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** The in-universe justification is that even contemplating accepting the Lone Power's [[DealWithTheDevil offer to cure her mom's cancer if she gives up her wizardry]] was a [[CantGetAwayWithNuthin violation of her Oath]], and [[DisproportionateRetribution her wizardry has been draining away as a result]]. Or something. It's been awhile since I've read that particular book. The point is, the change was in her ability to perform wizardry, so she needed [[BigDamnHeroes Kit to show up with that]] [[ChekhovsGun old copy of her name]].

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** The in-universe justification is that even contemplating accepting the Lone Power's [[DealWithTheDevil offer to cure her mom's cancer if she gives up her wizardry]] was a [[CantGetAwayWithNuthin violation of her Oath]], Oath, and [[DisproportionateRetribution her wizardry has been draining away as a result]]. Or something. It's been awhile since I've read that particular book. result. The point is, the change was in her ability to perform wizardry, so she needed [[BigDamnHeroes Kit to show up with that]] [[ChekhovsGun old copy of her name]].
name]]. In other words, Nita had already been changed, so Kit was, essentially, changing her back.


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** Not to mention that a lot of the problems in the real world, such as violence and poverty, can only be solved by people. The only "magical" way to stop people from being violent, for example, would be a mass mind control wizardry, which aside from requiring a heck of a lot of power, would be ''incredibly'' immoral and lead to that wizard being deprived of their wizardry. The Lone Power may influence people to do wrong, but at the end of the day, it's all about free will. No wizard would mess with that.
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** When you know that you'll have eternity with the ones you love, a few decades apart might not seem so bad.



** That's because it is tangled. Probably due in part to the large gap of time between the writing of books four and five. WordofGod had this to say about timeline problems, during the writing of Wizard's Holiday: "As of 2003, Nita is fourteen in her world, but it's taken twenty of our years for her to reach that age. I doubt she'd be overly concerned by this seeming paradox, assuming that she ever came to perceive herself as fiction (and in wizardry, stranger things have happened.). In Nita's world, as in mine, it's always now."

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** That's because it is tangled. Probably due in part to the large gap of time between the writing of books four and five. WordofGod had this to say about timeline problems, during the writing of Wizard's Holiday: "As of 2003, Nita is fourteen in her world, but it's taken twenty of our years for her to reach that age. I doubt she'd be overly concerned by this seeming paradox, assuming that she ever came to perceive herself as fiction (and in wizardry, stranger things have happened.).happened). In Nita's world, as in mine, it's always now."




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** Also, bear in mind that for all her maturity, she is still a teenager, and the Lone Power was responsible for her mom's death. I think a certain amount of vindictive satisfaction is pretty understandable.




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** Maybe he's giving the benefit of the doubt and assumes that the wood is artificial?
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** "...you really didn’t need to bring it back. This was withdrawn from circulation months ago." [[https://dduane.tumblr.com/post/67067166879/young-wizards-30-day-otp-challenge-day-16-doing-their by Word of Author]]

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** Part of it also seems to be that this is a competition for people who specialize in writing new spells, and, Callahan's Unfavorable Instigation aside, we haven't seen that much from the main characters. Also - There Are No Accidents; if it would have benefited any of them to compete, they would have been called to do so, but it seems they were benefited more by mentoring. (Note how it's pointed out that at first blush, Penn should have been paired with ''Dairine''.)




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** Word of Author at [[https://dduane.tumblr.com/post/48265994353/what-did-the-new-york-schoolboard-ever-end-up her tumblr]]: "most likely they had [the Learjet] hauled away, title-searched and then sold at auction. As for the gold: there wouldn’t have been ethical constraints against Tom and Carl keeping it, since it came to them accidentally. But the ethics of wizardry as it’s practiced in many Earthly cultures suggest that those who have adequate financial resources to meet their physical needs should consider using at least some of their disposable income to help those less well financially endowed, as this would tend to slow entropy locally. So I suspect several charities they favor got hefty donations in the aftermath. Ditto with the star sapphires, though I have a feeling Tom probably kept one of them to use as a paperweight."


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** Also, see the bit where Carl explains why wizards don't just cure cancer. Sometimes the answer is, "This is wizardry, not magic."
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** Both are possible. However, it's also possible that Tom and Carl quietly disposed of that stuff, maybe by transforming it into other, less valuable things.
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** [[BecauseISaidSo Because entropy.]] The backstory makes it pretty clear that everything would be exactly the kind of utopia the OP describes, except that the [[BigBad Lone Power]] decided to kick over everybody's sand castle. Even wizardry is affected--the energy that goes into a spell has to come from ''somewhere''. And in the third book, they look into the idea of eliminating entropy, but find that attaining sufficient understanding of entropy to even know where to start would take several hundred years and leave ''the entire universe'' in a state of AndIMustScream for the duration.

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<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>

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\n----\n<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>----
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** "Here's something that bugs me about tons of different fictional universes" And that's the beginning of the problem. If you read the books regarding this universe, and concentrate on what it is instead of what other fictional universes aren't, you find out that there is always a price for every wizardry, and that there is a very, very powerful and very, very evil being at work. Between the two, even a wizard often adapts to problems and limitations within the world through mundane means, because of the problems inherent in trying to use magic for every little thing.
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After initially respnding, then thinking it over, delelting the item in question because it's not a Headscratcher. It's someone complaining about a character and trying to work in a Mary Sue entry thru a backdoor. Headscratchers are for real questions about the work, not for complaining about characters you don't like. Mary Sue is flamebait, and should never be listed on a work's pages. Use the Reviews, if you feel that strongly about it.


* When is someone going to give Carmela a pair of [[CoolShades Kamina's shades]]? She's an over-the-top, self-parodying Mary Sue. She needs to just get magic, put on the shades, and then blow all her power on hitting the Lone One with a giant drill or something equally ridiculous before it actually gets grating.
** I can't even tell what this is saying, but I get the vague impression that it is trying to insult Carmela, so let me just say that I beg to differ.
** Even worse, they seem to be making fun of [[Anime/TengenToppaGurrenLagann Kamina]]. [[Anime/TengenToppaGurrenLagann Who the hell do they think they are?!]]
** Besides, sunglasses are sooooo [[TheEighties 1980's.]]
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* If the universe and all its rules can be so freely decided by wizards, why doesn't everyone live in a utopia? Why do non-wizards still generally live lives similar to people in the real world, with all the limitations we have no choice but to deal with? Those limitations only exist because the way the universe works is completely out of our control. In a perfect world, everyone would have full control over their own existence, never having to worry about any factors outside their control like death, and giving everyone whatever kind of life or experience they most want would be the primary rule that determines how reality operates. In the real world, this is an ideal that's hopelessly impossible, but in a world where the very laws of the universe can be rewritten by some people, there's no reason the universe should be anything else. Yet instead of this, most people still have to deal with all the same problems and limitations we have in the real world, forcing them to adapt through mundane means like us when they really shouldn't have to. Is every single wizard perfectly content leaving most other people with an existence that, while often enjoyable, is filled with needless limitations and leaves so much to be desired, when they could have so much more?

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* Here's something that bugs me about tons of different fictional universes, and even real-world religious belief systems. If the universe and all its rules can be so freely decided by wizards, why doesn't everyone live in a utopia? Why do non-wizards still generally live lives similar to people in the real world, with all the limitations we have no choice but to deal with? Those limitations only exist because the way the universe works is completely out of our control. In a perfect world, everyone would have full control over their own existence, never having to worry about any factors outside their control like death, and giving everyone whatever kind of life or experience they most want would be the primary rule that determines how reality operates. In the real world, this is an ideal that's hopelessly impossible, but in a world where the very laws of the universe can be rewritten by some people, there's no reason the universe should be anything else. Yet instead of this, most people still have to deal with all the same problems and limitations we have in the real world, forcing them to adapt through mundane means like us when they really shouldn't have to. Is every single wizard perfectly content leaving most other people with an existence that, while often enjoyable, is filled with needless limitations and leaves so much to be desired, when they could have so much more?
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* If the universe and all its rules can be so freely decided by wizards, why doesn't everyone live in a utopia? Why do non-wizards still generally live lives similar to people in the real world, with all the limitations we have no choice but to deal with? Those limitations only exist because the way the universe works is completely out of our control. In a perfect world, everyone would have full control over their own existence, never having to worry about any factors outside their control like death, and giving everyone whatever kind of life or experience they most want would be the primary rule that determines how reality operates. In the real world, this is an ideal that's hopelessly impossible, but in a world where the very laws of the universe can be rewritten by some people, there's no reason the universe should be anything else. Yet instead of this, most people still have to deal with all the same problems and limitations we have in the real world, forcing them to adapt through mundane means like us when they really shouldn't have to. Is every single wizard perfectly content leaving most other people with an existence that, while often enjoyable, is filled with needless limitations and leaves so much to be desired, when they could have so much more?
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* What happens to all the stuff that Fred the White Hole emits in ''So You Want To Be A Wizard?'' He burps up things like a Lear jet, which would be hard to simply tow away and no one could just walk off with it. Not to mention the gold bars and opals he burps up at Tom and Carl's place! Did Tom and Carl take a rather expensive vacation that year, or do Kit and Nita now have their college paid for, or what?
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Answering a headscratcher that's more insult than true question



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** Besides, sunglasses are sooooo [[TheEighties 1980's.]]
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* In ''Games Wizards Play'', why aren't Dairine, Kit, or Nita considered eligible to compete in the Invitational? It can't be a question of age; Kit & Nita are in high school...but so is their mentee, Penn, who's stated to be about fifteen. Dairine is a couple years younger than Nita, so she's either in early high school, too, or in late middle school. Penn even makes a comment to the effect that implies Dair is younger than he is. So if Penn could be in the contest, why not Dair? The whole "because it's only every eleven years" explanation seems real shaky.
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* I'm not buying the two explanations above. The cultures thing: you can just as easily argue that there are cultures who accept cannibalism, so Filif shouldn't be shocked at all; the cultures who make things out of bones as "honor" are not in the majority, and such things still creep most of us out. We're not talking about honoring your ancestors here, either. We're talking about one species using another's dead bodies for common place things, without any honor or respect attached to it. For the first, Filif's reaction is shown almost immediately after he arrives, so he's had no chance to talk with Earth trees. It does not compute.
* on top of all that, why would Filif have a reaction to plants being eaten, anyway? He himself eats soil, which is decomposed plant and animal matter. On top of that, "plants" are not necessarily "trees". Typical vegetables are not of the same species as a tree; Filif getting upset over us eating plants because he's a plant is like a human getting upset over eating beef because we're animals, too. As for fruits, fruits are part of how a plant spreads its seeds (fruit eaten by animal, who excretes the seeds elsewhere); the fruits are designed to drop off. At worst, the idea of humans eating fruit shouldn't be any worse than the thought of swallowing semen.

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* ** I'm not buying the two explanations above. The cultures thing: you can just as easily argue that there are cultures who accept cannibalism, so Filif shouldn't be shocked at all; the cultures who make things out of bones as "honor" are not in the majority, and such things still creep most of us out. We're not talking about honoring your ancestors here, either. We're talking about one species using another's dead bodies for common place things, without any honor or respect attached to it. For the first, Filif's reaction is shown almost immediately after he arrives, so he's had no chance to talk with Earth trees. It does not compute.
* ** on top of all that, why would Filif have a reaction to plants being eaten, anyway? He himself eats soil, which is decomposed plant and animal matter. On top of that, "plants" are not necessarily "trees". Typical vegetables are not of the same species as a tree; Filif getting upset over us eating plants because he's a plant is like a human getting upset over eating beef because we're animals, too. As for fruits, fruits are part of how a plant spreads its seeds (fruit eaten by animal, who excretes the seeds elsewhere); the fruits are designed to drop off. At worst, the idea of humans eating fruit shouldn't be any worse than the thought of swallowing semen.
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* I'm not buying the two explanations above. The cultures thing: you can just as easily argue that there are cultures who accept cannibalism, so Filif shouldn't be shocked at all; the cultures who make things out of bones as "honor" are not in the majority, and such things still creep most of us out. We're not talking about honoring your ancestors here, either. We're talking about one species using another's dead bodies for common place things, without any honor or respect attached to it. For the first, Filif's reaction is shown almost immediately after he arrives, so he's had no chance to talk with Earth trees. It does not compute.
* on top of all that, why would Filif have a reaction to plants being eaten, anyway? He himself eats soil, which is decomposed plant and animal matter. On top of that, "plants" are not necessarily "trees". Typical vegetables are not of the same species as a tree; Filif getting upset over us eating plants because he's a plant is like a human getting upset over eating beef because we're animals, too. As for fruits, fruits are part of how a plant spreads its seeds (fruit eaten by animal, who excretes the seeds elsewhere); the fruits are designed to drop off. At worst, the idea of humans eating fruit shouldn't be any worse than the thought of swallowing semen.
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** Even worse, they seem to be making fun of [[TengenToppaGurrenLagann Kamina]]. [[TengenToppaGurrenLagann Who the hell do they think they are?!]]

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** Even worse, they seem to be making fun of [[TengenToppaGurrenLagann [[Anime/TengenToppaGurrenLagann Kamina]]. [[TengenToppaGurrenLagann [[Anime/TengenToppaGurrenLagann Who the hell do they think they are?!]]
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***I'm voting for Ronan being older than most, either way: at one point, Nita muses that wizards don't get the offer until there's a situation that they are the best solution to: apparently, the Powers feel very strongly about wizards having as much of a normal childhood as possible (for the emotional/mental stability). I got the impression that Ronan's only been a wizard for a few years, (surely he would have had at least an inkling about his passenger if he'd been a wizard for four or five years?) and he's at least 18 when introduced (during the gathering at the pub, Nita accidentally drinks from Ronan's glass instead of hers, and it's obviously alcoholic - probably Guinness. The drinking age in the UK is 18).
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** Once Nita had formally taken up the mantle of the Silent Lord, she couldn't back out without ruining the entire ritual. They may have wanted to let her out, but none of them had the power to.


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** It's also possible that Filif thought all of the stuff was made of deadwood or otherwise acquired without cutting down any trees. There are cultures where making things out of a dead person's bones is considered a way of honoring them.

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**** The Lone One was allowed back in Timeheart. She even complained that The One will redeem just about anyone--including her. I don't think any human, no matter how evil, is as bad as the inventor of death.
**** Timeheart is for everyone, not just the wizards. Nita and Kit met the Lotus Esprit and Ed there.
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** Even worse, they seem to be making fun of [[TenganToppaGurrenLagann Kamina]]. [[TenganToppaGurrenLagann Who the hell do they think they are?!]]

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** Even worse, they seem to be making fun of [[TenganToppaGurrenLagann [[TengenToppaGurrenLagann Kamina]]. [[TenganToppaGurrenLagann [[TengenToppaGurrenLagann Who the hell do they think they are?!]]
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** Even worse, they seem to be making fun of [[TeppanToppaGurrenLagann Kamina]]. [[TeppanToppaGurrenLagann Who the hell do they think they are?!]]

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** Even worse, they seem to be making fun of [[TeppanToppaGurrenLagann [[TenganToppaGurrenLagann Kamina]]. [[TeppanToppaGurrenLagann [[TenganToppaGurrenLagann Who the hell do they think they are?!]]

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* So in ''A Wizard's Holiday'', Filif has a huge issue with us humans eating plants, and Darine takes great pains to keep him from the salad bar. Filif is a tree. Wouldn't he have a much '''bigger''' issue with the Callahans' tables, cabinets, furniture, house fixtures? Wood, though, is what he's made of; it'd be like us humans walking into Filif's house and seeing stuff made out of human skin & bone.

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* So in ''A Wizard's Holiday'', Filif has a huge issue with us humans eating plants, and Darine takes great pains to keep him from the salad bar. Filif is a tree. Wouldn't he have a much '''bigger''' issue with the Callahans' tables, cabinets, furniture, house fixtures? Wood, though, is what he's made of; it'd be like us humans walking into Filif's house and seeing stuff made out of human skin & bone. bone.
** That's addressed in the first book. When Nita first talks with the tree in her back garden, she talks about how humans have destroyed the forests and how many trees are cut down for paper and furniture, the tree says that they knew it would happen and they accept their fate. So maybe Filif knows this since he must have talked with his Earth tree cousins during his visit, but the subject of food obviously never came up.

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I\'m sorry, but we don\'t need tropers names on the Headscratchers page, it makes it look cluttered


DalekKanNoladti: when is someone going to give Carmela a pair of [[CoolShades Kamina's shades]]? She's an over-the-top, self-parodying Mary Sue. She needs to just get magic, put on the shades, and then blow all her power on hitting the Lone One with a giant drill or something equally ridiculous before it actually gets grating.
* I can't even tell what this is saying, but I get the vague impression that it is trying to insult Carmela, so let me just say that I beg to differ.

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DalekKanNoladti: when * When is someone going to give Carmela a pair of [[CoolShades Kamina's shades]]? She's an over-the-top, self-parodying Mary Sue. She needs to just get magic, put on the shades, and then blow all her power on hitting the Lone One with a giant drill or something equally ridiculous before it actually gets grating.
* ** I can't even tell what this is saying, but I get the vague impression that it is trying to insult Carmela, so let me just say that I beg to differ.



{{Heliomance}}: Nita's manual came from the library. What's more, she didn't have her card on her the day she took it out, and was enjoined to bring it back after the weekend. How has she got away with holding on to it for years?
* It's not a normal book, and it was specifically meant for her to find. I think it's more than possible the librarian just quietly forgot it existed.
* ^ It's a magic book that doesn't even look the same to everyone who sees it. It's pretty easy to assume the librarian simply forgot it ever existed. Or, to cover the whole equivalent exchange theme the book covers, Nita simply paid for the cost of the book to the library.

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{{Heliomance}}: * Nita's manual came from the library. What's more, she didn't have her card on her the day she took it out, and was enjoined to bring it back after the weekend. How has she got away with holding on to it for years?
* ** It's not a normal book, and it was specifically meant for her to find. I think it's more than possible the librarian just quietly forgot it existed.
* ^ ** It's a magic book that doesn't even look the same to everyone who sees it. It's pretty easy to assume the librarian simply forgot it ever existed. Or, to cover the whole equivalent exchange theme the book covers, Nita simply paid for the cost of the book to the library.



Also, when she was dealing with her mother's death, why didn't she just pop over to Timeheart and say hi?
* Misuse of wizardry. Going to Timeheart isn't something you do lightly, it was something she was supposed to deal with without using wizardry and third, it would be viewed as a personal, selfish sort of thing. Wizards aren't supposed to use magic for themselves in this kind of situation. Finally, Nita probably knows her mother isn't ''gone,'' merely that she isn't here anymore. She still can't see her again until she herself dies.

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* Also, when she was dealing with her mother's death, why didn't she just pop over to Timeheart and say hi?
* ** Misuse of wizardry. Going to Timeheart isn't something you do lightly, it was something she was supposed to deal with without using wizardry and third, it would be viewed as a personal, selfish sort of thing. Wizards aren't supposed to use magic for themselves in this kind of situation. Finally, Nita probably knows her mother isn't ''gone,'' merely that she isn't here anymore. She still can't see her again until she herself dies.



Is Timeheart for wizards only or if one happens to love you? It doesn't seem like muggles get to go otherwise. The second book specifically points out that Ed gets to go to Timeheart either because he had magic at the time of his death or because Nita loved him. Not because he was a living sentient being one stepped removed from being a Power or anything like that.

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* Is Timeheart for wizards only or if one happens to love you? It doesn't seem like muggles get to go otherwise. The second book specifically points out that Ed gets to go to Timeheart either because he had magic at the time of his death or because Nita loved him. Not because he was a living sentient being one stepped removed from being a Power or anything like that.



ComputerSherpa: Does anyone else feel it's more than a bit unreasonable for the whales to hold Nita to her promise in ''Deep Wizardry''? Keeping one's promises is certainly important, but there are promises and there are promises, and insisting that someone sacrifice their life because they agreed to sing in a concert seems almost [[CharacterAlignment Lawful Evil]]. Ed says that at one point whale wizards would compete for the honor of being the Silent Singer; are they that low on wizards that they have to enlist a human the hard part of their ritual for them? And at any rate, despite her unusual maturity and the power the Powers have vested in her, Nita is still a ''child.'' Would they take a baby whale and ask it to sacrifice itself for the adults?
* They probably would. (Well, perhaps not a literal baby, but Nita was thirteen, so that wouldn't be a fair comparison anyways.) Children aren't really given a great deal of protection in the Young Wizards universe. What's more objectionable is that they pretty much tricked her into it.
* Yes, the whales are running exactly that low on wizards. That's why the half-trained young humpback was practically running the entire Song. There literally was no one else capable of being the sacrifice (excepting the end twist, of course). Anyway, the marine wizards kept forgetting that Nita and Kit weren't full grown and experienced. When Nita promised to play the Silent Singer, everyone was so grateful they didn't think too hard about what she actually knew about the situation. After the revelation that Nita had promised to do something without knowing what it was, none of the other wizards, on land or sea, took any steps to force her to do it. This was probably because they couldn't force her without ruining the Song anyway, but still. They never coerced her, they just explained how screwed everything would be if she dropped out.
* It wasn't the whales that trapped Nita in the role; it was Nita herself. No one asked her to sing the Silent Lord. She volunteered, and insisted that she wanted to do it when questioned, even after she'd been told by more than one reliable source to make sure she knew what she was getting into. And if Nita had not agreed to take the role, it ideally would have been a juvenile whale to sing the part - the reason that the Song of the Twelve is so powerful is the magnitude of the Silent Lord's sacrifice. It ''has'' to be someone giving up their entire life and potential for the good of the world - "Not old enough to love, as yet/but old enough to die indeed." Using a mature wizard might work a little, but you've got to have a kid willingly sacrifice themself for the full potency of the ritual to take effect. I wouldn't be surprised if the Silent Lord is often sung by a wizard on Ordeal.
* Justified by the blank check (was it "cheque"?) wizardry (The Moebius spell) in the first book; this is explicitly mentioned in the second. i.e. Nita promised to pay an unspecified price at a later date, the Powers then asked for a life. The second book plainly states that Nita's role in the song is payment for the spell.

BattleHamster: In ''A Wizard of Mars,'' it's revealed that the Lone Power almost always interferes with an Ordeal, and that if It doesn't, it's a really big deal, something that has only happened eleven times in the past five centuries in the ''galaxy''. But when she asks Ronan about his Ordeal in ''A Wizard Abroad'', he never mentions the Lone Power interfering, and (1) Nita isn't surprised or anything, plus (2) nothing is made of it (or has been yet). For 1, Did Nita just not know what a big deal it is? For 2, Did the Lone Power not interfere because Ronan was potential avatar of the One's Champion? Did the Lone Power subtly interfere in his Ordeal, and it's not mentioned? Or, most likely, is it ContinuityDrift?
* My inference from Ronan's account of his Ordeal was that the Lone Power was probably controlling or masquerading as the sea. (It was the sea involved, right? Been a while since I read ''A Wizard Abroad''.) That, or ContinuityDrift.
* Ronan's Ordeal isn't really about him taking in the sea, though that's what he has to do. It's about him protecting the invaders he hates so much. In fact, his then infra-affinity for water makes it easier for him to pull it off! Ronan's Ordeal is unusual because it's really subtle in comparison to the others we've seen, and relies on Ronan's own character being susceptible to the Lone Power's suggestions that he let the Romans die. Or, alternatively, ContinuityDrift

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ComputerSherpa: * Does anyone else feel it's more than a bit unreasonable for the whales to hold Nita to her promise in ''Deep Wizardry''? Keeping one's promises is certainly important, but there are promises and there are promises, and insisting that someone sacrifice their life because they agreed to sing in a concert seems almost [[CharacterAlignment Lawful Evil]]. Ed says that at one point whale wizards would compete for the honor of being the Silent Singer; are they that low on wizards that they have to enlist a human the hard part of their ritual for them? And at any rate, despite her unusual maturity and the power the Powers have vested in her, Nita is still a ''child.'' Would they take a baby whale and ask it to sacrifice itself for the adults?
* ** They probably would. (Well, perhaps not a literal baby, but Nita was thirteen, so that wouldn't be a fair comparison anyways.) Children aren't really given a great deal of protection in the Young Wizards universe. What's more objectionable is that they pretty much tricked her into it.
* ** Yes, the whales are running exactly that low on wizards. That's why the half-trained young humpback was practically running the entire Song. There literally was no one else capable of being the sacrifice (excepting the end twist, of course). Anyway, the marine wizards kept forgetting that Nita and Kit weren't full grown and experienced. When Nita promised to play the Silent Singer, everyone was so grateful they didn't think too hard about what she actually knew about the situation. After the revelation that Nita had promised to do something without knowing what it was, none of the other wizards, on land or sea, took any steps to force her to do it. This was probably because they couldn't force her without ruining the Song anyway, but still. They never coerced her, they just explained how screwed everything would be if she dropped out.
* ** It wasn't the whales that trapped Nita in the role; it was Nita herself. No one asked her to sing the Silent Lord. She volunteered, and insisted that she wanted to do it when questioned, even after she'd been told by more than one reliable source to make sure she knew what she was getting into. And if Nita had not agreed to take the role, it ideally would have been a juvenile whale to sing the part - the reason that the Song of the Twelve is so powerful is the magnitude of the Silent Lord's sacrifice. It ''has'' to be someone giving up their entire life and potential for the good of the world - "Not old enough to love, as yet/but old enough to die indeed." Using a mature wizard might work a little, but you've got to have a kid willingly sacrifice themself for the full potency of the ritual to take effect. I wouldn't be surprised if the Silent Lord is often sung by a wizard on Ordeal.
* ** Justified by the blank check (was it "cheque"?) wizardry (The Moebius spell) in the first book; this is explicitly mentioned in the second. i.e. Nita promised to pay an unspecified price at a later date, the Powers then asked for a life. The second book plainly states that Nita's role in the song is payment for the spell.

BattleHamster: * In ''A Wizard of Mars,'' it's revealed that the Lone Power almost always interferes with an Ordeal, and that if It doesn't, it's a really big deal, something that has only happened eleven times in the past five centuries in the ''galaxy''. But when she asks Ronan about his Ordeal in ''A Wizard Abroad'', he never mentions the Lone Power interfering, and (1) Nita isn't surprised or anything, plus (2) nothing is made of it (or has been yet). For 1, Did Nita just not know what a big deal it is? For 2, Did the Lone Power not interfere because Ronan was potential avatar of the One's Champion? Did the Lone Power subtly interfere in his Ordeal, and it's not mentioned? Or, most likely, is it ContinuityDrift?
* ** My inference from Ronan's account of his Ordeal was that the Lone Power was probably controlling or masquerading as the sea. (It was the sea involved, right? Been a while since I read ''A Wizard Abroad''.) That, or ContinuityDrift.
* ** Ronan's Ordeal isn't really about him taking in the sea, though that's what he has to do. It's about him protecting the invaders he hates so much. In fact, his then infra-affinity for water makes it easier for him to pull it off! Ronan's Ordeal is unusual because it's really subtle in comparison to the others we've seen, and relies on Ronan's own character being susceptible to the Lone Power's suggestions that he let the Romans die. Or, alternatively, ContinuityDrift



In High Wizardry, Dairine's manual copies her mind and "adds her engrams to its own" without asking... ''after'' making a big fuss over her wanting to link with the motherboard. Later in the series, the Defender plants a hidden message in her mind without her knowledge or consent. Aren't these actions kind of... [[MindRape not okay?]]
* In Wizardry, you aren't allowed to change something without that something's consent. If I'm thinking right, the Manual is more an extension of the Wizard who wields it as well as Magic (or, rather, the Manual is the link between Wizard and Magic). In So You Want To Be A Wizard (and subsequent novels) it's shown that the Manual automatically updates itself depending on the Wizard, which is basically what Dairine's Manual does with her mind. Also, someone planting a message is nowhere ''near'' MindRape, which is more along the lines of causing intense pain (physical or psychological) while going through someone's mind.
* Fair enough, I used a bad pothole there. It just bothered me because it seemed like she was being treated like a piece of hardware, a bit.
* I can see your point here, but there's also a fair bit of overlap with the visions that Nita or Arhu get in other books - or even in the same one. Those are basically also the Powers giving somebody information without their consent, often without including knowledge of what the information is supposed to 'mean'. It is definitely not the same thing, but some of the same questions apply - is it unethical to give somebody information without their consent if this information is not destructive to them (as, say, certain information would be destructive for Darryl)? It's also implied that the Defender Itself didn't know it had appended that info, if memory serves, so... yeah.

The timeline seems very tangled to me- I can't work out anybody's age or how long it is from one book to another.
* That's because it is tangled. Probably due in part to the large gap of time between the writing of books four and five. WordofGod had this to say about timeline problems, during the writing of Wizard's Holiday: "As of 2003, Nita is fourteen in her world, but it's taken twenty of our years for her to reach that age. I doubt she'd be overly concerned by this seeming paradox, assuming that she ever came to perceive herself as fiction (and in wizardry, stranger things have happened.). In Nita's world, as in mine, it's always now."
In the first book, it's implied that writing your name wrong in a spell changes you. However, in the fifth book, Nita casts a spell using her name that turns out to be wrong because she's changed in the interim. Instead of changing her, it simply doesn't work. Ehwhat?!?
* It's implied that it CAN cause changes, not, I think, that it will.
* The in-universe justification is that even contemplating accepting the Lone Power's [[DealWithTheDevil offer to cure her mom's cancer if she gives up her wizardry]] was a [[CantGetAwayWithNuthin violation of her Oath]], and [[DisproportionateRetribution her wizardry has been draining away as a result]]. Or something. It's been awhile since I've read that particular book. The point is, the change was in her ability to perform wizardry, so she needed [[BigDamnHeroes Kit to show up with that]] [[ChekhovsGun old copy of her name]].

Did anyone else find Nita's delight at seeing the Lone One suffer [[AFateWorseThanDeath A Fate Worse Than Death]] a little disturbing? At the beginning of A Wizard Alone, Nita has a dream about a clown being mocked by an audience, which we later find out is a representation for [[AndIMustScream how trapped Darryl feels]] during his Ordeal. Near the end of the book, we get to see her [[CircusOfFear Circus of Fear]] nightmare again, and it's made clear that the LP is now the sad clown cycling in circles indefinitely, rather than Darryl. She wakes up smiling over it. Nita is usually quite compassionate, [[SympathyForTheDevil even towards the Lone One]], which makes the moment seem really OOC.
* Good point! I always had a little nagging feeling when I read that, like it was an unsatisfying ending, but I never thought about it that specifically. Maybe it'll have repercussions later on? Nita's wizardly bills seem to be piling up (she paid for the blank-check, but then there's the years-of-her-life in HW, and the thing with the Lone One in TWD, and the huge wizardry in AWoM, all that stuff . . .)
* I've been thinking about that too! I mean, when you think about all of the huge wizardries (that just make the Lone Power hate her more and more) that she's done lately, and how so many characters get [[KilledOffForReal Killed Off For Real]] without too much fuss... it kind of makes you wonder if Nita's going to be around much longer. But, barring Dairine of course, Nita draws more parallels to the LP than any other wizard in the series. She doesn't suffer ''too'' much guilt over killing things, as long as she isn't friendly with them, like when she was killing the drows in AWAb. She was the one that was most affected by King Bug, she's the only main character to make a deal with the LP, the thing in AWAl... all kinds of little things like that. Maybe all of this is foreshadowing, and Nita is intended to become [[spoiler: another Hesper]]...? At the end of the series, maybe? After all, it's gonna take something big to pay off all those wizardry bills...

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* In High Wizardry, Dairine's manual copies her mind and "adds her engrams to its own" without asking... ''after'' making a big fuss over her wanting to link with the motherboard. Later in the series, the Defender plants a hidden message in her mind without her knowledge or consent. Aren't these actions kind of... [[MindRape not okay?]]
* ** In Wizardry, you aren't allowed to change something without that something's consent. If I'm thinking right, the Manual is more an extension of the Wizard who wields it as well as Magic (or, rather, the Manual is the link between Wizard and Magic). In So You Want To Be A Wizard (and subsequent novels) it's shown that the Manual automatically updates itself depending on the Wizard, which is basically what Dairine's Manual does with her mind. Also, someone planting a message is nowhere ''near'' MindRape, which is more along the lines of causing intense pain (physical or psychological) while going through someone's mind.
* ** Fair enough, I used a bad pothole there. It just bothered me because it seemed like she was being treated like a piece of hardware, a bit.
* ** I can see your point here, but there's also a fair bit of overlap with the visions that Nita or Arhu get in other books - or even in the same one. Those are basically also the Powers giving somebody information without their consent, often without including knowledge of what the information is supposed to 'mean'. It is definitely not the same thing, but some of the same questions apply - is it unethical to give somebody information without their consent if this information is not destructive to them (as, say, certain information would be destructive for Darryl)? It's also implied that the Defender Itself didn't know it had appended that info, if memory serves, so... yeah.

* The timeline seems very tangled to me- I can't work out anybody's age or how long it is from one book to another.
* ** That's because it is tangled. Probably due in part to the large gap of time between the writing of books four and five. WordofGod had this to say about timeline problems, during the writing of Wizard's Holiday: "As of 2003, Nita is fourteen in her world, but it's taken twenty of our years for her to reach that age. I doubt she'd be overly concerned by this seeming paradox, assuming that she ever came to perceive herself as fiction (and in wizardry, stranger things have happened.). In Nita's world, as in mine, it's always now."
"

*
In the first book, it's implied that writing your name wrong in a spell changes you. However, in the fifth book, Nita casts a spell using her name that turns out to be wrong because she's changed in the interim. Instead of changing her, it simply doesn't work. Ehwhat?!?
* ** It's implied that it CAN cause changes, not, I think, that it will.
* ** The in-universe justification is that even contemplating accepting the Lone Power's [[DealWithTheDevil offer to cure her mom's cancer if she gives up her wizardry]] was a [[CantGetAwayWithNuthin violation of her Oath]], and [[DisproportionateRetribution her wizardry has been draining away as a result]]. Or something. It's been awhile since I've read that particular book. The point is, the change was in her ability to perform wizardry, so she needed [[BigDamnHeroes Kit to show up with that]] [[ChekhovsGun old copy of her name]].

* Did anyone else find Nita's delight at seeing the Lone One suffer [[AFateWorseThanDeath A Fate Worse Than Death]] a little disturbing? At the beginning of A Wizard Alone, Nita has a dream about a clown being mocked by an audience, which we later find out is a representation for [[AndIMustScream how trapped Darryl feels]] during his Ordeal. Near the end of the book, we get to see her [[CircusOfFear Circus of Fear]] nightmare again, and it's made clear that the LP is now the sad clown cycling in circles indefinitely, rather than Darryl. She wakes up smiling over it. Nita is usually quite compassionate, [[SympathyForTheDevil even towards the Lone One]], which makes the moment seem really OOC.
* ** Good point! I always had a little nagging feeling when I read that, like it was an unsatisfying ending, but I never thought about it that specifically. Maybe it'll have repercussions later on? Nita's wizardly bills seem to be piling up (she paid for the blank-check, but then there's the years-of-her-life in HW, and the thing with the Lone One in TWD, and the huge wizardry in AWoM, all that stuff . . .)
* ** I've been thinking about that too! I mean, when you think about all of the huge wizardries (that just make the Lone Power hate her more and more) that she's done lately, and how so many characters get [[KilledOffForReal Killed Off For Real]] without too much fuss... it kind of makes you wonder if Nita's going to be around much longer. But, barring Dairine of course, Nita draws more parallels to the LP than any other wizard in the series. She doesn't suffer ''too'' much guilt over killing things, as long as she isn't friendly with them, like when she was killing the drows in AWAb. She was the one that was most affected by King Bug, she's the only main character to make a deal with the LP, the thing in AWAl... all kinds of little things like that. Maybe all of this is foreshadowing, and Nita is intended to become [[spoiler: another Hesper]]...? At the end of the series, maybe? After all, it's gonna take something big to pay off all those wizardry bills...



* Don't forget that the sad clown isn't the Lone Power in its entirety. It's only a fragment, which IIRC had already been described as a particularly aggressive version. No redeeming possible in this case, the best option being to trap it so it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Timeheart has the same kind of FridgeLogic that comes with all "living forever afterlife" scenarios, but this one in particular bothers me. Now that [[spoiler: Betty Callahan is dead [[TearJerker *sniff*]]]], what's going to happen if [[spoiler: Harry]] ever wants to get remarried? Or ever even dates another [[spoiler: woman]]? After they all die and go to Timeheart, won't that make for an awkward reunion?
* I don't think people in Timeheart would care about that sort of thing. There's actually a little known line in the Bible that addresses this, where someone asks Jesus about people who have multiple dead spouses and he replies that "in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven" (Matthew 22:30), presumably meaning the institution of binding marriage is done away with and people are either asexual or can love whoever they want to.

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* ** Don't forget that the sad clown isn't the Lone Power in its entirety. It's only a fragment, which IIRC had already been described as a particularly aggressive version. No redeeming possible in this case, the best option being to trap it so it doesn't hurt anyone else.

* Timeheart has the same kind of FridgeLogic that comes with all "living forever afterlife" scenarios, but this one in particular bothers me. Now that [[spoiler: Betty Callahan is dead [[TearJerker *sniff*]]]], what's going to happen if [[spoiler: Harry]] ever wants to get remarried? Or ever even dates another [[spoiler: woman]]? After they all die and go to Timeheart, won't that make for an awkward reunion?
* ** I don't think people in Timeheart would care about that sort of thing. There's actually a little known line in the Bible that addresses this, where someone asks Jesus about people who have multiple dead spouses and he replies that "in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven" (Matthew 22:30), presumably meaning the institution of binding marriage is done away with and people are either asexual or can love whoever they want to.



{{Tropers/Zenfrodo}}: So in ''A Wizard's Holiday'', Filif has a huge issue with us humans eating plants, and Darine takes great pains to keep him from the salad bar. Filif is a tree. Wouldn't he have a much '''bigger''' issue with the Callahans' tables, cabinets, furniture, house fixtures? Wood, though, is what he's made of; it'd be like us humans walking into Filif's house and seeing stuff made out of human skin & bone.

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{{Tropers/Zenfrodo}}: * So in ''A Wizard's Holiday'', Filif has a huge issue with us humans eating plants, and Darine takes great pains to keep him from the salad bar. Filif is a tree. Wouldn't he have a much '''bigger''' issue with the Callahans' tables, cabinets, furniture, house fixtures? Wood, though, is what he's made of; it'd be like us humans walking into Filif's house and seeing stuff made out of human skin & bone.
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**** The manual says Timeheart is/has "... things preserved in their fullest beauty forever, and still growing..." Nothing is purely evil in the Young Wizards universe, certainly not people. There is always a redeeming quality, some aspect of a person that was good or brave or admirable. Timeheart lets people be that, be those parts of themselves, all the time, unhindered by the rest and continuing to grow and improve. Perhaps even people like Hitler.



*** In SYWtbaW, Nita reads about Timeheart in the manual and she goes on to think "... In the middle of the description of things preserved in their fullest beauty forever, and still growing..." So it seems to me that, perhaps, Timeheart wouldn't change a person, so much as allow them to change. It takes them at their best, and allows them to continue to grow better, indefinitely. So foibles they were occasionally, or often, troubled by, become easy to ignore or get past. i.e., it doesn't make a Jealous Person no longer jealous, but if that jealousy was rooted in fear and low self-esteem, it might let the person see that there is no reason to fear, anymore, and they release the jealousy themselves.

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*** In SYWtbaW, the first book, Nita reads about Timeheart in the manual and she goes on to think is distracted "... In in the middle of the description of things preserved in their fullest beauty forever, and still growing..." So it seems to me that, perhaps, Perhaps Timeheart wouldn't change a person, so much as allow them to change. It takes them at their best, and allows them to continue to grow better, indefinitely. So foibles they were occasionally, or often, troubled by, become easy to ignore or get past. i.e., it doesn't make a Jealous Person no longer jealous, but if that jealousy was rooted in fear and low self-esteem, it might let the person see that there is no reason to fear, anymore, and they can release the jealousy themselves.
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*** In SYWtbaW, Nita reads about Timeheart in the manual and she goes on to think "... In the middle of the description of things preserved in their fullest beauty forever, and still growing..." So it seems to me that, perhaps, Timeheart wouldn't change a person, so much as allow them to change. It takes them at their best, and allows them to continue to grow better, indefinitely. So foibles they were occasionally, or often, troubled by, become easy to ignore or get past. i.e., it doesn't make a Jealous Person no longer jealous, but if that jealousy was rooted in fear and low self-esteem, it might let the person see that there is no reason to fear, anymore, and they release the jealousy themselves.



<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>

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<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>
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**** I always understood this to be the case. "There are no accidents". If Nita had had her card, then there would have been a record that the book had been taken out. As it was, she didn't and there was no record, allowing this incident to slip the Librarian's mind just as the Book itself had. Unless we assume that part of the magic of the book is in its being unnoticed by non-wizards, then we have to address all the other questions about where the book came from and how the publishers saw it and whether there are copies in other libraries...
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* I can see your point here, but there's also a fair bit of overlap with the visions that Nita or Arhu get in other books - or even in the same one. Those are basically also the Powers giving somebody information without their consent, often without including knowledge of what the information is supposed to 'mean'. It is definitely not the same thing, but some of the same questions apply - is it unethical to give somebody information without their consent if this information is not destructive to them (as, say, certain information would be destructive for Darryl)? It's also implied that the Defender Itself didn't know it had appended that info, if memory serves, so... yeah.
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**Even worse, they seem to be making fun of [[TeppanToppaGurrenLagann Kamina]]. [[TeppanToppaGurrenLagann Who the hell do they think they are?!]]

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