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{{Tropers/Zenfrodo}}: So in ''A Wizard's Holiday'', Filif has a huge issue with us humans eating plants, and Darine takes great pains to keep him from the salad bar. Filif is a tree. Wouldn't he have a much '''bigger''' issue with the Callahans' tables, cabinets, furniture, house fixtures? Wood, though, is what he's made of; it'd be like us humans walking into Filif's house and seeing stuff made out of human skin & bone.

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** Hmm... now that's interesting. Say that you're kind of clingy and would be insulted to hear that your spouse has remarried or taken up a second lover in the living world, even if you had already divorced them or something. Would that mean that being Timeheart changes who you are, or how you think? Kind of like a more benevolent version of GettingSmiliesPaintedOnYourSoul? I mean, I guess everyone has to change a little bit to fit in to the perfect world of Timeheart, but still... changing people's personalities without their knowledge to avoid conflicts is usually only something that features in horror stories.
*** Well, it's not actually changing. What Timeheart is the perfect universe. Remember how alternate universes work, where every choice (and actually, every movement of a subatomic particle, but that may or may not be relevant) goes every way at once, with different outcomes going into different universes? Timeheart is the universe where literally ''everything'' went right - up to and including the Lone Power deciding to create death. So the people in Timeheart don't change - they were just always as perfect as a sentient being can be. And apparently the Powers that be also tack in their alternate selves memories or something? Or they could just be being kind/acting.

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** Hmm... now that's interesting. Say that you're kind of clingy and would be insulted to hear that your spouse has remarried or taken up a second lover in the living world, even if you had already divorced them or something. Would that mean that being in Timeheart changes who you are, or how you think? Kind of like a more benevolent version of GettingSmiliesPaintedOnYourSoul? I mean, I guess everyone has to change a little bit to fit in to the perfect world of Timeheart, but still... changing people's personalities without their knowledge to avoid conflicts is usually only something that features in horror stories.
*** Well, it's not actually changing. What Timeheart is is the perfect universe. Remember how alternate universes work, where every choice (and actually, every movement of a subatomic particle, but that may or may not be relevant) goes every way at once, with different outcomes going into different universes? Timeheart is the universe where literally ''everything'' went right - up to and including the Lone Power deciding to create death. So the people in Timeheart don't change - they were just always as perfect as a sentient being can be. And apparently the Powers that be also tack in their alternate selves memories or something? Or they could just be being kind/acting.
**** So they could be simultaneously married to multiple people and not cheating on either of them, because both versions of history simultaneously exist in a perfect form?
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** Getting to visit Timeheart seems like a reward from the Powers for a job well done - Kit and Nita only ever visit in their dreams, and apparently only in the early books. It may be the Powers see this as something important for new wizards to experience, otherwise the promise of an afterlife reward for their service would be a hollow TakeOurWordForIt. Being able to know about Timeheart with empirical certainty is something mere Muggles don't get the privilege of, and avoids a whole lot of problems that would come out of blind faith.
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* Don't forget that the sad clown isn't the Lone Power in its entirety. It's only a fragment, which IIRC had already been described as a particularly aggressive version. No redeeming possible in this case, the best option being to trap it so it doesn't hurt anyone else.

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*** Timeheart is another universe, like any other universe... and like any other universe, it's bloody hard to visit.


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*** Well, it's not actually changing. What Timeheart is the perfect universe. Remember how alternate universes work, where every choice (and actually, every movement of a subatomic particle, but that may or may not be relevant) goes every way at once, with different outcomes going into different universes? Timeheart is the universe where literally ''everything'' went right - up to and including the Lone Power deciding to create death. So the people in Timeheart don't change - they were just always as perfect as a sentient being can be. And apparently the Powers that be also tack in their alternate selves memories or something? Or they could just be being kind/acting.
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** Hmm... now that's interesting. Say that you're kind of clingy and would be insulted to hear that your spouse has remarried or taken up a second lover in the living world, even if you had already divorced them or something. Would that mean that being Timeheart changes who you are, or how you think? Kind of like a more benevolent version of GettingSmiliesPaintedOnYourSoul? I mean, I guess everyone has to change a little bit to fit in to the perfect world of Timeheart, but still... changing people's personalities without their knowledge to avoid conflicts is usually only something that features in horror stories.
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*I don't think people in Timeheart would care about that sort of thing. There's actually a little known line in the Bible that addresses this, where someone asks Jesus about people who have multiple dead spouses and he replies that "in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven" (Matthew 22:30), presumably meaning the institution of binding marriage is done away with and people are either asexual or can love whoever they want to.
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Make sure to spell \"Chekhov\" correctly.


* The in-universe justification is that even contemplating accepting the Lone Power's [[DealWithTheDevil offer to cure her mom's cancer if she gives up her wizardry]] was a [[CantGetAwayWithNuthin violation of her Oath]], and [[DisproportionateRetribution her wizardry has been draining away as a result]]. Or something. It's been awhile since I've read that particular book. The point is, the change was in her ability to perform wizardry, so she needed [[BigDamnHeroes Kit to show up with that]] [[ChekovsGun old copy of her name]].

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* The in-universe justification is that even contemplating accepting the Lone Power's [[DealWithTheDevil offer to cure her mom's cancer if she gives up her wizardry]] was a [[CantGetAwayWithNuthin violation of her Oath]], and [[DisproportionateRetribution her wizardry has been draining away as a result]]. Or something. It's been awhile since I've read that particular book. The point is, the change was in her ability to perform wizardry, so she needed [[BigDamnHeroes Kit to show up with that]] [[ChekovsGun [[ChekhovsGun old copy of her name]].
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Timeheart has the same kind of FridgeLogic that comes with all "living forever afterlife" scenarios, but this one in particular bothers me. Now that [[spoiler: Betty Callahan is dead [[TearJerker *sniff*]]]], what's going to happen if [[spoiler: Harry]] ever wants to get remarried? Or ever even dates another [[spoiler: woman]]? After they all die and go to Timeheart, won't that make for an awkward reunion?
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* I've been thinking about that too! I mean, when you think about all of the huge wizardries (that just make the Lone Power hate her more and more) that she's done lately, and how so many characters get [[KilledOffForReal Killed Off For Real]] without too much fuss... it kind of makes you wonder if Nita's going to be around much longer. But, barring Dairine of course, Nita draws more parallels to the LP than any other wizard in the series. She doesn't suffer ''too'' much guilt over killing things, as long as she isn't friendly with them, like when she was killing the drows in AWAb. She was the one that was most affected by King Bug, she's the only main character to make a deal with the LP, the thing in AWAl... all kinds of little things like that. Maybe all of this is foreshadowing, and Nita is intended to become another Hesper...? At the end of the series, maybe? After all, it's gonna take something big to pay off all those wizardry bills...

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* I've been thinking about that too! I mean, when you think about all of the huge wizardries (that just make the Lone Power hate her more and more) that she's done lately, and how so many characters get [[KilledOffForReal Killed Off For Real]] without too much fuss... it kind of makes you wonder if Nita's going to be around much longer. But, barring Dairine of course, Nita draws more parallels to the LP than any other wizard in the series. She doesn't suffer ''too'' much guilt over killing things, as long as she isn't friendly with them, like when she was killing the drows in AWAb. She was the one that was most affected by King Bug, she's the only main character to make a deal with the LP, the thing in AWAl... all kinds of little things like that. Maybe all of this is foreshadowing, and Nita is intended to become [[spoiler: another Hesper...Hesper]]...? At the end of the series, maybe? After all, it's gonna take something big to pay off all those wizardry bills...
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** Something to do with [[spoiler: Bobo]] maybe?
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Did anyone else find Nita's delight at seeing the Lone One suffer [[AFateWorseThanDeath A Fate Worse Than Death]] a little disturbing? At the beginning of A Wizard Alone, Nita has a dream about a clown being mocked by an audience, which we later find out is a representation for [[AndIMustScream how trapped Darryl feels]] during his Ordeal. Near the end of the book, we get to see her [[CircusOfFear Circus of Fear]] nightmare again, and it is made clear that the LP is now the sad clown cycling in circles indefinitely, rather than Darryl. She is said to wake up smiling over it. Nita is usually quite compassionate, [[SympathyForTheDevil even towards the Lone One]], which makes the moment seem strangely OOC.

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Did anyone else find Nita's delight at seeing the Lone One suffer [[AFateWorseThanDeath A Fate Worse Than Death]] a little disturbing? At the beginning of A Wizard Alone, Nita has a dream about a clown being mocked by an audience, which we later find out is a representation for [[AndIMustScream how trapped Darryl feels]] during his Ordeal. Near the end of the book, we get to see her [[CircusOfFear Circus of Fear]] nightmare again, and it is it's made clear that the LP is now the sad clown cycling in circles indefinitely, rather than Darryl. She is said to wake wakes up smiling over it. Nita is usually quite compassionate, [[SympathyForTheDevil even towards the Lone One]], which makes the moment seem strangely really OOC.




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* I've been thinking about that too! I mean, when you think about all of the huge wizardries (that just make the Lone Power hate her more and more) that she's done lately, and how so many characters get [[KilledOffForReal Killed Off For Real]] without too much fuss... it kind of makes you wonder if Nita's going to be around much longer. But, barring Dairine of course, Nita draws more parallels to the LP than any other wizard in the series. She doesn't suffer ''too'' much guilt over killing things, as long as she isn't friendly with them, like when she was killing the drows in AWAb. She was the one that was most affected by King Bug, she's the only main character to make a deal with the LP, the thing in AWAl... all kinds of little things like that. Maybe all of this is foreshadowing, and Nita is intended to become another Hesper...? At the end of the series, maybe? After all, it's gonna take something big to pay off all those wizardry bills...
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* Good point! I always had a little nagging feeling when I read that, like it was an unsatisfying ending, but I never thought about it that specifically. Maybe it'll have repercussions later on? Nita's wizardly bills seem to be piling up (she paid for the blank-check, but then there's the years-of-her-life in HW, and the thing with the Lone One in TWD, and the huge wizardry in AWoM, all that stuff . . .)
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Did anyone else find Nita's delight at seeing the Lone One suffer [[AFateWorseThanDeath A Fate Worse Than Death]] a little disturbing? At the beginning of A Wizard Alone, Nita has a dream about a clown being mocked by an audience, which we later find out is a representation for [[AndIMustScream how trapped Darryl feels]] during his Ordeal. Near the end of the book, we get to see her [[CircusOfFear Circus of Fear]] nightmare again, and it is made clear that the LP is now the sad clown cycling in circles indefinitely, rather than Darryl. She is said to wake up smiling over it. This kind of suffering is something to be mourned, not celebrated, no matter who the clown is currently representing. Nita is usually quite compassionate, [[SympathyForTheDevil even towards the Lone One]], which makes this moment seem strangely OOC.

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Did anyone else find Nita's delight at seeing the Lone One suffer [[AFateWorseThanDeath A Fate Worse Than Death]] a little disturbing? At the beginning of A Wizard Alone, Nita has a dream about a clown being mocked by an audience, which we later find out is a representation for [[AndIMustScream how trapped Darryl feels]] during his Ordeal. Near the end of the book, we get to see her [[CircusOfFear Circus of Fear]] nightmare again, and it is made clear that the LP is now the sad clown cycling in circles indefinitely, rather than Darryl. She is said to wake up smiling over it. This kind of suffering is something to be mourned, not celebrated, no matter who the clown is currently representing. Nita is usually quite compassionate, [[SympathyForTheDevil even towards the Lone One]], which makes this the moment seem strangely OOC.
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correcting errors


Did anyone else find Nita's delight at seeing the Lone One suffer [[AFateWorseThanDeath A Fate Worse Than Death]] a little disturbing? At the beginning of A Wizard Alone, Nita has a dream about a clown being mocked by an audience, which we later find out is a representation for how trapped Darrel feels during his Ordeal. Near the end of A Wizard Alone, we get to see her [[CircusOfFear Circus of Fear]] nightmare again, and it is made clear that the LP is now the sad clown cycling in circles indefinitely, rather than Darrel. She is said to wake up smiling over it. This kind of suffering is something to be mourned, not celebrated, no matter who the clown is currently representing. Nita is usually quite compassionate, [[SympathyForTheDevil even towards the Lone One]], which makes this moment seem strangely OOC.

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Did anyone else find Nita's delight at seeing the Lone One suffer [[AFateWorseThanDeath A Fate Worse Than Death]] a little disturbing? At the beginning of A Wizard Alone, Nita has a dream about a clown being mocked by an audience, which we later find out is a representation for [[AndIMustScream how trapped Darrel feels Darryl feels]] during his Ordeal. Ordeal. Near the end of A Wizard Alone, the book, we get to see her [[CircusOfFear Circus of Fear]] nightmare again, and it is made clear that the LP is now the sad clown cycling in circles indefinitely, rather than Darrel. Darryl. She is said to wake up smiling over it. This kind of suffering is something to be mourned, not celebrated, no matter who the clown is currently representing. Nita is usually quite compassionate, [[SympathyForTheDevil even towards the Lone One]], which makes this moment seem strangely OOC.
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added information

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Did anyone else find Nita's delight at seeing the Lone One suffer [[AFateWorseThanDeath A Fate Worse Than Death]] a little disturbing? At the beginning of A Wizard Alone, Nita has a dream about a clown being mocked by an audience, which we later find out is a representation for how trapped Darrel feels during his Ordeal. Near the end of A Wizard Alone, we get to see her [[CircusOfFear Circus of Fear]] nightmare again, and it is made clear that the LP is now the sad clown cycling in circles indefinitely, rather than Darrel. She is said to wake up smiling over it. This kind of suffering is something to be mourned, not celebrated, no matter who the clown is currently representing. Nita is usually quite compassionate, [[SympathyForTheDevil even towards the Lone One]], which makes this moment seem strangely OOC.
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**** Also, babies who aren't even ''born'' are loved by their mothers (yes, even if the mom gets an abortion - abortion is an ''extremely'' difficult choice.) So let's go out on a limb and say the mother was incapable of love - the Powers would still love the child, love everyone unconditionally. So yeah.
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* The in-universe justification is that even contemplating accepting the Lone Power's [[DealWithTheDevil offer to cure her mom's cancer if she gives up her wizardry]] was a [[CantGetAwayWithNuthin violation of her Oath]], and [[DisproportionateRetribution her wizardry has been draining away as a result]]. Or something. It's been awhile since I've read that particular book. The point is, the change was in her ability to perform wizardry, so she needed [[BigDamnHeroes Kit to show up with that]] [[ChekovsGun old copy of her name]].
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* It's implied that it CAn cause changes, not, I think, that it will.

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* It's implied that it CAn CAN cause changes, not, I think, that it will.
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* In the first book, it's implied that writing your name wrong in a spell changes you. However, in the fifth book, Nita casts a spell using her name that turns out to be wrong because she's changed in the interim. Instead of changing her, it simply doesn't work. Ehwhat?!?

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* In the first book, it's implied that writing your name wrong in a spell changes you. However, in the fifth book, Nita casts a spell using her name that turns out to be wrong because she's changed in the interim. Instead of changing her, it simply doesn't work. Ehwhat?!?
* It's implied that it CAn cause changes, not, I think, that it will.
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*** Or it was planted there by somebody, and it isn't really owned by the library at all.
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*In the first book, it's implied that writing your name wrong in a spell changes you. However, in the fifth book, Nita casts a spell using her name that turns out to be wrong because she's changed in the interim. Instead of changing her, it simply doesn't work. Ehwhat?!?
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* I can't even tell what this is saying, but I get the vague impression that it is trying to insult Carmela, so let me just say that I beg to differ.




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** Presumably it was as stated above, and like the interactions adult wizards tend to have with the Lone Power, where it doesn't show up directly. Maybe Ronan was older than most people during his Ordeal, or it did have something to do with the One's Champion. As for the reason Nita isn't shocked anyway, since she is startled when the Lone Power didn't show up during ''A Wizard of Mars,'' she probably just didn't realize that it was so atypical. Or possibly [[ContinuityDrift Continuity]] [[OverlyLongGag Drift]].
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* That's because it is tangled. Probably due in part to the large gap of time between the writing of books four and five. WordofGod had this to say about timeline problems, during the writing of Wizard's Holiday: "As of 2003, Nita is fourteen in her world, but it's taken twenty of our years for her to reach that age. I doubt she'd be overly concerned by this seeming paradox, assuming that she ever came to perceive herself as fiction (and in wizardry, stranger things have happened.). In Nita's world, as in mine, it's always now."
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The timeline seems very tangled to me- I can't work out anybody's age or how long it is from one book to another.
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** Also, Timeheart may not be something you can CHOOSE to visit. You visit, or you don't, but it is not under your control.
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comment about the "whales are running how low on wizards?" thing



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*Justified by the blank check (was it "cheque"?) wizardry (The Moebius spell) in the first book; this is explicitly mentioned in the second. i.e. Nita promised to pay an unspecified price at a later date, the Powers then asked for a life. The second book plainly states that Nita's role in the song is payment for the spell.
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*It wasn't the whales that trapped Nita in the role; it was Nita herself. No one asked her to sing the Silent Lord. She volunteered, and insisted that she wanted to do it when questioned, even after she'd been told by more than one reliable source to make sure she knew what she was getting into. And if Nita had not agreed to take the role, it ideally would have been a juvenile whale to sing the part - the reason that the Song of the Twelve is so powerful is the magnitude of the Silent Lord's sacrifice. It ''has'' to be someone giving up their entire life and potential for the good of the world - "Not old enough to love, as yet/but old enough to die indeed." Using a mature wizard might work a little, but you've got to have a kid willingly sacrifice themself for the full potency of the ritual to take effect. I wouldn't be surprised if the Silent Lord is often sung by a wizard on Ordeal.
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** Or the librarian was a wizard too, and she gave Nita the manual never expecting to get it back.
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* Ronan's Ordeal isn't really about him taking in the sea, though that's what he has to do. It's about him protecting the invaders he hates so much. In fact, his then infra-affinity for water makes it easier for him to pull it off! Ronan's Ordeal is unusual because it's really subtle in comparison to the others we've seen, and relies on Ronan's own character being susceptible to the Lone Power's suggestions that he let the Romans die. Or, alternatively, ContinuityDrift

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