com/persona-5-mementos-reports-vol-3-survey/ that scene was voted number five by Japanese fans as their favorite moment]] with many interpreting it as the girls caring about Ryuji.

* Ryuji's [[ButtMonkey butt monkey]] treatment, especially the infamous scene where [[AngerBornOfWorry the girls beat him up after believing that he had perished in Shido's palace,]] [[DoubleStandardAbuseFemaleOnMale and making fun at them mourning his apparent death,]] is highly controversial in the West, and is seen as needlessly cruel, with many arguing that this undermines his character as the victim of physical abuse but in the East, this treatment is viewed as a harmless slapstick joke. In addition, [[https://personacentral.com/persona-5-mementos-reports-vol-3-survey/ that scene was voted number five by Japanese fans as their favorite moment]] with many viewing it as the girls caring about Ryuji.

* Ryuji’s [[ButtMonkey butt monkey]] treatment, especially the infamous scene where [[AngerBornOfWorry the girls beat him up after believing he had perished in Shido’s palace,]] [[DoubleStandardAbuseFemaleOnMale and making fun at them mourning his apparent death,]] is highly controversial in the West, and is seen as needlessly cruel, with many arguing that this undermines his character as the victim of physical abuse but in the East, this treatment is viewed as a harmless slapstick joke. In addition, [[https://personacentral.com/persona-5-mementos-reports-vol-3-survey/ that scene was voted number five by Japanese fans as their favorite moment]] with many viewing it as the girls caring about Ryuji.

* The game's CentralTheme is a big one. In Western cultures (particularly America), "stand up to corrupt authority rather than blindly following it" comes across as a CaptainObviousAesop, given how the West tends to value and champion personal freedoms over societal harmony. But such a central theme is extremely relevant (and actually quite radical) for Japan. [[JapanesePoliteness Respect for social superiors is heavily ingrained into the culture]], to the point of [[FormalCharactersUseKeigo being hard-wired into the language itself]]. All of the Phantom Thieves' targets are in positions that demand respect from Japanese society, which [[VillainWithGoodPublicity is why they got away with their actions for so long]].

** Related to the above, as discussed in [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM9LM43uHh0 this video]], Haru's ArrangedMarriage arc is a lot more relatable and relevant to Japanese players, as it comments on a practice called "Mukoyoshi", that is is still common in family-run Japanese companies to this day. (Many famous Japanese companies such as Toyota and Suzuki have remained technically "family-run" for generations thanks to this practice, and even a few past Nintendo presidents were examples of Mukoyoshi).

* Related to the above, this game's "harem route" enjoys a decent amount of popularity in Japan, with [[https://personacentral.com/persona-5-poll-characters-memorable-scenes-mementos-reports-vol-2/ a 2019 poll]] showing that 30% of respondents were in a relationship with all romancible Confidants by the game's end, while 39% romanced only one. By contrast, just 7% of western respondents romanced everyone, with 69% dating only one girl. This may be due to the existence of the adult romances, or western fans believing Joker cheating on the girls goes against his perceived sense of justice.

* The results of annual character surveys conducted in Japan or Southeast Asia can seem rather baffling and disappointed to Global audiences from abroad. For example, Ryuji is something of a [[GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff fan favorite among Westerners than with Easterners]] where he gets very little love in official Atlus polls and regularly ranks at the bottom with less votes compared to the other Phantom Thieves. This is because his loud and extroverted nature combined with his rough appearance, makes him come off as rude and annoying in the Far East, while the West tends to see these same traits as cool and endearing.

* Due to a cultural difference between the East and the West, the results of annual character surveys voted by Japanese or other Asian fans can seem rather [[FanMyopia baffling and upsetting to Global audiences from abroad.]] For example, Ryuji is something of a [[GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff fan favorite among Westerners than with Easterners]] where he gets very little love in official Atlus polls and regularly ranks at the bottom with less votes compared to the other Phantom Thieves. This is because his loud and extroverted nature combined with his rough appearance, makes him come off as rude and annoying in the Far East, while the West tends to see these same traits as cool and endearing.

* Okumura is meant to ultimately be more sympathetic than many of the other targets. This is in large part due to how thoroughly he recants and apologizes at the end of his Palace and how he truly cares for his daughter Haru deep down, as well as the fact that he's assassinated on live TV after his change of heart. Unlike Yusuke's reactions with Madarame's fallout which arranges from anger to self-blame to denial, Haru's response for Okumura's assassination was nothing short of sadness and grief, indicating that Okumura only began to exploit Haru quite recently, and his biggest crime sums up as him being a really BadBoss and using underhanded means (such as [[spoiler:hiring Akechi to assassinate rivals]]) to further his business and political careers. However, his political venture and original sin is arranging Haru's marriage for political gain. Arranged marriage is still decently common in Japan (especially among the well-to-do), and the game still makes it clear that the situation is cruel and unfair to Haru largely due to the abusive nature of her fiancé as described later. However, the Western world would consider Okumura's actions horrendous. In Anglophone countries, the practice of arranged marriage for power's sake has become universally reviled, and it makes Haru seem like nothing but a bargaining chip (which Okumura's Palace emphasizes at points). Okumura's initial willingness to force Haru into a marriage with a man who is two drinks and a bad day short of being a ''physically-violent rapist'' puts Okumura squarely into the Kamoshida tier of villainy for many. (The conversation between Okumura's Shadow and the manifestation of how Okumura sees his future son-in-law makes it clear that Okumura knows fully well what he's doing, and doesn't care.) Thus, Okumura's apology doesn't do much to mitigate things. It doesn't help that while the contents of his pre-battle "apology" might be true, it was used for the sake of getting the Thieves to lower their guard. Opinion might've softened on him if he had more time to follow up on improving his relationship with Haru and making her life better, but he isn't given the chance to do that. While in the Third term you do see Okumura genuinely caring for his employees and daughter's well-being, it's [[spoiler:just a fabrication made by Maruki, so even though it might very well be what happened - at least for Haru - before then, it can still mean basically anything]]. So, a Westerner would probably still have trouble with Okumura, no matter what.

* Ryuji’s [[ButtMonkey butt monkey]] treatment, especially the infamous scene where [[AngerBornOfWorry the girls beat him up after believing he had perished in Shido’s palace,]] [[DoubleStandardAbuseFemaleOnMale and making fun at them mourning his apparent death,]] is controversial in the West, and is seen as needlessly cruel, with many arguing that this undermines his character as the victim of physical abuse but in the East, this treatment is viewed as a harmless slapstick joke. In addition, [[https://personacentral.com/persona-5-mementos-reports-vol-3-survey/ that scene was voted number five by Japanese fans their favorite moment]] with many viewing it as the girls caring about Ryuji.

* Ryuji’s [[ButtMonkey butt monkey]] treatment, especially the infamous scene where [[AngerBornOfWorry the girls beat him up after believing he had perished in Shido’s palace,]] [[DoubleStandardAbuseFemaleOnMale and making fun at them mourning his apparent death,]] is controversial in the West, and is seen as needlessly cruel, with many arguing that this undermines his character as a victim of physical abuse but in Japan, this treatment is viewed as a lighthearted slapstick humor. In addition, [[https://personacentral.com/persona-5-mementos-reports-vol-3-survey/ that scene was voted number five as their fan favorite moment]] with many viewing it as the girls caring about Ryuji in a comedic way.

* Okumura is meant to ultimately be more sympathetic than many of the other targets. This is in large part due to how thoroughly he recants and apologizes at the end of his Palace and how he truly cares for his daughter Haru deep down, as well as the fact that he's assassinated on live TV after his change of heart. Unlike Yusuke's reactions with Madarame's fallout which arranges from anger to self-blame to denial, Haru's response for Okumura's assassination was nothing short of sadness and grief, indicating that Okumura only began to exploit Haru quite recently, and his biggest crime sums up as him [[spoiler:making over-ambitious business and political ventures with no regard for other people and led to him being killed]]. However, his political venture and original sin is arranging Haru's marriage for political gain. Arranged marriage is still decently common in Japan (especially among the well-to-do), and the game still makes it clear that the situation is cruel and unfair to Haru largely due to the abusive nature of her fiancé as described later. However, the Western world would consider Okumura's actions horrendous. In Anglophone countries, the practice of arranged marriage for power's sake has become universally reviled, and it makes Haru seem like nothing but a bargaining chip (which Okumura's Palace emphasizes at points). Okumura's initial willingness to force Haru into a marriage with a man who is two drinks and a bad day short of being a ''physically-violent rapist'' puts Okumura squarely into the Kamoshida tier of villainy for many. (The conversation between Okumura's Shadow and the manifestation of how Okumura sees his future son-in-law makes it clear that Okumura knows fully well what he's doing, and doesn't care.) Thus, Okumura's apology doesn't do much to mitigate things. It doesn't help that while the contents of his pre-battle "apology" might be true, it was used for the sake of getting the Thieves to lower their guard. Opinion might've softened on him if he had more time to follow up on improving his relationship with Haru and making her life better, but he isn't given the chance to do that. While in the Third term you do see Okumura genuinely caring for his employees and daughter's well-being, it's [[spoiler:just a fabrication made by Maruki, so even though it might very well be what happened - at least for Haru - before then, it can still mean basically anything]]. So, a Westerner would probably still have trouble with Okumura, no matter what.

** On the same topic of Mukoyoshi, another one of Chihaya's clients mentions being already engaged to his childhood sweetheart but that a client has offered him his daughter's hand in marriage and he's conflicted over what to do since refusing him might spell disaster for his career (as confirmed by Chihaya). This would be a non-issue in most western countries for a number of reasons. While considered a great honor in Japan, no one would give any serious consideration to a marriage proposal in a business lunch in the west and the client's attitude to just giving his daughter away to a business associate wouldn't provoke anything but disgust from the other person (and would probably put into question the values and/or level of inebriation of the person making the proposal).

* Makoto's confidant story being about her friendship with Eiko and trying to save her from being exploited is poorly received and is seen as a weak confidant story in the west, but to the Japanese, Makoto's story with Eiko centers around the criticism to the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JK_business Joshikousei Business]], a type of compensated dating that often had the girls involved in this activity to be victims of human and sex trafficking in Japan; Makoto was trying to save Eiko from potentially becoming a SexSlave.

* After being falsely convicted of assaulting a politician, Joker is sentenced to a year's probation. To most people in the West, this is a very light sentence; while it's certainly unfair to Joker since he was framed, it likely wouldn't haunt him for the rest of his life if he were American or European. But to the Japanese people, having a blemish on your record ''at all'' [[OnceDoneNeverForgotten irrevocably tarnishes your name forever]]. Hence everyone initially treats Joker like he's a hardened criminal after his record gets leaked, and why he had to move to Tokyo just to find a school that would accept him after he got expelled from his old school.