History Headscratchers / TheShining

*** Uhh...no. Tony isn't Danny from the future, he's a part of Danny's subconscious mind that serves to help him process the visions he's seeing. Remember, Danny's just five years old. In the novel, the imagery of Danny's visions is strange, it includes things like danger signs that Danny doesn't understand. That's how it seems to work, the visions are cobbled together from whatever psychic force Shiner's draw from. Tony is his own imagination's way of trying to interpret the visions. Danny sees Tony as older and more authoritative than himself because that's what his imagination brought him as a guide.

*** It's part of a rush of WONDERFULLY surreal eldritch images that I personally consider to be the film's CrowningMomentOfAwesome (or maybe more specifically the elevator part is). Would added context really make these images ''more'' powerful than they are as [[MindScrew mind screws]]? Really??

*** He had tunnel vision, the sort of idiocy that plagues many people. He was concentrating entirely on his mental shields, because he figured that Danny was calling out to him due to the hotel "awakening", and thus was concentrating on supernatural threats. He never considered that the EldritchAbomination that was the Overlook might actually know enough to ShootTheMageFirst...

*** [[WhatAnIdiot He's an idiot]]. Also, I think I may have been wrong about the Shining and precognition being sepperate, so it's possible that it simply works better with more immaterial, distant threats.

** Re-reading the first part of the book, IMHO it seems like they moved due to the loss of income when Jack lost his teaching job at Stovington. Jack's pride wouldn't let him take any money from Shockley, so it seems likely that they moved to more affordable climes. And it's not like Jack was looked on very favorably by other staff members - he and Shockley became friends because they both drank to excess.

** Not the actual scene itself, but here's the screenplay for the scene you're talking about.

* Why is it called "The Shining"? I know Danny's telepathy is called The Shining, but it has almost no importance to the movie.
** In the book, it's never referred to as "the Shining." It's either a verb (people "shine") or the noun is called "the shine." In an essay, King noted that the novel was originally called The Shine. Someone at the publisher thought it might be taken as something racist because the term might connote black shoeshine boys when we meet the (also black) cook, Dick Hallorann. And yes, that's just as stupid as it sounds. So the publishers changed the title to The Shining, which King never liked. As different from the novel as the movie is, the characters and concept are still adapted from the book so the adaptations have the same title.

*** Uhh... no. Tony isn't Danny from the future, he's a part of Danny's subconscious mind that serves to help him process the visions he's seeing. Remember, Danny's just five years old. In the novel, the imagery of Danny's visions is strange, it includes things like danger signs that Danny doesn't understand. That's how it seems to work, the visions are cobbled together from whatever psychic force Shiner's draw from. Tony is his own imagination's way of trying to interpret the visions. Danny sees Tony as older and more authoritative than himself because that's what his imagination brought him as a guide.

* Why is room 217 the only threatening room, since it sounds like several rooms had people die in them?

* If (in the novel) Tony is Danny from the future, does that mean [[SetRightWhatOnceWentWrong he came from a timeline where Jack succeeded in killing his family?]] In other words, where did Tony come from and why is he there?
** In the other movie (miniseries?) Danny from the future helped himself in the past, sort of a closed time loop, but went by the name Tony to avoid confusing young Danny.
*** Uhh... no. Tony isn't Danny from the future, he's a part of Danny's subconscious mind that serves to help him process the visions he's seeing. Remember, Danny's just five years old. In the novel, the imagery of Danny's visions is strange, it includes things like danger signs that Danny doesn't understand. That's how it seems to work, the visions are cobbled together from whatever psychic force Shiner's draw from. Tony is his own imagination's way of trying to interpret the visions. Danny sees Tony as older and more authoritative than himself because that's what his imagination brought him as a guide.
*** In the novel and the mini-series adaptation King did, Tony is Danny's future self. In the Kubrick film, he's not.
*** The movie never reveals just what Tony is, in the novel, Tony is Danny's future self sending mental projections into the past.
*** Maybe some of this is explained in Literature/DoctorSleep?
*** No. In fact, it gets more baffling as Abra starts interacting with Tony when she's very young (she thinks Dan is Tony's father for a while).
* Also something of a WhatHappenedToTheMouse: In the novel, Ullman (the manager) doesn't want to hire Jack because of what happened to Grady. He mentions, in passing, that he's more comfortable hiring a student or single guy as they have in the past. This must mean there have been OTHER caretakers. What happened to them? Did they just not "shine" enough? Were they too smart/not alcoholics/too strong for the hotel to get them?
** It's possible they either didn't have the same susceptibility Grady and the Torrances had, or that them being there alone meant there weren't other people around to exasperate their cabin fever. Remember, thousands of people stay at the Overlook yearly, and only a handful are ever confronted with any of the hotel's nasty secrets.

* Why did the family move to Boulder in the first place? I mean, lovely town and I'm very fond of it, but it's a long damn way from Vermont. Al Shockley got Jack the Overlook job. Was the idea that they would move to Boulder explicitly so Jack could take the caretaker position a few months afterward?
** Re-reading the first part of the book, IMHO it seems like they moved due to the loss of income when Jack lost his teaching job at Stovington. Jack's pride wouldn't let him take any money from Shockley, so it seems likely that they moved to more affordable climes. And it's not like Jack was looked on very favorably by other staff members - he and Shockley became friends because they both drank to excess.
* If the ghosts in the book and the mini-series wanted to kill Danny for his Shining, shouldn't they have tried to kill Dick prior to him trying to help Danny? Sure, he didn't Shine as strongly, but surely he had enough to at least be somewhat useful to them.
** Firstly because he was never there alone. He was always there during the on season and the hotel was limited in how it got him, and it wasn't strong enough to outright kill people anyway, just influence. Second, he was also smart enough to avoid the things that could have harmed him like the lady in the bath.
** As of ''Literature/DoctorSleep'' , we find out that Hallorann's coping mechanisms are extremely strict, and as Danny grows older, he teaches him how to compartmentalize (literally) the ghosts into boxes so they won't bother him again. While this is a bit of a RetCon, it explains how Hallorann was never harmed by anything in the hotel, along with the previous explanation that he was likely never alone.
** Hallorann was the cook, and the ghosts did not appear in the kitchen or cook's quarters (which is also the apartment where the Torrances live). There were certain areas of the hotel that were more dangerous than others, and Hallorann did have contact with some of them before the evil things were "powered up" by Danny's shine. He saw the topiary dog change positions. He went into the attic for something and the light went out and he stumbled around while it seemed like something was chasing him. And finally, after Dolores saw Mrs. Massey and got herself fired for screaming about it, Dick went to investigate. Mrs. Massey was not only there, she opened her eyes and started getting up before he ran. So yeah, the things in the hotel tried to get him when he was around them, but they weren't strong enough to do damage, and the later RetCon of his ability to compartmentalize helped a great deal.

** It could be symbolic in several ways. The Apollo 11 mission consisted of three people going to a remote, lifeless, unfamiliar location, much like the characters in the film. Also, Apollo 11 is a symbol of a triumphant USA, which is a recurring motif contrasting with the American Indian inspired hotel decor. For example, in an earlier scene Danny is wearing a red, white, and blue shirt. Ullmann mentions at one point that the hotel was built on an Indian burial ground, and that the builders fought off raids from local tribes during the construction. In the lobby, an American flag flutters above a collection of trophy-like displays of Indian artifacts. Then, we have the ominous photograph at the end which features a Fourth of July celebration. This is all in keeping with a popular interpretation that the hotel is haunted by vengeful spirits of natives whose burial ground was disturbed. Thus, according to this interpretation the patriotic symbols are a subtle way of representing the Torrences as targets of the spirits' hostility.

* I'm probably missing some context from the book, which I haven't read, unfortunately, but the scene from Jack "selling his soul" for a drink caught my attention. It was outright stated that all the alcohol was removed from the hotel for insurance reasons. So how in the world was Jack able to get a glass of bourbon from Lloyd, ghost or no ghost, and actually taste it, to boot?

** No big significance, according to [[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/movies/aide-to-kubrick-on-shining-scoffs-at-room-237-theories.html?_r=0 this article]]. Kubrick wanted Danny in a sweater, and a friend of the film's costume designer had knitted the sweater, so Kubrick used it because it was something a little kid would wear. Knitters make stuff like this all the time. In the novel, Wendy was a knitter, so it's fun to pretend Wendy or one of her relatives might have knitted that sweater for Danny.

** [[spoiler: Danny has both low-level telepathy (the titular Shining), and precognition. Halloran has only the former, and only knew that Danny was in trouble because Danny contacted him, which Halloran told him to do only in an emergency.]]
* This is more of a meta thing but why do people give the movie a MaybeMagicMaybeMundane trope? When I first saw it, it all looked as though the supernatural elements were all real in-universe and didn't know it was ever supposed to remotely be vague. Sure, I suppose Jack could've been crazy enough to see ghosts but his wife and kid saw ghosts as well. There's also the often-mentioned unlocking of the freezer but beyond that, there's Danny and Holloran's shinning together, how Danny got the bruises on his neck (it wasn't Jack so it must've been the lady in the tub as Danny mentioned), or the photo at the end of the movie. Oh, and Jack knew Holloran was coming to the hotel because Grady told him. Either Grady is a ghost or Jack's hallucinations can predict the future somehow. How can anyone argue this was mundane?
** First of all, as far as I know nobody questions that Danny and Holloran truly possess telepathic powers. What is questioned by many viewers is whether the ghosts are real. Most of the ghostly sightings come from Jack, who is clearly in the thralls of a mental breakdown. Young Danny, who also sees and hears the ghosts, also shows signs of mental illness. The only other character in the film who witnesses the ghosts is Wendy at the end when she's trying to get away from the murderous Jack. Since she's in a state of hysteria, her visions could easily be hallucinations. In short, none of the three main characters are reliable observers, and so it's possible to interpret the ghosts as existing only in their minds. (For more on this, see [[http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-the-shining-1980 Roger Ebert's analysis]] of the film.)

*** I don't agree that just because something supernatural or paranormal happens in a story, therefore anything goes. Indeed, the psychic abilities of the characters are a large part of what make their perceptions so ambiguous (again, read Ebert's analysis). Remember how Holloran describes the shining to Danny: it isn't just mind-reading, but an ability to see the past, and he suggests that the hotel has left traces of its past which psychics like himself and Danny can pick up. The overriding question is whether the "ghosts" encountered by Jack, Danny, and Wendy (and possibly Holloran) are physically present in the hotel or are simply visions they experience. The visions could be of people who did in fact once reside in the hotel, but that doesn't make them "ghosts" in the conventional sense. As for the "coincidence" of all the characters seeing ghosts, that isn't so clear-cut. Jack sees ghosts; Wendy and Danny merely see and/or talk to people who aren't there (a symptom of psychosis), and viewers tend to interpret them as also being ghosts, but that isn't the only possible explanation. The bottom line is that none of the major characters have a reliable perspective, and therefore it's difficult to tell what really went on in the hotel, even if they do tap into some otherworldly powers.

** The novel explicitly states that Danny's "Shine" is not only allowing him to see the ghosts, but is starting to power them up like a battery, to the point where they can reach out and interact with non-phsycics like Jack and Wendy. Kubrick didn't like the supernatural aspects of the story, believing it to be a pure phsycological horror, so he just used the parts from the book he thought would work best on film and left it up to the viewer to draw their own conclusions. This was directly opposite to King's original novel (which was overtly supernatural) and is why King has never liked the film.
** WordofGod is that the ghosts are real, but that it's meant to be ambiguous until Grady lets Jack out of the freezer:

* What did the photo at the ending mean? Was Jack "absorbed" into the hotel, or had he "always been the caretaker" (i.e.was some kind of reincarnation)?

** Actually that part bugs me too, simply because it seems to be the only moment in an otherwise intriguing MaybeMagicMaybeMundane movie in which there is no easy answer from the "Mundane" column. The ambiguity is perhaps shattered irrevocably, and we know we're in a haunted building for real. Because if not, how ''could'' Jack have escaped?? Neither Wendy nor Danny would have ever let him out (Danny even less so, I think, if he were in "Tony" mode), and Hallorrann (sp?) had not yet arrived. As far as we know, they're alone in the hotel, and Jack doesn't break ''through'' the door, assuming he even could. Didn't Kubrick say that the aspect of the story that fascinated him so much was the multiple possible interpretations?

** WordOfGod (see quote towards the top of the page) is that everything is meant to be ambiguous *until* Grady lets Jack out of the freezer. This moment is meant to end the ambiguity.
** Again - this is WordofGod related to the book. Not necessarily his film.

* Regarding the above deleted scene, apparently Ullman gives Danny a yellow ball as a {{Callback}} to the Room 237 scene. I didn't notice a yellow ball, but I uh - ahem - have this habit of looking a my hands during scary movies. Anybody else see this "yellow ball"? I figured it must be important if it was in the original ending...

*** Uhh... no. Tony isn't Danny from the future, he's a part of Danny's subconscious mind that serves to help him process the visions he's seeing. Remember, Danny's just five years old. In the novel, the imagery of Danny's visions is strange, it includes things like danger signs that Danny doesn't understand. That's how it seems to work, the visions are cobbled together from whatever Psychic force Shiner's draw from. Tony is his own imaginations way of trying to interpret the visions. Danny sees Tony as older and more authoritative than himself because that's what his imagination brought him as a guide.

* Also something of a WhatHappenedToTheMouse : In the novel, Ullman (the manager) doesn't want to hire Jack because of what happened to Grady. He mentions, in passing, that he's more comfortable hiring a student or single guy as they have in the past. This must mean there have been OTHER caretakers. What happened to them? Did they just not "shine" enough? Were they too smart/not alcoholics/too strong for the hotel to get them?
** Its possible they either didnt have the same susceptibility Grady and the Torrances had, or that them being there alone meant there werent other people around to exasperate their cabin fever. Remember, thousands of people stay at the Overlook yearly, and only a handful are ever confronted with any of the hotels nasty secrets.

** In the book, it's never referred to as "the Shining." It's either a verb (people "shine") or the noun is called "the shine." In an essay, King noted that the novel was originally called The Shine. Someone at the publisher thought it might be taken as something racist because the term might connote black shoeshine boys when we meet the (also African American) cook, Dick Hallorann. And yes, that's just as stupid as it sounds. So the publishers changed the title to The Shining, which King never liked. As different from the novel as the movie is, the characters and concept are still adapted from the book so the adaptations have the same title.
** In the book, Danny's and Jack's "shine" is also the reason the hotel is as active as it is. To people with lesser "shine" (like Halloran) the hotel can only produce frightening images at worst. It's when someone like Danny, Jack, or presumably Grady come along with more "shine" that it starts to get really dangerous. So without "the Shining" the story would be pretty dull.
* Okay, I may be totally dumb about this one, but... Why does Danny carefully follows his steps backwards into the labyrinth ? I understand this is a way to find back the entrance, but it's also the surest way to stumble into Jack, who is also following Danny's steps. How does he manages to lure Jack ''and'' find the exit?

*** Her name is Mrs Massey. In the book, Watson tells Jack about how she arrived at the hotel sometime before the story begins (it doesn't specify when, although it doesn't seem to have been that long) with her lover, a young man. One afternoon, he left the hotel and didn't come back (it's never specified what actually happened to him), and not long after that, she killed herself in the bath. At no point in the book does she magically become younger (Watson says she was about sixty) and then make out with Jack, although she does try to strangle Danny. In the book, Dick and a maid called Delores Vickery (who Dick describes as having 'a little bit of shine to her') also saw her.

** Wendy did not want to kill Jack even after he made it clear that he wanted to kill her. Remember that after she knocked him out with the bat that she locked him into the room with the non-perishable food where he could easily survive for days or even months. She could have chosen the meat locker instead which would have killed him in hours, or she could have just kept hitting him the bat until he died. She didn't. Her goal was to evade Jack and escape with Danny, not to kill Jack. The knife, like the bat before it, was a last resort that she did not want to use. IRL, not wanting to kill someone you love even when they become violent toward you is very common. The Kubrick version of Wendy reacts to events in a realistic way that does not fit the ideal that we tend to expect from fiction.

*** "For the purposes of telling the story, my view is that the paranormal is genuine. Jack's mental state serves only to prepare him for the murder, and to temporarily mislead the audience... As the supernatural events occurred you searched for an explanation, and the most likely one seemed to be that the strange things that were happening would finally be explained as the products of Jack's imagination. It's not until Grady (the ghost of the former caretaker who axed his family to death) slides open the bolt of the larder door allowing Jack to escape, that you are left with no other explanation but the supernatural.*
** The above WordofGod is specifically (in context) related to the Steven King novel. The section that has been edited with elipsis is: "It's what I found so particularly clever about the way the novel was written. As the supernatural events..." and the line which follows is "...explanation but the supernatural. The novel is by no means a serious literary work, but the plot is for the most part extremely well worked out, and for a film that is often all that really matters." Stephen King's book had moving firehoses and topiary, as well.

*** In the movie, however, it is [[BigLippedAlligatorMoment never explained, and is never mentioned again, making the whole scene entirely pointless]]. Yes, a somewhat relavant plot point can become utterly pointless if done different in another interpretation.

*** It was a vision of something that happened in the hotel once. Perverse partyers linger beyond their welcome. What else is happening in the film?

** WordofGod (see quote towards the top of the page) is that everything is meant to be ambiguous *until* Grady lets Jack out of the freezer. This moment is meant to end the ambiguity.

* In the film, the biggest jump scare is [[spoiler:Halloran's violent death]]. Halloran already knew that the Torrances were in danger, particularly Danny... if he can know that Danny's in trouble from across the coast, how can he not know [[spoiler: that there's a madman with an axe less than ten feet in front of him?]]

* In the film, the biggest jump scare is [[spoiler:Halloran's violent death]]. Halloran already knew that the Torrences were in danger, particularly Danny... if he can know that Danny's in trouble from across the coast, how can he not know [[spoiler: that there's a madman with an axe less than ten feet in front of him?]]