History MoralEventHorizon / MythsAndReligion

** Demeter crossed it in the story of Hades and Persephone by causing a deadly famine throughout the entire world to spite Zeus in response to Persephone’s kidnapping ([[RevengeByProxy even though not one of the countless humans who died as a result was in any way involved in the kidnapping]]) and subsequently threatening to [[FinalSolution intentionally let all life in the entire world die out from said famine]] unless she got Persephone back. Her grief over her daughter’s kidnapping is understandable, but not nearly enough to justify the innocent bloodshed that she was willing to cause on a global scale.

** Demeter crossed it in the story of Hades and Persephone by causing a deadly famine throughout the entire world in response to Persephone’s kidnapping ([[RevengeByProxy even though not one of the countless humans who died as a result was in any way involved in the kidnapping]]) and subsequently threatening to [[FinalSolution intentionally let all life in the entire world die out from said famine]] unless she got Persephone back. Her grief over her daughter’s kidnapping is understandable, but not nearly enough to justify the innocent bloodshed that she was willing to cause on a global scale.

* In the Literature/BookOfExodus, the first Pharaoh crosses it when he enslaves the Hebrews and orders the deaths of their firstborn male children, just out of paranoia that they ''might'' side against Egypt in a war, even though the Israelites have been nothing but loyal to Egypt up to this point. His successor, the Pharaoh of the Exodus, crosses it in turn when [[ILied he changes his mind about letting the Hebrews go]].

* In later, [[WordOfDante more localized adaptations]] of Buddhism, there are many hells, or ''Narakas'', where those who racked up particularly bad karma were reborn, where they live, suffer, die, and are reborn again for many kalpas (eons) on end until they have worked off all their bad karma. But the lowest hell, Avici, is reserved for those who commit one or more of the ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anantarika-karma anantarika-karma]]'', or the Five Grave Offenses, the personal {{Moral Event Horizon}}s of the religion: intentionally [[{{patricide}} murdering one's father]], intentionally [[{{matricide}} murdering one's mother]], killing an ''arhat'' (enlightened being), shedding the blood of a Buddha, and causing a schism in the ''sangha'' (the community of Buddhist monks and nuns). Existence in the Avici hell lasts the longest out of all of the other hells put together, such that it is often known as "the non-stop way."

* In later, [[WordOfDante more localized adaptations]] of Buddhism, there are many hells, or ''Narakas'', where those who racked up particularly bad karma were reborn, where they live, suffer, die, and are reborn again for many kalpas (eons) on end until they have worked off all their bad karma. But the lowest hell, Avici, is reserved for those who commit one or more of the ''anantarika-karma'', or the Five Grave Offenses, the personal {{Moral Event Horizon}}s of the religion: intentionally [[{{patricide}} murdering one's father]], intentionally [[{{matricide}} murdering one's mother]], killing an ''arhat'' (enlightened being), shedding the blood of a Buddha, and causing a schism in the ''sangha'' (the community of Buddhist monks and nuns). Existence in the Avici hell lasts the longest out of all of the other hells put together, such that it is often known as "the non-stop way."

* In later, [[WordOfDante more localized adaptations]] of Buddhism, there are many hells, or ''Narakas'', where those who racked up particularly bad karma were reborn, where they live, suffer, die, and are reborn again for many kalpas (eons) on end until they have worked off all their bad karma. But the lowest hell, Avici, is reserved for those who commit one or more of the Five Grave Offenses, the personal {{Moral Event Horizon}}s of the religion: intentionally [[{{patricide}} murdering one's father]], intentionally [[{{matricide}} murdering one's mother]], killing an ''arhat'' (enlightened being), shedding the blood of a Buddha, and causing a schism in the ''sangha'' (the community of Buddhist monks and nuns). Existence in the Avici hell lasts the longest out of all of the other hells put together, such that it is often known as "the non-stop way."
** The crimes listed are so terrible that it is ''very'' rare for a Buddhist monk to publicly condemn a man to Avici, as it's a serious accusation that could be seen as MaliciousSlander if proven untrue.

[[folder:Buddism]]

* [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement Some]] 19th century [[UsefulNotes/{{Mormonism}} Mormon theologians and Brigham Young]] [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement made the hypothesis]] that some sins weren't covered by Jesus's death and had to be paid ''literally with the offender's [[RedemptionEqualsDeath own blood]]'' (see [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement blood atonement]]).

* It's hard to pinpoint exactly when King Saul crossed it, but there are two candidates.

** If that doesn't sell you on the point that [[Literature/BooksOfSamuel King Saul]] had sealed his own fate, his unrelenting destruction of a city of priests and the execution of most of the same, including their families – yes, women and children included – certainly will. How unnecessarily cruel was it? ''Only one of his men was willing to carry out the grisly mass murder.''

** In the Literature/BookOfRevelation, taking the "mark of the beast" and worshiping his image is considered a Moral Event Horizon. Also, removing anything from the book will have one's name removed from the Book of Life, while adding anything to the book will cause the plagues and curses in the book to be added unto that person.
** According to Orthodox Christianity, there is no MoralEventHorizon as long as a man repents. However, by commiting sins (which we always do), he can go to the state of unrepentance. Only this counts. And a suicide, as mentioned before, DOES count as a MoralEventHorizon, as a man can only repent when he is alive. Even sin against the Holy Spirit is forgivable, as long as repentance follows.
** Christian tradition holds that the Devil crossed it the moment he rebelled against God and literally brought evil into the world. Catholic theologians, such as Thomas Aquinas, have stated that, though a human may eventually repent and be forgiven no matter how grievous their sins, Satan and the other fallen angels will ''never'' do this, because it is not in their nature.
** Orthodox Christianity states that the devil's (and later other demons) is the corruption of Adam and Eve (and later temptation, making the whole human race suffer the same FateWorseThanDeath that awaits them. TakingYouWithMe in an extreme form. Before that, some saints state, redemption was still possible for them. [[DownerEnding After that...]]
** Another condition that renders one unforgivable according to Christianity is [[NoSympathyForGrudgeholders not forgiving anyone and everyone]], even if they did something seriously evil like murdering someone. The logic being that even the most minor sin against God is greater than anything humans can do to one another, so to expect God to clear our debts, we must be willing to clear ours. Though some Christians do take this to the extreme of not seeking justice for crimes done to them or their family, most Christians stress that this doesn't mean that offenders are not to be brought to justice for the offense, and it also does not mean having to interact with them or otherwise restore normal friendship/trust to them, or otherwise put oneself in danger of being hurt again.
* In Islam, ''Shirk'', translated as "idolatry" or "association" is stated as the only sin that God won't forgive on the Last Day. The concept is broad: it includes establishment of "partners" placed beside God or denying his existence. Saying that God has a son or is part of a Trinity as Christians do also counts as Shirk.

** If that doesn't sell you on the point that King Saul had sealed his own fate, his unrelenting destruction of a city of priests and the execution of most of the same, including their families – yes, women and children included – certainly will. How unnecessarily cruel was it? ''Only one of his men was willing to carry out the grisly mass murder.''

** In older Catholic teaching and WordOfDante, the only truly unforgivable sin is to commit self-murder ({{suicide|IsShameful}}), since you're not alive anymore to be forgiven afterward. In recent years (since the Second Vatican Council), the Roman Catholic Church has ceased to teach that suicide is unforgivable. Quoting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, sec. 2283: "We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives."
*** The Catholic teaching on mortal sin is that it must be a deliberate act with the knowledge that it is a mortal sin. A completed suicide is unforgivable for someone who understood it to be a mortal sin and freely chose to commit it anyway. Not so for someone who is clinically insane and therefore lacking full control over his/her faculties. Some Christians hold that nobody who actually ''wants'' to die could be considered sane in any normal sense, so suicide is never actually a sin.

** In the book of Revelation, taking the "mark of the beast" and worshiping his image is considered a Moral Event Horizon.
** According to various verses in the New Testament, rejecting the offer to accept Jesus as savior and rejecting His gift of forgiveness and salvation can be seen as a Moral Event Horizon. Note that this happens during the person's death.

* In Christianity, a religion that doesn't completely rule out redemption for murderers, the truly "unforgivable sin" is [[http://robertwells.tripod.com/unforgivable.html the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.]] Even then, the general theological interpretation is that you have to have actually seen God and known you were seeing God, [[RageAgainstTheHeavens and THEN had a foaming, ranting, denying rage against him to count]] (beyond NayTheist, SmiteMeOhMightySmiter, and declaration of GodIsEvil levels), and that no one can be saved while ''in the middle'' of a RageAgainstTheHeavens, since you have to be a complete, through-and-through jerk to be left unforgiven -- afterwards, perhaps, redemption is an option. If the raging person doesn't fall into distrust of God and despair first.

* In Islam, ''Shirk'', translated as "idolatry" or "association" is stated as the only sin that God won't forgive the Last Day. The concept is broad: it includes establishment of "partners" placed beside God or denying his existence. Saying that God has a son or is part of a Trinity as Christians do also counts as Shirk.

** Until the second time David failed to show up after being invited to one of King Saul's banquets, Jonathan, who Saul was certain was first in line to succeed him, thought that King Saul was simply out of his mind. But when Jonathan gave him a cover story that David wanted to spend some time with his family, King Saul snapped, called him a son of a bitch, and–more heinous than that–actually tried to kill his own son.
** If that doesn't sell you on the point that King Saul had sealed his own fate, his unrelenting destruction of a city of priests and the execution of most of the same, including their families–yes, women and children included–certainly will. How unnecessarily cruel was it? ''Only one of his men was willing to carry out the grisly mass murder.''
* [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement Some]] 19th century [[UsefulNotes/{{Mormonism}} Mormon theologians and Brigham Young]] [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement made the hypothesis]] some sins weren't covered by Jesus's death and had to be paid ''literally with the offender's [[RedemptionEqualsDeath own blood]]'' (see [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement blood atonement]]).
** Similarly the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_perdition_(Mormonism) sons of perdition]][[note]]Those who either, during their pre-mortal life, aligned themselves with Satan's plan of salvation, or, in mortal life, have "denied the Holy Ghost" i.e. rejecting and denying Christ after receiving a personal witness and a "perfect knowledge" of Jesus (see "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" above)[[/note]] are not to benefit either of the [[{{Heaven}} celestial, terrestrial or telestial]] glory but instead are cast into the [[TheNothingAfterDeath outer darkness]] with Satan and his angels.

** Avici hell means "without waves". One can translate it to ''The Ceaseless''. With a cosmology where a trillion of trillion years is a mere metric for time, this should clarify that the cosmic judgment of karma only reserves Avici for the most vile only.
** Also, considering the cyclic nature of Buddhist cosmology, even sins fit for Avici is not truly irredeemable. Still, that is only ''theoretical''. Nobody who has fallen into Avici, since the beginning of reality an infinity years ago, has been redeemed yet.
** However, there is dispute about when this idea originated. Traditionally, it comes from the story of Devadatta, a monk who killed his father, twice assaulted the Buddha, and split the sangha. But there are at least two versions of the story of Devadatta - one of which has him being consigned to a very long stay in Avici and one of which has him repenting and achieving some level of enlightenment. Some historians date the story of Devadatta to a hundred years or more after the Buddha died, which would make it a later addition.
* In Myth/ClassicalMythology, you can do almost anything-including murder and rape-and still be considered a hero, but there are three exceptions, and any hero who committed one of these three sins would lose their title: {{Hubris}}, impiety, and violation of [[SacredHospitality xenia]].
** Tantalus committed all three of the above sins while also cementing two more acts as among the worst taboos in Greek Mythology: cannibalism and murdering your offspring. Tantalus killed his son, cooked him, and tried to feed him to the Greek gods, succeeding with Demeter. Tantalus did all this just to prove himself better than the gods. By killing his own son, and making one of the gods an unwitting cannibal, Tantalus became one of the worst humans in Greek Mythology.
** Before Tantalus, Zeus' father and predecessor Cronus solidified cannibalism and murder of his offspring as one of the worst taboos in Greek Mythology by how he tried to stop his children from overthrowing him; [[EatsBabies swallowing them alive as newborns]] and imprisoned them in his belly, an act [[NotSoDifferent which was just as bad]] as how his own father sealed him and his fellow Titans within Gaea. Thankfully his wife hid the infant Zeus from him, [[LaserGuidedKarma who rescued his siblings, then castrated and dethroned him]].

* In Christianity, a religion that doesn't completely rule out redemption for murderers, the truly "unforgivable sin" is [[http://robertwells.tripod.com/unforgivable.html the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.]] Even then, the general theological interpretation is that you have to have actually seen God and known you were seeing God, [[RAGEAgainstTheHeavens and THEN had a foaming, ranting, denying rage against him to count,]] (beyond NayTheist, SmiteMeOhMightySmiter and declaration of GodIsEvil levels) and that no one can be saved while ''in the middle'' of a RageAgainstTheHeavens, since you have to be a complete, through-and-through jerk to be left unforgiven -- afterwards, perhaps, redemption is an option. If the raging person doesn't fall into distrust of God and despair first.

*** The old rule of suicide being a mortal sin was an ObviousRulePatch when some early Christians realised that, as Heaven is infinitely better to life on earth there was no point hanging around here, and that the most logical course of action for a true believer was to commit suicide immediately after baptism, both to minimise their suffering and to avoid the risk of sinning.

** According to Orthodox Christianity, there is no MoralEventHorizon as long as a man repents. However, by commiting sins (which we always do), he can go to the state of unrepentance. Only this counts. And a suicide, as mentioned before DOES count as a MoralEventHorizon, as a man can only repent when he is alive. Even the sin agains Holy Spirit, is forgivable, as long repentance follows.

** Another condition that renders one unforgivable according to Christianity is [[NoSympathyForGrudgeholders not forgiving anyone and everyone]], even if they did something seriously evil like murdering someone. The logic being, that even the most minor sin against god is greater than anything humans can do to one another, so to expect god to clear our debts we must be willing to clear ours. Though some Christians do take this to the extreme of not seeking justice for crimes done to them or their family, most Christians stress that this doesn't mean that offenders are not to be brought to justice for the offense, and it also does not mean having to interact with them or otherwise restore normal friendship/trust to them, or otherwise put oneself in danger of being hurt again.

* In Myth/NorseMythology, Loki's murder of Balder and [[KickTheDog refusal to weep for him, thus making him unable to return to life]] is the moment when he becomes the enemy of the rest of the Norse gods.

** Another condition that renders one unforgivable according to Christianity is not forgiving anyone and everyone, even if they did something seriously evil like murdering someone. The logic being, that even the most minor sin against god is greater than anything humans can do to one another, so to expect god to clear our debts we must be willing to clear ours. Though some Christians do take this to the extreme of not seeking justice for crimes done to them or their family, most Christians stress that this doesn't mean that offenders are not to be brought to justice for the offense, and it also does not mean having to interact with them or otherwise restore normal friendship/trust to them, or otherwise put oneself in danger of being hurt again.

* In later, [[WordOfDante more localized adaptations]] of Buddhism, there are many hells, or ''Narakas'', where those who racked up particularly bad karma were reborn, where they live, suffer, die, and are reborn again for many kalpas (eons) on end until they have worked off all their bad karma. But the lowest hell, Avici, is reserved for those who commit one or more of the Five Grave Offenses, the personal {{Moral Event Horizon}}s of the religion: intentionally murdering one's father, intentionally murdering one's mother, killing an ''arhat'' (enlightened being), shedding the blood of a Buddha, and causing a schism in the ''sangha'' (the community of Buddhist monks and nuns). Existence in the Avici hell lasts the longest out of all of the other hells put together, such that it is often known as "the non-stop way."

* Another condition that renders one unforgivable according to Christianity is not forgiving anyone and everyone, even if they did something seriously evil like murdering someone. The logic being, that even the most minor sin against god is greater than anything humans can do to one another, so to expect god to clear our debts we must be willing to clear ours. Though some Christians do take this to the extreme of not seeking justice for crimes done to them or their family, most Christians stress that this doesn't mean that offenders are not to be brought to justice for the offense, and it also does not mean having to interact with them or otherwise restore normal friendship/trust to them, or otherwise put oneself in danger of being hurt again.

* In Islam, ''Shirk'', translated as "idolatry" or "association" is stated as the only sin that God won't forgive the Last Day. The concept is broad: it includes establishment of "partners" placed beside God or denying his existence. Saying that God has a son or is part of a Trinity like christians do also counts as Shirk.

* [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement Some]] 19th century [[UsefulNotes/{{Mormonism}} Mormon theologians and Brigham Young]] [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement made the hypothesis]] some sins weren't covered by Jesus's death and had to be paid ''litteraly with the offender's [[RedemptionEqualsDeath own blood]]'' (see [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement blood atonement]]).

* In Myth/NorseMythology one could argue Loki [[KickTheDog refusing to cry after killing Baldur, thus making him unable to return to life]] is this.

** Leto, Apollo and Artemis cross it when the former sent the other two to [[WouldHurtAChild slaughters the children]] of Niobe because [[RevengeByProxy their mother claimed to be more beautiful than her]].

** Similarly the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_perdition_(Mormonism) sons of perdition]][[note]]Those who either, uring their pre-mortal life, aligned themselves with Satan's plan of salvation, or, in mortal life, have "denied the Holy Ghost" i.e. rejecting and denying Christ after receiving a personal witness and a "perfect knowledge" of Jesus (see "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" above)[[/note]] are not to benefit either of the [[{{Heaven}} celestial, terrestrial or telestial]] glory but instead are cast into the [[TheNothingAfterDeath outer darkness]] with Satan and his angels.

** Orthodox Christianity states that the devil's (and later other demons) is the corruption of Adam and Eve (and later temptation, making the whole human race suffer the same FateWorseThanDeath that awaites them. TakingYouWithMe in an extreme form. Before that, some saints state, redemption was still possible for them. [[DownerEnding After that...]]